Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by hirtmoles31, Apr 27, 2014.
By everyone. Judges in the latter part of their career, fans, experts, so underrated.
I'm surprised to see you include fans on this list. Not on this board. I think if someone created a poll about the "real" winners in SLC, B&S would win in a landslide.
Nah, I'd say the often robbed Shishkova/Naumov were most underappreciated.
Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze are in my mind the best pairs team of all time - their 2002 SLC SP was perfect
I think that both mentioned pairs are fabulous. Naumov was doing a great job coaching years back. I enjoyed watching his work as a skater and coach.
B&S were in my opinion the last of Moskvina's pairs that really understood Tamara's style and could handle it. Yuko/Alex have not really mastered it but I digress. I loved B&S. Their dominance and unmatched elegance are captivating.
nah, I loved them, but I actually would have to say Bechke and Petrov and Kovarikova and Novotny as the most underappreciated. They had some really lovely programs, and I hear nary a word about either pair.
No, I think Petrova/Tikhonov should be added to the underappreciated list though.
B&P and K&N were not underappreciated. They were inconsistent.
I think Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze may have been underappreciated by the judges at the time when Sale/Pelletier were in favor, but in terms of fandom, I find them to be overrated actually. Although I do think they are one of the best pairs of all time, I find people overcompensate for them due to the Pairs scandal. They overstate the brilliance of Meditation which was really a generic Russian classical 6.0 pairs routine. Sure it was difficult and I admire the highlight moves, but overall, I don't think it was a very effective vehicle for them. Other than their SLC SP and their Chaplin LP, I don't know if I'd say any of their routines were exactly memorable. That said, their choreography is way superior to anything I've seen in the past four years and most of what I've seen from pairs since the advent of COP.
Their skating was wonderful and there's much to be admired and should be studied by the pairs of today, but they were inconsistent and sometimes their technique was shaky. Also, their lifts and death spirals were a inferior to Sale/Pelletier's. In fact, I'd say people try really hard to minimize Sale/Pelletier's good qualities which is weird because I thought Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze deserved gold in SLC.
They were way underrated by judges in 2000-2002, and by skating experts and fans, especialy commentators and skating experts, all the way from the Nagano controversy until their retirement.
At the time, I didn't think they were. But now, I believe that they were absolutely under-appreciated - and because of that, we have probably lost an opportunity to see some amazing work from them. Looking back, the 'rivalry' with S&P seems so artificial because the level of skating was simply not the same, IMO. Three things went against B&S. First, everyone was sick of 'Russian domination' and beating 'the Russians' became an obsession. Regardless of how wonderful the Russians were. Second, B&S were forever compared to G&G. That's something no one can live up to. Because of G&G's personal connection more then anything else. And while G&G weren't always perfect, they were perfect at the most opportune times. But people forget the level of difficulty that B&S had to accomplish vs. G&G. With increased difficulty it becomes that much more difficult to be 'perfect'. And third, a lot of fans didn't feel emotionally connected with B&S because of Elena's introverted personality and presentation style. I loved them. But only now I appreciate how amazing they were.
My short answer: Yes.
They were a gorgeous team and I loved them, but they were headcases (especially Anton)! I felt like the judges wanted to reward them so badly, but they had complete meltdowns at the most important times.
IMO Elena had more problems than Anton, if you look at their competitions over the years, and not just the two Olympics. Many of their meltdowns were caused by her mistakes. Anton really had just one mistake in the 98 Olympics and I don't blame him or her in it much because of their inexperience. In 2002 they actually got it done, with one minor mistake in the LP, but by that time the politics were strongly against them, and only a perfect skate to match their Lady Caliph would have helped them, and I am not even sure about that.
By reading forums one would think that they are this pair everyone is supposed to be admiring because they are the best of the best and a gold standart and whatnot. As someone who doesn't like their style I always found it irritating.
I agree with much of this and think B/S were largely overrated. They clearly had the judges favour in 98 (Nagano) and only a fall at the end of the LP put them second behind D/K.
There SP in 2002 was truly a masterpiece and their Meditation was beautifully choreographed, but not skated to perfection. I liked their Chaplin better because Elena showed some emotion in that program.
I think the judges favoured them because they were such a beautiful pair and agree that a lot of people have downplayed S/P's good qualities subsequent to SLC.
I miss both B/S and S/P, and S/Z - to me that era of pairs was better than the current one and all three of those pairs pushed each other. V/T haven't reached the level of B/S IMO because they just haven't had the time to really gel as a time. And much as I appreciate S/S, I don't think they quite reached the same artistic level as the other three teams.
The fact that D/R are one of the top pairs speaks volumes about the pairs field today. I mean no offense to them as they are a strong and hard-working pair, but they don't yet compare to other bronze medal contenders of the past, such as S/Z, P/T, Zhangs. Even Takahashi/Tran had more of the 'look' to me. Eric and Megan are just oddly matched physically.
That said, they are fierce competitors and I look forward to seeing their programs next year. The best may be yet to come from them.
Sale & Pelletier are easily the most overrated pairs team in history, and nobody else even comes close. They were even winning with major mistakes over clean skates by B&S for awhile. What a joke. So glad they are retired and Volosozhar & Trankov, Berezhaya & Sikharulidze, and even Shen & Zhao and Savcheko & Szolkowy are all way better and greater teams than they are.
How can Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze be overrated when they skated cleanly sometimes and still lost to a majorly inferior pair like Sale & Pelletier with falls and major errors, but when they make a small error and S&P are clean all hell breaks lose. They were clearly favored by the judges at the 98 Olympics as they were by far the best team of that relatively weak field. That isnt being overated or being a judges pet.
I would rank them:
1. Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze and Voloshzar & Trankov tied
3. Shen & Zhao
4. Savchenko & Szolkowy
5. Crybaby Sale & David adultress Pelletier who deserved maybe 20% of their so called wins in their career. One of the most overscored skaters in history.
Of course, they have fan and non-fans, but I don't see how you can say this...
They won Euros, Worlds, Olympics Gold and Silver, with falls, because they were truly great. And they are still remembered 12 years after they retired.
Yes they are for sure. IMO the best pair team in history yet nobody recognizes them as even being in the same league as teams like Gordeeva & Grinkov and the other first tier Russian greats these days. I wouldnt be surprised if most even consider teams like Volosozhar & Trankov and Shen & Zhao as greater in history than them now which is crazy. Way underrated by judges, skating fans, and skating experts in the early 2000s too as proven by Sale & Pelletier's MANY undeserved wins over them, the unwarranted controveries over their 98 Olympic silver, 99 world title, 2002 Olympic title which were all justifiable results (even if reasonably debateable), and that spurned by both experts and fans alike. I am glad these days they do seem to get more respect by some hardcore skating fans than used to be, but still nowhere near enough for their amazing talents.
I really don't get where this is coming from. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze is probably one of the most adored pairs on this forum. I agree that they were underscored from some time in 2000-2002 due to many factors, but skating fans are always putting them near the top of the list of best pairs skaters of all time. People go out of their way to say that and show how Sale/Pelletier robbed them and are so inferior in almost every conceivable way. IMO, people don't really criticize them here.
I dont think most even on this forum, while they are very liked and appreciated, would put them on par with a team like Gordeeva & Grinkov, which IMO they deserve to be. I do agree they are well appreciated still on this forum, but the general public that follows skating far less so than on this forum. In any case while they were competing at the top from 98-2002, and even while they were pros, they were far underappreciated by pretty much everyone, dealing with controversial judging, commentators and fans whining about judging being in their favor despite that in actuality it was blatantly against them for the most part, and just general negativity and underappreciation.
I think it depends on your perspective. I guess I don't fully appreciate any argument that states that the general public under-appreciated them considering that I don't even expect the general public to remember the names of the American Ice Dancers that won the gold medal in Sochi unless they watch Dancing with the Stars. They seemed to receive a warm welcome in the SLC exhibition (and the audience seemed wowed by them. I only care about what people who still follow skating closely think when it comes to these retrospectives because we're the only ones who spend all of our time doing this sort of thing. It is of my opinion that as much as I love Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, they do not get the same level of criticism of other skaters/teams who have the same notoriety and success and titles while making errors. It is like the Pairs scandal made people very protective of them because of the initial harsh treatment they received that increased tenfold once the judging scandal was revealed.
I mean by something in between the skating nerds who frequent a forum like this, and the once every 4 year fan. The casual fan who doesnt watch every competition, but still buys tickets to a skating competition that comes in their area about once a year if they have the time, and generally follow what is going on. These are actually the ones most responsible for rating and how much money the sport pulls in (since the really casual wont add much outside the Olympics, and the really diehard are still the small minority). To these people I dont sense they are that highly valued, but I could be wrong.
If your last point is true then it is well deserved IMO. They deserve every bit of that protection and perhaps even overrating by some to compensate for how they were treated at those Games which was the most disgusting exhibition of athlete media abuse I ever saw. That it came due to a victory over a team who had a slew of controversial wins over them in the past 2 years with worse errors than B&S had in SLC, which went unreported and ignored by everyone, made it all the worse.
I love B/S. I think it was a great team and still watch them from time to time (more often than G/G). But the fact is that they weren’t so perfect in their FD in SLC. And although they undeservedly lost some competitions before, it unfortunately doesn’t mean they needed to win in the next big event as some kind of compensation for the previous losses. But they still had the gold medal. The fact that they needed to share their place with another team (which skated really great), is not such a big tragedy in my book. Actually just like VIETgrlTerifa said, it seems that after this whole scandal people started to love them even more.
If I would categorize myself as an uber of any team it would be B&S and I dont think they were unappreciated. Not overall in their career. What happened in SLC didnt have much to do with them but with the background politicking.
Sotnikova has an Olympic gold medal ahead of 2 people who most believe skated far better than she did, not just a bit better. Yet she didnt have to suffer the indignity of sharing her gold medal. Nobody but B&S has. If B&S have to share their Olympic gold with the perennialy overmarked Sale & Pelletier who only arguably skated a bit better than night (which I dont even think they did btw), then S&P should have to share about 3 or 4 previous golds with B&S who they won competitions over despite sometimes skating far worse.
Why are B&S held to the standard of being perfect, and if they arent they are treated like common criminals and held to all the well worn cliches of Russian mafia judging, Russians overscored, held up Russians, etc...because they won an event he barely put his foot down on a jump; while a lower quality pair like S&P were allowed to win competitions with glaring jump errors by Jamie- often falling, popping, or stumbling out of some major jump element in both programs with barely a mention. Such double standards and incredible bias.
I think you are too emotional. If it was another team, which you are not so fond of, you wouldn’t bring the results from completely different events (like Sotnikova’s gold in Sochi) to prove your point. The fact that there were so many controversies in other competitions ever since the figure skating competitions started to be organised, doesn’t justify your arguments.
And saying that B/S were treated like some common criminals is exaggeration.
I think I am not emotional and my comments are more than fair. If I were speaking through emotion believe me I would say far worse things about S&P than I have said in this thread. Emotional would be your thinly veiled whining for about 20 pages that your beloved T&D didnt win in the Lillehammer thread. Pointing out there are hundreds of worse results than the SLC pairs event in skating history and nobody else had to share a gold medal, let alone be subjected to the insane abuse B&S had to endure (and all for one of the most overscored teams in skating history who had several more blatantly wrong victories of B&S themselves than the close SLC contest) is 100% valid to the point at hand.
Of course you are emotional, and by bringing another thread, which has nothing to do with this one and some personal issues, only proves this. When I think that somebody should win, at least I try to find some arguments (of course you don’t have to agree with them) why I think so. Your arguments sound like this -
B/S shouldn’t have shared the gold with S/P:
- because it has never happened to anybody,
- because Sotnikova won in Sochi,
- because they lost to S/P in previous competitions, when they should have won.
And I will repeat I love B/S. I just don’t like your arguments. And I know from other threads that usually you are more reasonable
I mean skating fans' treatment of B/S is a cakewalk compared to what Sale/Pelletier receive to this very day. About those fans who are in-between posting here and the once every-four-year fan, I don't know if they are that many to even make a difference. And those that do exist probably only remember them as the Russian pair and the Canadian pair and don't know all of the facts or much about skating, at least in-depth. I don't know why we care so much about those opinions outside the context of marketing and trying to make sure we keep those fans and expand from those fans.
I don't see B/S as being underappreciated either. I would also consider myself a B/S uber. I never would have given gold to Sale/Pelletier in SLC because I too considered everything about Elena/Anton's skating vastly superior to S/P. However, there was no getting around that 2nd gold in SLC because of the split in the panel after the French vote was eliminated. So I don't begrudge S/P their gold and I don't see how anyone could. But I also don't consider B/S's gold tarnished in any way. I re-watch their programs again and again. I can't think of another pair that has achieved the same ethereal quality on the ice.
You do realize that they were not responsible for the judging improprieties at SLC and the decision to award the second gold medal, yes?
They were disappointed when they initially received silver - and surprised, because they thought that a clean skate would win them the gold. Some fans, coaches and choreographers were also surprised. However, they did receive their silver medal with dignity, and were ready to move on.
Jamie was interviewed on Canadian TV during Sochi. When asked about getting the second gold in SLC, she said it was a miserable experience for both pairs. She said she had become attached to her silver medal, and didn't want to give it back.
I think both golds are tarnished. Having to do a second ceremony robbed both pairs of their Olympic moment - as Jamie indicated in what she said above. B/Z's gold was in question, regardless of whether or not you agreed with the results. Hugely stressful for them - for both pairs.
Ultimately, fans were robbed because two fabulous pairs stopped competing. Had the scandal not occurred, maybe one or both would have stayed in a season or two more. Both pairs had room to grow, IMO.
Who were those two wonderful teams. Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze stopped competing, but who was the other wonderful team who did? Shen & Zhao and Totmianina & Marinin continued.
IMO B&S were underappreciated while they were competing and better appreciated now because there has not been any other team since then that have the "wow" factor that they did on the ice. Not to disregard the talent of the current teams, none of them draws me into the performance(s) like B&S or M&D. That's why they're one of the kind. Just like the notion "we don't know how good we have it until we no longer have it" - it's true for me. I've always been a fan but I appreciate them a lot more now and miss them dearly.
Sorry, but are the people who claim that S&P displayed ANY kind of dignity in this whole process living in some kind of fantasy bubble? Their repulsive reaction was one of the most disgusting displays of unsportsmanlike behaviour in the history of figure skating (only second to Harding's antics). If you want to see a graceful reaction to an (arguably) unfair loss, please watch the pairs medal ceremony of the 1994 Olympics. M&D had much more reason to complain about the judging in Lillehammer because they weren't even close to winning despite skating better than G&G. Yet, they accepted their silver and said G&G deserved their win. This is how one loses with dignity... S&P really put me off all Canadian skaters.
B&S had the "X-factor". There was just something magical about them and their programmes are unforgettable. Elena's story, her beautiful skating, Anton's elegance were all quite perfect. Their only problem was that they couldn't handle pressure, especially Anton. They just gifted their Gold in 1998 to a terrible pair and they would have legitimately won in 2002 if they stayed clean. Their nerves always got the better of them at big events.
Some people on this board make Sale & Pelletier sound unfit to place in the top 10 in 2002...
I remember B&S were a spectacular team, but I don't remember them having really lived up to their full potential consistently in technique, landing big tricks, and some years even artistically. (Their radetzky waltz program )
I hated Love Story and figured S&P gave up the gold once they went back to that tripe, but they were the only ones who could come close to B&S in general.
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