Any singles skaters in modern times unbeatable whole careers if clean

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by usova94gold, Aug 9, 2013.

Skaters who would be always unbeatable if clean

  1. Kim

    49.4%
  2. Yagudin

    28.9%
  3. Plushenko

    21.7%
  4. Asada

    9.6%
  5. Kwan

    10.8%
  6. Stojko

    2.4%
  7. Ito

    24.1%
  8. Witt

    10.8%
  9. Browning

    13.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Looking back in skating history there are many pairs and dance teams who were considered always unbeatable if they went clean, especialy dance. However are there any women and men who were unbeatable their whole careers if they went clean. I mean excluding the early years of their careers before the matured, and talking about only from the 1980s until today. Here are some possible candidates for that and which ones I would pick as yes or no:

    Michelle Kwan- I would say no. She lost the 98 Olympics to Lipinski even skating cleanly, many thought she should have lost the 96 Worlds to Chen despite skating cleanly, she could have potentially lost anytime to Slutskaya (and perhaps at times Butyrskaya) from 2000-2002 even skating cleanly, and she could have potentially lost anytime to Cohen even skating cleanly from 2003-2005, and to many skaters in the final season or two of her career.

    Yu Na Kim- I would say yes. I dont think there is any event from her senior debut in fall 2006 until today she would have lost skating cleanly. Some might argue there are periods a clean Mao would have had a chance vs a clean Kim like the 2006-2007 season, maybe even the 2007-2008 season, and maybe now, but that is moot since Mao never skates cleanly anyway. Besides the scoring evidence suggests Kim would probably have the edge all those periods even had both gone clean anyway.

    Alexei Yagudin- I would say no. I have seen him skate perfectly or nearly perfectly and still lose to Plushenko. At the 2001 Grand Prix final his only mistake was putting a foot slightly down on the 2nd quad and he still lost handily. Even had he done had that slight error he probably still loses. In the short program he skated cleanly many times and lost to Plushenko, so that probably would have carried to the long a few of those times too.

    Evgeny Plushenko- Again the answer is no. Just as Yagudin always had a chance even vs a clean Plushenko, a clean Yagudin always had a chance even vs a clean Plushenko. Plushenko skated perfectly and still lost the 2001-2002 Grand Prix final to Yagudin who had some mistakes.

    Midori Ito- I would say yes. The only ones who might have had a shot vs a clean Ito are Yamaguchi with all of the triple lutz-triple toe, 2nd triple lutz, and a clean triple salchow to give her 7 triples (would still lose tech. to Ito but might win it on the 2nd mark) or Harding with one of her stellar 91 performances with the triple axel. However Harding only delivered that level of performance twice and both were in competitions in the U.S which Ito was never going to be at, and Yamaguchi only delivered this twice and both in competitions in the U.S Ito was never going to be at.

    Mao Asada- I would say no. Even skating cleanly she was always losing to Kim also skating cleanly anytime from fall 2008 until her new jump layout and a bunch of rule changes starting in winter 2013 at the very least. She skated some cleanish performances and even lost to Ando several times in the 2010-2011 season.

    Elvis Stojko- I would say no. Urmanov or Kulik skating cleanly with a quad could beat Stojko skating cleanly even with a quad-triple even in his prime years.

    Any other candidates you can think of that might be unbeatable their whole careers (minus the early part) skating cleanly.
     
  2. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    I added Witt and Browning. I cant believe I forgot them. I picked Witt as unbeatable if she skated cleanly anytime from 82-88, but Browning as not. Browning skated perfectly at the 91 Worlds with 3 triple-triples and still nearly lost to Petrenko who did 0 triple-triples, including the triple axel-triple toe he was supposed to do and stumbled out of a triple loop.
     
  3. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I would say both Ito and Harding would be unbeatable if they went clean. Harding skated like that only twice, but one of them was at an International competition Skate America, which Ito could have been at. If Harding had kept her 89-91 form I would say only Ito can touch her.

    As for Ito no way do I see her losing to Yamaguchi if she hits her 3A in the SP, then goes clean in the LP with another 3A (and more likely in combo as well llike she did at Lalique). Her 89 NHK LP, 90 worlds LP, and 91 TL were pretty much unbeatable, and only Harding could have topped those.

    Witt was unbeatable if clean from 84-88, and alot of that also due to figures.

    Kim was unbeatable in the 09-10 season. I do think a clean Asada could beat her in 06-08 period, with a 3A if both are clean, however it isn't a guarentee for Asada either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  4. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Thing about Harding is she didnt always have the triple axel planned. In fact MOST events she didnt have it planned. Plus when she didnt she didnt even have a 2nd triple lutz or any of the harder triple-triples planned. I agree if she skated clean WITH the triple axel she was practically unbeatable, with only maybe a perfect Ito also with the triple axel having a chance to beat her. However when Harding didnt have a triple axel planned she was very beatable even clean. She was never a big judges favorite, the judges did not score her high artistically unless she landed the triple axel, and as already explained she typically had less technical content planned than even someone like Yamaguchi or Chen when she dropped the triple axel. The quality of her jumps and some of her other strong qualities were never rewarded enough without the triple axel to compensate either, and seemingly were only rewarded when she did the triple axel with it.

    Can you think of a single event Harding won skating well without the triple axel. 94 Nationals beating a 13 year old Kwan and splatty Bobek (and lets face it, Kerrigan would have been given the nod by U.S judges over even the very good Harding of those Nationals, if she simply stood up 3 triples or more) is the only one I can think of. The 89 Nationals where she skated awesome with all minus the triple axel and a then no artistry/only jumps (and tiny ones at that) Yamaguchi came from way behind after figures to beat her, and her 92 Olympic LP which was pretty much clean minus the triple axel miss and which was placed below a terrible Kerrigan, are references to how judges view a clean Harding minus the triple axel. Far from unbeatable to put it mildly.

    Ito always planned and attempted atleast one triple axel in the long program post 88 so no point doing a similar speculation for her.

    Although I am not sure for what its worth a hypothetical clean Kristi would be no threat to a clean Ito and Harding with the triple axel. Look at the marks the judges gave Kristi for 2 major mistakes at the 92 Games- 5.7s and 5.8s for technical, and all but 1 5.9 for presentation as the first skater in the final flight to boot. What would she have gotten had she gone clean, probably all 5.9s on the technical mark and 5.9s and 6.0s on the presentation mark? A clean Kristi would probably beat Ito or Harding by atleast .1 on the 2nd mark by almost every judge, and with the 2nd mark the tiebreaker that would mean Ito and Harding needing to beat her by .2 on the technical mark to come out ahead. Yet Kristi even with two major mistakes can get 5.7s and 5.8s technically. Then at the 91 and 92 Worlds missing the triple salchow she still got 5.8s and 5.9s technically. I never loved Kristi as an amateur, liked her way better as a professional, and found her frequently overscored so my assessment is based on the judges scores, not my personal opinion of her skating.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  5. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Harding won 89 Skate America without the 3A. There might have been a few other competitions in 88-90 period as well. I don't doubt she needed it because as we saw at 92 nationals and 92 Olympics without it she was marked much lower. She was penalized more than Ito at those Olympics even though both fell. I don't think she needed the second lutz if she landed everything else.
     
  6. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I think a clean Chan is unbeatable.
     
  7. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    It seemed to me that there was a rise in Yamaguchis scores in general after Harding and Ito were in a downward projection after their fall GP events. Kristi meanwhile started the Olympic year with her best ever performance to win nationals, then went clean to win the SP at the Olympics. I do think she was viewed as the complete package, which neither Ito or Harding were considred, so if they didn't hit to their potential (or even came close to it as it was) then Yamaguchi was the bygone favorite. I do think she was overscored, even though she clearly deserved her Olympic gold medal. Ito and Harding just made it alot easier for the judges by underperforming.

    Another way of looking at is, if Ito hit her programs like she did at the 1989 worlds or Harding like 91 Skate America would Yamaguchi have any hope of winning even as being considered the "package". I honestly don't think she would be placed above those performances.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  8. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    NIL. Because in a competition, it is not only dependable on how one skates, but how the others skate as well. I also think it is not fair to compare skaters who skated in 6.0 and figures era, and post COP because the criteria is different.

    Post COP, I think .... Mao and Kim MAY be hard to beat if they are clean bearing in mind what they are capable of.
     
  9. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    Right.
    Although at 09WC SP, a clean Chan with incredibly difficult program lost to Joubert with not-clean 4T3T & Lysacek without quad. :eek:
     
  10. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    That was before Chan had begun to emerge as the dominant skater and before he had a quad. So of course he wasnt unbeatable then. He is now if clean (and sometimes even with 5 or 6 falls).
     
  11. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Ito was clean in the SP and LP's at Worlds 1990 and still lost. Skaters pre- 1991 had to do compulsory figures so being clean didn't matter much if they buried themselves in compulsories first like Ito did in 1990 so skaters from that period had to do more then skate clean in the SP and LP.
     
  12. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    At the 2001 GPF, Plushenko did 2 quads, both in combination, one is 4-3-2. Though Yagudin made one mistake, still the technical content was not enough. And judges made it clear, if Yagudin could skate to his potential, the win was his, because his program had more in-betweens. 00-01 season, it's more like Yagudin took a break, he's not really himself.

    The SP? The only time he skated cleanly and lost to Plushenko was 2001 so, actually he didn't skated clean, he underrated his quad. Underrotation was a mistake would be punished heavily during 6.0 too especially in a short program. Plus he had a disaster qualifying skate, the judges just wouldn't let him win like this.

    I need a hint seriously, how many other times he skated cleanly and lose to Plushenko in sp? I only remember Yagudin won 2000 euro sp with slightly mistake and Plushenko clean. An absolutely clean Yagudin won over an absolutely clean Plushenko handily in 2000 worlds sp.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  13. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    I agree that 06~07, 07~08 yuna was not unbeatable when she clean. And yes, I agree that clean Asada could beat her in that period.

    but kim was unbeatable in 08-09 when she went clean. She set SP world record when she went clean; 4cc, Worlds. In worlds, She had clean SP, close to clean FS but not clean, popped 3S in LP and got 207. she was first female skater who broke 200.In that season, Anyone could not close to 200 except her. I don't think clean asada would win clean kim in 08-09 season, of course It is not only applied to mao asada..
     
  14. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    If there were no figures than yes ito would be unbeatable. We saw at the 90' worlds that she was beaten even when winning the sp and fp.

    voted for kim aswell as ito

    i would vote michelle but it was seen that she was beatable when clean at the 98 olympics.
     
  15. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    ECH 2000, and 2000 WCH: Yes. But Plushenko was only 17, and Yagudin was two times world champion at that time. Two clean programs? The judges gave a little bit more points Yag, of course..
     
  16. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Plushenko was the golden boy of Russia LOL, Yagudin was a bad boy off the ice by that time, the judges were happily rooting for Plushenko.

    Ok, let's check the 2002 Olympics lp, Yagudin was clean, Plushenko with slight mistakes, but their jumping contents were actually equal, Yagudin won all the technical and presentation marks, a total sweep.
     
  17. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Although it would be very close and I cant say I know for certain, I think a clean Kim would have gotten the nod over a clean Asada even in 06-07 and 07-08. I have two barometers. The Grand Prix final LP of 07-08 where Asada cleanly executed her super difficult program with a triple axel and two triple-triples. Kim fell on her triple loop in her program which had a 6 points lower base value to begin with, and lost the LP by less than a point showing without the fall it was easily hers despite nowhere near the difficulty of Asada. Then the short program of Worlds in 2007. Asada even if you give her another 9-10 points for her missed combination (3 points for the automatic -3, 4.5 points for the base value of a single loop vs a triple, and some lavish GOE and a bit of PCS for a non disruptive error which is probably more than she gets but just being extreme for arguments sake) she still loses the short program to Kim and her slightly easier triple flip-triple toe combination.
     
  18. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Your points are great and you might well be right. Note I did vote for Ito so I am not sure at all on what I suggested.

    However I am looking at the 92 Olympics marks as a reference. Kristi with 2 major mistakes got 5.7s and 5.8s for technical merit and all 5.9s for artistic i mpression. Even those marks arent easy to beat for Ito and Harding already, although skating cleanly with a triple axel would certainly be possible as I have seen both get 5.9s and 6.0s for technical and 5.8s and 5.9s for presentation when clean with the big jump. Amazing how Harding's presentation scores go from like 5.3 without the triple axel to 5.9s with it, lol! I always believed a major mistake should be atleast .1 each and two would be atleast .1 on the artistic mark too. This would mean the judges giving 5.9s and 6.0s for technical and all 6.0s for artistic to Kristi had she gone clean though, and I dont believe that was happening so already the judges did not take what I believe were appropriate deductions in this place, which just shows they love her. However we have to assume higher than what she got for a clean skate dont we? Atleast 5.8s and 5.9s for technical and 5.9s with a couple 6.0s for presentation? Then if those were her marks I am not sure even a clean Ito or Harding with the triple axel could beat her, with the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. Maybe take a few judges, but not a majority.

    Then again maybe I am misreading the situation just looking at that one event. Maybe with Ito and Harding already out of gold contention in the short program they were determined to hand Kristi the long program right away as long as she did something credible as she was the only one left they could stomach winning. They didnt want to be stuck in a situation where by some miracle Nancy landed all 7 of her triples, or even 6, and they now had to give her the gold; or even worse Surya landed a clean quad plus 7 other clean triples with all the difficult combos she had planned, and they even had to give her the gold. So at that point Kristi landed the 2 lutzes, triple lutz-triple toe, and only 2 big misses, they were giving her the gold at that point no matter what; but had Tonya or Midori been higher after the short it would have been a different story with their marks for the skate she gave.
     
  19. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    How can anyone vote Asada. 2010 Olympics proves even clean she sometimes would lose (her 2 only mistakes didnt cost her 23 points, there is no possible way). So she is eliminated. Kwan I can atleast see someone rationalizing the 98 Olympics was an aberration, or even if clean wasnt truly her best; and if they are a huge fanboy somehow deluded themselves she was always beating Slutskaya in every event in 2000-2002 or at the 2005 Worlds if going clean.
     
  20. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    In GPF 2007, Asada's 3A, 3F+3T got minus GOEs. And at that time, Kim had 7 triples and all 5 kind of triples including 3Lo. not only Asada, kim had also much more difficult jump layout than now.
    I think in 07-08, if both of two go clean, they would be very close. I can't sure who would win.

    In SP in 2007 Worlds, Their Jump base value difference was very small. kim- 3F-3T/3Lz/2A=18.8 Asada- 3F-3Lo/3L/2A=19.8
    difficulty difference in score was almost nonexisted. In 2006 SA, Asada had clean SP and got almost 69. I guess if both of two did clean SP in one competition, Kim would win in SP by small gap.
    but in FS, I am sure clean Asada would beat clean kim. kim's FS score was not that high at that season. Asada made world record.
    In overall I think in 06-07 season, clean Asada would beat clean kim

    In summary, I think 06-07 season, clean Asada would beat clean kim. In 07-08 season, they would very close
    So I don't think in both of seasons, clean kim was unbeatable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  21. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Asada does not have good quality jumps, especialy compared to Kim. Even a clean skate by her will have some 0 or even slight -GOE. Anyone who watched Asada's 2007/2008 GPF LP would say that was a clean skate though, and with no UR calls it definitely was. It was also by far the cleanest skate of such a difficult program as she has EVER done by far a well, and probably ever will.
     
  22. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    As for 2006-2007 season it is hard to say for certain. However looking at Kim's Worlds LP she lost 10 points minimum on the two lutz falls to start (probably more since 4 points automaticaly for each fall and I am giving only 1 point in GOE for both, but she usually gets more than that), then another 7 and half points (assuming about 1 point in GOE again) on the triple salchow-double toe late she had discounted. The double toe from the salchow was meant to be on one of the lutzes so just switch that off, but one of her lutzes was also called a sequence so that is another couple points lost. Then a totally clean skate probably gains atleast 4 more points in PCS. Add it all up and she probably can score about 25 points more (especialy since she probably gets more than 1 point in GOE for a clean lutz like I said). That would take her to around 140, which is about the same as Asada would have gotten even totally clean.

    So while you say 06-07 would be clearly Asada and 07-08 very close, I would say 06-07 would be very close, and 07-08 would be clearly Kim winning, although not by the margin a clean Kim would have crushed a clean Asada by in 08-09, 09-2010, 2010-2011, 2012-2013 by yet. That is without even considering Mao has proven a clean skate by herself is almost impossible with the jumps she wants to attempt, while for Kim they are pretty easy to deliver.
     
  23. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I believe this is what happened in Albertville. Everyone was expecting the top 3 to be Kristi, Ito and Tonya. Once that was no longer, Kerrigan was able to get some extra points for her line and polish, and still be placed 3rd in that segment after a very mediocre technical skate. I still believe, going by their prior wins, that if Ito and Harding were clean in the SP, and skated with the 3A in the LP, Yamaguchis scores would not have been as high in either tech or artistic impression.
    There is an argument as is that both Ito and Harding should have placed higher in the LP portion (although it wouldnt have changed the results) with Midori winning the LP over Kristi, and Harding placing 3rd over Nancy.
     
  24. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree Asadas performance at that GPF and in the 2010 Olympics are probably the cleanest we will see from her with that technical difficulty. By 2008-2009 season Kim had in the bag if she went clean.
     
  25. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Although it accurately reflects reality that she isnt being picked for this, I am surprised Kwan has so few votes on this poll. I had the impression she was a goddess on this forum, to the point it usually sidesteps reality.
     
  26. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    ok They did in LP in 2007 GPF. But also think about scores in LP in 2008 worlds.
    kim did everything except she popped 3lz. Asada fell on 3A, got downgrade on second 3Lo in 3F+3Lo combination. and asada was behind to yuna kim about 2 points. In GOE? There were not much difference in goe on jumps what two did well. Asada got +1.0 GOE on every jumps that she hits except 2a-2lo-2lo, and wrong edge 3Lz. Asada GOEs: 1.43 on 3-3, 1.14 on 2a, 0.71 on 2a-2lo-2lo, 1.14 on 3Lo
    by contrast, The jumps that kim could get +1.0 GOE is only 3-3. kim's GOEs :1.8 on 3-3, 0.5 on 2a, 0.7 on 3lz-2t-2lo, 0.43 on 2a-3t, 0.7 on second 2a
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2008/WC08_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

    There are definitely judgement difference between 2007 GPF, 2008 Worlds. I don't know reason
    Anyway This version results says clean Asada would win clean kim in that season without any doubts
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  27. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Kim was badly injured at the 2008 Worlds and in really bad shape, and very sluggish, and had already done poorly in the short program which definitely affected how the judges scored her LP if she did anything other than a great performance (which she didnt). You can think what you want but others think differently as the high # of votes for Kim being unbeatable her whole career if she goes clean suggest. Along with that Mao isnt even capable of clean programs (especialy if you dont even consider her 2007 GPF LP, the cleanest skate she will do ever, ever, ever as clean) while Yu Na knows she can do them easily. Yu Na wouldnt even have to worry about a clean Mao with all her crazy jumps as there is no chance of that happening. Many years have shown this.

    Bottom line is if Kim had skated cleanly, which she has shown many times over she can easily do, she would have won every single event she entered from fall 2006. If there were brief periods a clean Mao could have beaten her, she never did it in any of the events Kim was in anyway, so Kim still only had to worry about herself to win each time.
     
  28. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Ito could have been unbeatable at 90 worlds as well if she hadn't bombed figures even worse than usual. Had she done figures similar to 89 worlds where she was 6th, Trenary would have no chance.
     
  29. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    When I think of Chan, I think of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPcPTXUh1uA

    And I don't care that it was at Nationals, but only that it was executed.

    So, are you trying to say Chan was robbed or that Lysacek and Joubert are just better than Chan?

    When I think of Lysacek, I think of a skater that won because of good execution of a well designed competitive program. When I think of Joubert, I think of empty programs enhanced by quads.
     
  30. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    In addition to above my post, There were also difference in PCS between GPF, and World. her PCS was 1 ahead of asada in LP in GPF. but In 2008 Worlds, her PCS was 2 points lower than Asada
    In this version result, It says kim was also underdog in PCS, not only GOE
    I know she was injured. but besides all that things, when just see two performances. 2007 GPF LP/2008 World LP
    In World, she looks a bit painful, less energetic than GPF, but there are not difference in quality of jumps between two competitions

    And I did not say clean kim has never been unbeatable skater. what I said was in 06-07/07-08 season kim was not unbeatable when she goes clean.