Another Duggar baby is on the way!

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by ilovepaydays, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. ArtisticFan

    ArtisticFan Well-Known Member

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    Michelle was 17 when she married Jim Bob. So there is another example.

    But it isn't like the girls can even go sign up for Christian Mingle. Potential suitors must go through Jim Bob to even approach the girl about a courtship. That man only sees dollar signs. While Josh and Anna make money for the family by being on the show, any daughter who gets married would essentially move away to be with her husband and his family. It isn't like there is an enclave of Gothard following people there in Northwest Arkansas. A child missing for an episode or two wouldn't be noticed, but one moving away would be noticed by viewers. Yes, there could be visits and vacations, but it would be a different aspect that I'm not sure Jim Bob could see the monetary value in at the moment.

    Many who are in the movement do value their privacy, modesty and humility. There is a hypocrisy with the Duggars' television cameras, news show appearances and publicity seeking that does not sit well with a young man who might want to marry one of the daughters. While the show portrays them as the royalty among overly fertile people, I'd think that quite a few "godly" young men would be turned off by the cameras, attention, and potential for being used.
  2. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly. The average age of first-time mothers in the U.S. is 25. Having three kids by 24 may be outside the norm, but having a child before 30 isn't.
  3. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    That's what makes it "newsworthy", for some people.

    At this juncture, I find Jim Bob Duggar "smarmy"/borderline offensive.
    He's using his family/beliefs as a money-making endeavour.
  4. ArtisticFan

    ArtisticFan Well-Known Member

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    I can't remember the comedian, but there was one who said she knew she had grown up when her response to a friend announcing a pregnancy went from, "Oh My God What are you going to do?" to "Congratulations."
    CanuckSk8r and (deleted member) like this.
  5. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    Average age is inevitably pulled downward by teenage pregnancies, though. Just like the average American woman supposedly wears a size 14 but I recently saw a story that that is the lowest selling size in stores. In circles where women are educated and pursue careers, not that many are popping out three babies by age 24, and more women are pursuing higher education than men.
  6. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I'm 31 and beginning to feel like I'm the only person left without a kid. Pretty much everyone I know started having kids around 25-28. 95% of these people went to college, many had their babies during grad (or in one case med) school. Most have 2 by now. My sample of friends composes 3 states due to various moves, so it isn't just a small region- though I do know that Texans tend to marry young, especially when compared to East Coast, so that skews it a bit.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  7. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I am :drama: that you don't care about my sneezing habits. What about Madonna? I heard she worked out yesterday, too. Is that news? :lol:

    Yeah, if it was Michelle, it would be newsworthy. Though congratulations to whichever Duggar brat it is. I'm sure they're excited and happy. :D

    As for "average age", statistics aren't predicative to the individual. Saying the average age is 25 doesn't mean hardly anyone under 25 has babies or even that most women are 25 when they have their first. I know plenty of women who got married out of high school and starting have kids soon after. It's not THAT unusual. Of course, it's not that unusual to go to college and wait until after to get married and have kids and there are enough women like me who waited until their 30s to get married and have kids too. You see plenty of us all along that spectrum for none of it to be all that unusual or newsworthy.
  8. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I believe in Israel the average age for Jewish women is now 27, though I don't think any of my friends (most of whom are in their early to mid thirties) had kids at that age, and 30 or so was probably the most common among those who do have kids. The national average is affected by religious women, who tend to marry young and have kids soon after; while families the size of the Duggars would be unusual even among the ultraorthodox, having more than ten children isn't that uncommon in certain religious communities here.

    I suspect most ultraorthodox women are much better educated than the Duggar girls, however.
  9. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    That might be, but the birth rate for women 35 and over is higher (14%) than the birth rate for teens (10%), so there's quite a bit of offset there, and while most young women try college, most of them drop out, too. The majority of women are not college educated and pursuing careers. There are far more women (and men) who have jobs.
  10. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Since what they are allowed to learn is dictated by their beliefs, I don't doubt that.
  11. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    A belated Gesundheit.
  12. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on! This only encourages the attention seeking behavior :D
  13. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    :lol: Good one. Next thing you know, I'll have my own reality show.
  14. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    People I know are often grandparents by age 30.
  15. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I would say 'disturbed and frightened by it' to be the more accurate term than 'contempt'?

    Do you put any limits on 'live and let live'? Are there any human practices or values that would cause you to draw the line? Any situations of racism, misogyny, exploitation, and injustice that you would give as exception to the rule?

    It's a pretty little maxim but you can use it to excuse almost any behaviour.
  16. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Yes, but this isn't it.
  17. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah. And I guess there are no lesbian OBs?

    It varies so much. I grew up in Seattle and most of my friends didn't start until very late 20s/early 30s. Then I moved to the Midwest, and it is a totally normal thing to get married in the early 20s and have 3-4 kids by age 30. Totally intentional, and not Quiverfull people either.
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    It is. They are exploiting their daughters and the misogyny and patriarchy means they can't realise their potential.
  19. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    I have multiple classmates (class of 2007) who already have more than 1 kid. Some have 3. Probably about half my class is either married or engaged, and most of the married ones have children already.
  20. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    I am in the Midwest. Not normal among the women I know at all. Even working in a Catholic school, my co-workers had children in their 30s not their 20s.

    I think this is not regional so much as influenced by education and often religion (as is the case for the Duggars). The young women I taught in an evangelical school married very young and had kids very young. Those who remained in that religious tradition, anyway. Those who went away from it and pursued an education did not have children young.
  21. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Is it the general sentiment here that having children when you're young is a bad thing?
  22. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Most people don't reach their potential.

    Oh, but the Duggar girls don't even have a chance.

    Neither do most people.

    On the scale of "People Who Don't Make The Most of Themselves Because Their Parents Totally Screwed Them Up," the Duggar girls are doing pretty well.

    I realize that in an ideal world, everyone's lives would reflect the values of the majority here--that life is all about getting a formal education, seeking self-fulfillment, and preferably living without religion at all--but it's not an ideal world . Isn't it for them to decide for themselves what self-fulfillment means? What is the difference between their parents telling them "This is how you should live in order to lead a good life" and everyone else telling them "This is how you should live in order to lead a good life"?

    None of us create ourselves, no matter how much we like to think we do.
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I don't think being religious precludes pursuing dreams and aspirations, developing a career or getting married at an older age if you so choose. I know religious women who have done all these things, or some of these things, rather than staying at home to look after their siblings while their mother has another baby that they will have to care for. The point most people here seem to be getting at is that the Duggar girls were never given a choice; they didn't choose their life, it was chosen for them. That's not to say they would have chosen college-career-marriage if they had other options, just that the decision doesn't appear to have even a been possibility for them.
  24. zaphyre14

    zaphyre14 Well-Known Member

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    Unless their parents have locked the children in the house every moment that they're not on TV, I don't think the girls have had any fewer choices than any child raised by strict parents, no matter what their religion. And in any case, none of the Duggar girls are married yet, are they? How do we know what they'll choose? And even if they do choose home, family, etc, who's to say it isn't their choice?
  25. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    This is FSU. You know there is no such thing as a "general sentiment."
  26. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    As some of you know, I have no problem with religion. Nor do I have any problem with childbearing in one's twenties (I had hoped to do it myself, only it didn't work out). But while I appreciate Prancer's point of view and think she expressed it well, I do think there are some spiritually abusive philosophies and practices that are part of the belief systems that the Duggars are associated with. When I say "spiritually abusive," I'm referring to things like coercion, degradation, and emotional blackmail -- to treating women and children as inferior and a means to an end. And as with most forms of abuse, while it's possible to walk away from them, it's not always easy.

    (For those who want to learn more on the subject, Hillary MacFarland's book "Quivering Daughters" is a good place to start.
    snoopy and (deleted member) like this.
  27. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    Yes. And that book is a very good place to start. As is Katheryn Joyce's Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement

    I would also suggest reading about Michael and Debi Pearl's "No Greater Joy" ministries which is linked and recommended on the Duggar family's website. Their child discipline materials have been linked to abusive deaths of very young children. The Duggars use their "blanket training" method and who knows what else from their very abusive philosophies that include corporal punishment even for infants. I'm sorry, but child abuse is not a topic that I will say "live and let live" about.
  28. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    And you know this how?
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  29. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    From the horse's mouth:

    http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/quiet-and-still-teaching-self-control.html

    Scroll to the bottom of this article where there is a screen cap of the Duggar family website's links to materials by the Pearls:

    http://duggarsblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/quiet-and-still-teaching-self-control.html

    On their current site this page links Vision Forum, ATI, The Botkin sisters' materials on "Stay at Home Daughters" and a number of other patriarchy organizations.

    http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/resources
  30. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    It has been a good while since we had the relativity discussion but I thought we had come to a consensus that it is a zero sum game to say we shouldn't be judgmental, or that we shouldn't advocate a particular viewpoint ...since that is also judgmental, or advocating a particular viewpoint. There is no way to pull yourself out of the equation and not be taking a position of proper behavior - even if you are advocating no position at all, that is still a position.

    I don't know dippy doo about the Duggars but I think patriarchy sucks. And I am happy to say it. :)
  31. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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  32. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Whatever genuine exposure the Duggar children may have had to the world outside/beliefs other than their own, is likely under tightly controlled conditions; which makes the idea of real "choice" in the the matter, questionable.
  33. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    You are very invested in these people being paragons of virtue, aren't you? Here is Michelle explaining how she does it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvsCI3O_sj4

    Note that the first link quotes an interview with Michelle. Do you need her to come to your house and show you her "To Train Up a Child" book? It has great material in it about hitting kids with piping. Or there is the Botkin sisters' book and site recommended on the Duggars' own website which teaches young women to strive to serve their fathers, think like their fathers and perhaps come to the Vision Forum daddy daughter retreat where they can shave their fathers as an act of servitude. Or Debi Pearl's book "Created to Be His Helpmeet" which explains to women that if their husband abuses them it is because they are not submissive enough.
  34. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Not at all. I wouldn't choose that lifestyle and think it's not a good way to raise children.
  35. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Of course it's a possibility. A probability? Maybe not. But it's not impossible.

    What did your parents tell you to do with your life?

    On FSU? I don't think that's ever happened.

    And that's great of you and all; now tell me why the Duggars should agree with you.
  36. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    PDilemma, thanks for detailing why I doubt that "choice" exists for/in families who practice this belief system.
  37. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I've never liked the way the Duggar parents force their four oldest daughters to act as unpaid full-time servants. Sure, it's common for kids to have chores, but this is far beyond that.
  38. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    Essentially, you are asking me to make an argument for my position - perfectly fine. I believe gender equality is a superior position to patriarchy -

    1) Based on an assumed a moral truth that women and men are equally free, and therefore should have equal ability to make their own choices about education, career and family. To restrict the choices of females to wife and mother, ruled by father or husband, denies any moral truth that women are created equal to men, and are created equally free, free to pursue options as they desire. Similarly, to limit the choices of males to bread winner and authoritarian denies their full agency.

    2) Because promoting gender equality can promote economic growth, increased GDP, and improved social welfare. http://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EX...theSitePK:7778063~contentMDK:22851055,00.html http://www.economonitor.com/blog/2013/03/gender-equality-pays-off-in-brazil/

    3) Diversity in leadership improves creativity, problem solving, morale, productivity, etc.

    http://www.neeley.tcu.edu/News_and_...in_Leadership_Gives_Companies_Advantages.aspx


    Do I think that would change the minds of the Duggars? No, but that is only partly the point. Advocating for your ideas helps ensure those ideas won't die. Religions know evangelism works. They have been doing it for millennia.
  39. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    They did not tell me to do anything other than to make sure I leave myself a variety of options (=do well enough in school). Other than that, I made my own choices and if I ever wanted their advice, I asked for it. Certainly they never imposed their beliefs on me.
  40. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    :lol: I was asking directly, not essentialyl, or so I thought.

    And those are all good arguments, although they address the issue from a standpoint irrelevant to the Duggars.

    So perhaps more to the point--in what way does it matter to any of your arguments that this one family does what they do--or even that people in their entire movement do what they do? All of your arguments (except the first one) were about society overall.

    There aren't enough of these people to make any difference to society. There is no chance that their way of life will become dominant or will be imposed on the rest of us. There is no indication that their movement is becoming widespread.

    So society will continue to develop as it will without the Duggars or their input.

    As for your moral argument, one must assume that it is true in order to agree with it. Let us say that most of us assume that it is true. Do we have the right to impose that particular belief on everyone?

    I'll bet the Duggar girls would say the same of their parents. Because your parents impose their beliefs on your every single day of your life with them--whether you realize it or not. There is no way to avoid it. I impose my beliefs on my children by living in the way that I think I should and raising them as I believe they should be raised. That's what parents do. You are your beliefs. It can't be any other way. If I believe that my children should make their own choices about their adult lives, then I am going to raise them that way--and impose upon them the responsiblity of making choices rather than choosing for them.