Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by alij, Jun 15, 2013.
Maybe she can give birth in the middle of the FS.
They could do some sort of gender-bender lift where Gwendal, um, dives down there... assuming Rasputin would allow it.
With credit to PrincessLeppard - all Gwendal needs is a cape and they'll be all set.
Russia's greatest love machine......
I just looked it up. Marina will be 38 at the Olympics. Gwendal will be 41. Have any skaters this old competed recently in ice dancing?
For me that happened when I saw Papadakis/Cizeron [unpopular opinion] I can't stand them, especially her. [/unpopular opinion]
But the CoP has protocols, with numbers, and levels, and stuff! All you have to do is look at the protocols and you'll understand why they deserved their spot!
Nozomi Watanabe turned 35 while competing in Toronto. Honestly, age isn't the first issue that comes to mind here.
I'm not crazy about P/C, but C/J started growing on me this past season. If any French ice dancers were to make a come back just for the sake of voidiness, why couldn't it be Loup/Bouquet :
This is just fascinating. Even as a publicity stunt. Even the idea of this as a publicity stunt.
If it was/is, it definitely was/is successful
Wouldn't they have to get the minimum tech score for SD and FD at a qualifying comp first?
Also, last time I saw a pic of Gwendal, he had short hair. How long can be grow it in 8 months? This is VERY important. How on earth will he compete with White otherwise??
I can't say I am not intrigued if they really try for a comeback. But I doubt it will happen.
I'm not going to lie, at first I thought this was utterly ridiculous. But the more I think about it, the more intrigued I am. I think Marina (and hopefully Gwendal as I'm still not sure if he even knows what's going on) may just want to compete in Sochi just to show the audience and possibly the other skaters what old school (My God, the late 90s and early 2000s are old school) ice dance is all about. If they some how qualify for Sochi...well, that just shows the lack of depth of French Ice Dancing or at least...the depths the Federation will go to to make this happen.
I think it'd be quite fun to see now. Many people are complaining that COP has killed the dancing out of ice dancing...let's see if Marina and Gwendal can bring it back from like 20th place.
This should end the speculation that Gwendal might not be aware of what's going on. He just doesn't sound as convinced as his partner that they can make a comeback at all, the article says. Funny that Gailhaguet thought A/P were not ready to compete in Turin or Vancouver but trusts them completely now. lol
I think the required elements make dance creatively harder than it used to be. And I think dance has particularly benefited from the new system. Excepting the SD, which I think is a mess, but that is not because of the system but because of the CD/OD mix, which really doesn't work well. Hopefully that will change.
V/M and D/S immediately come to mind as teams that have pushed the creative envelope. And lower ranked teams have as well - Poirier and Crone's 'Eleanor Ribgy' and the German (I think) Zombie routine for last Worlds, for example.
In the past there have been some creative masterpieces, for sure, but also a lot of empty dance programs and showy dance programs. Now you can't get away with just having a strong presence and putting on a show in ice dance, you have to meet technical requirements.
Creativity isn't something that a system can kill, IMO. Rather, it is something that will always shine through a system - any system - because it a driving force and inspiration for anyone involved in music/dance/performance, all of which are an aspect of figure skating. Some skaters will always find a way to blaze new creative territory and those who succeed in that endeavour will always be in a minority, because it is a difficult thing to do. Especially difficult when you have to do it on skates!
Who is D/S? Delobel/Schoenfelder? Denkova/Stavitsky? Domnina/Shabalin?
Why should it end speculation? This is exactly like the previous reports with Anissina being the only source commenting on a possible comeback - there are no direct quotes from Peizerat, and also nothing from Gailhaguet. And assuming Peizerat is aware, there is no indication that he's even considered the idea seriously.
Even with Peizerat currently unavailable, I am surprised that nobody at least contacted Gailhaguet to get a reaction.
V/M are not the team that would immediately come to my mind as pushing the creative envelope. Trying to do a sexy Carmen is hardly groundbreaking.
DelSchoes, P/B and the Kerrs, on the other hand, are good examples - but on the whole I disagree with the argument that the IJS has been good for ice dance. It may have made it more of an objective sport, but the actual dance part has suffered, IMO. Contorted lifts aren't something that I find particularly appealing, and the twizzles have been overemphasized, as far as I'm concerned.
There's a TBA at TEB, and I'm sure it would have their name on it if they go ahead with it. Carron/Jones already have two (USA and CHN) from coming in 12th at Worlds, and Papadakis/Cizeron have Rostelecom Cup the week afterwards. Maybe Anissina didn't contact Gailhauguet in time for GP selection and that's why the French Fed put one spot back into the pool and kept only two for TEB. If Gailhauguet knew this was in the works, and the conjecture is true that countries can only have one TBA, it's curious that he didn't assign P/C to TEB right away, and leave the TBA open, and, if need be, toss it back into the pool later.
CoP has protocols, with numbers and levels that will make it transparent if they don't deserve their spot.
I read this statement differently: to me, "Marina called Didier Gailhaguet who thought that the comeback was a wonderful idea.He reminded her that he tried to make them come back in 2006 and 2010 but they were not ready at the time." means he approached them, and their answer was that they weren't ready then." This time, Anissina is approaching him, presumably because she thinks she can be ready, and, surely a former World and Olympic champion might look at Carron/Jones and think, "Yup, we can be more ready than they are."
So in first interview - Marina said the French Fed approached her about the comeback. Now, she is the one with the idea.
I dont know what to think of this.
I was a huge fan of this team, but even I think this is a hoax. Or some bad medication.
I'll grant you that V/M are far from being the first and only dance team to do a sexy program, BUT putting a program on ice that utilized true modern dance movement, phrasing/syntax, and vocabulary IS creative and groundbreaking.
Creativity in ice dance is not defined by theme alone, as so many are prone to doing.
The first couple I remember who actually used modern dance movements were actually Marina and Gwendal in their Olympic free dance and I know because I had a dance teacher who had been a student of the choreographer who choreographed that free dance and he used similar movements in the choreographies we did in class. However, I have never seen any of the Duchesneys free dances, so I only know they are said to have been very modern. I'd deduce from that, they're likely to have used modern dance elements already!
On a different note, there's no real definition for contemporary/modern dance anyway, (which is why it's called contemporary/modern) so I have my doubts V/M were the first to do that one way or the other.
Well, let's remedy that. Start with this one.
As others have already noted, they weren't innovators in that regard, either. I'll grant that it was a departure from their previous programs, and they certainly deserve great credit for challenging themselves as they did.
What's the big deal? I think it would be cool for them to return. The goal is merely to compete, not medal! i would actually be VERY interested in seeing this if it comes to pass. Do I think that it will? NO. Would i love to see it? YES! Their performance should they return could be a highlight of the event and NOT because it is bad but quite the opposite.
I think that the thing that rubs people the wrong way is that if they are named to the team, some other team who has most likely been training for the past 4+ years will not be able to go. That is indeed unfair but so are most things in sport and life in general.
I don't get how A&P intend to do this though... I agree that the CoP has killed a lot of the creativity in ice dance. Even when it comes to the teams I like, I wonder if I wouldn't enjoy them a lot more under 6.0. Is Marina's hypothesis that today's teams are not creative, and that she can come up with programs that meet the highest levels and standards that will still be wonderfully dancy? Or are A&P just going to show an artistic and creative program with level 1 elements, or perhaps that won't even be credited as elements because they don't meet the basic standard? How will they even manage to meet the tech minimum score then?
The other thing is that I hate how A&P's skating is being ripped apart, when I want to remember it as it was (Marina has brought this on herself). I also don't think it would be fair for their appearance in Sochi (on the off chance it actually happened) to become some kind of referendum on the merits of 6.0 and CoP dance, showing how the great 6.0 dancers are incapable of competing under the new system... at the ages of 38 and 41. If they were young and fit and had actually been skating in shows, it would be a different thing.
Besides, IMO, D&V in Torino already basically showed that retired 6.0 dancers have a better understanding of music and program composition than most CoP dancers.... their programs were lovely. They even got me to like Phantom. They actually told the story. Some of the other teams, like DenSta, who grew up under 6.0, had way better CoP programs than most of today's teams, so I feel like this point has already been made much better than A&P could.
I would much rather see Marina display this vision as a coach or choreographer with some young and talented skaters. Her Jesus program was my favorite Johnny Weir Program. I adored the Petit Prince program Gwendal did for Stannick Jeannette (pre-CoP). I don't remember any other CoP era choreography from either Marina or Gwendal. I would love to see her work with V&M, but I suppose her pro-European bias will not allow it.... I&K or P&B would be great.
The concept behind the free dance of the German team is strikingly similar to a couple of routines I saw in So You Think You Can Dance a few years back - 2009 or 2010. So either great minds think alike or Averbukh watched SYTYCD and got massive inspiration from there. If my second assumption is correct and if stealing other people's ideas is creativeness, perhaps more ice dance choreographers should watch shows like SYTYCD? Averbukh first used the zombie theme for a dance on the floor he choreographed for Yagudin & partner in his Ice Age project - same music as the one Z/G performed their FD to.
Maybe I am naïve enough as to regard Marina as a reliable source. But if Marina has never checked with Gwendal on the matter since last winter when she started seriously thinking of a comeback and also started looking for sponsors, if her conversation with Didier never took place and everything has been going on strictly in her head, how would all this reflect on her? Mythomania is a medical condition, isn't it? lol
Well, ä word for word translation of that part in the article would be "I called Didier Gailhaguet (...), he told me he found the idea magnificent. He reminded me he had already wanted us to return for the Turin Games (2006) and the Vancouver Games (2010) but he thought we were not ready."
Exactly!!! I'm pretty sure Shen & Zhao also did a similar zombie routine to the same song, also inspired by SYTYCD.
I don't consider DelSchoes or the Kerrs to be bastions of creativity either... what is so creative about skating to Muse season after season, or using music from a boy band, or skating in a kilt when you're Scottish and it's already been done by Candeloro? As for DelSchoes, IMO using gloves and masks, sign language, and voiceovers in three different languages is just camp, not creativity. Creativity in skating has to do with movement, and when you strip away that stuff, their actual programs, skating, and elements all look the same to me. If that is what passes for creativity under this system, then I have to agree with Marina that the system sucks. (I'd pick P&B, V&M, and DenSta as the best examples of creativity under this system, but three teams is not nearly enough! And all 3 teams had some boring programs too D&L were somewhat creative like in 2004 and 2005)
Candeloro skated a folk OD?
I think creativity in skating can take more than one form - it can be creativity of movement, of elements (e.g. lifts), of concepts, of presentation, in terms of music chosen and interpreted, and more. Obviously not all fans will value each of these forms of creativity equally - in my case, for instance, I really don't care what sort of pretzel-like position a skater can get herself into during a lift. I am shallow and just want lifts that look pretty.
The Kerrs skated to Muse twice, with different concepts each time. I can't recall anyone skating to Muse in competition before them; correct me if I'm wrong. They skated to Linkin Park, they had that Aliens program, The Last of the Mohicans, and The Matrix when it was still fairly original to skate to it. They managed to work around limitations including the lack of height difference and the fact that as siblings, anything romantic/passionate was not going to work for them; successfully dealing with such constraints requires some degree of creativity for sure (if one wants to argue that the Duschenays maybe did that better, that's fine). Skating a folk OD identified with one's own culture is not original, but since there aren't that many Scottish teams, it did seem different - certainly in a season in which half the teams skated what was meant to pass for Eastern European/Russian ODs.
DelSchoes too used various concepts and had some cool ideas. I didn't really pay attention to them until near the end of their career, so I can't comment further.
I don't think she is intentionally misrepresenting things, but I do feel she may view this plan as more of a done deal than it truly is.
I'm loving Zhulin's reaction: "If she's returning to big competition, I better start practicing too."
Contemporary and modern are, in fact, two different styles of dance that are not interchangeable or synonymous with each other. There are definitons for both. Modern dance was developed in the early half of the 20th century (~1900-1950). The development of contemporary dance started in the mid 20th century (~1950). Although there are different styles within modern, Modern dance has it's own vocabulary and technique (movement initiated from the torso instead of the feet (as it is in ballet); specific movements of the head, torso, arms, hands, and feet; specific use of body weight; specific character of movement, etc.). Also, while ballet strives to create an illusion of freedom of gravity, modern dance takes it into account. So, yes, modern dance has it's own set of techniques and dance vocabulary. As an important side note, modern was developed in part as a protest/rebellion to ballet (and vaudeville). Contemporary dance does not have it's own vocabulary/techinques. Instead, it borrows from multiple styles, including (but not limited to) ballet, jazz, and modern. Contemporary isn't technique; it's a choreography thing that fuses multiple dance styles together.
Yes, there have been teams in the past who have worked with modern dance choreographers and whose programs were termed modern. BUT, and this is perhaps where I should have gone into more detail earlier, at best, these dances did not utilize true modern dance movement in anything close to its entirety. They used the head and limb movements, but those movements did not derive from the torso nor did they employ things like fall/recovery, contract/release, lower center of gravity (dropping carriage of weight down lower in the body, which is characteristic of modern dance but at direct odds to ballet and skating, in which the center of gravity is up higher in the body). Unlike the teams of the past (The Duchesneys, U/Z, A/P) who have used head and limb movements borrowed from modern, V/M actually used their torsos to drive their movement, dropped their weight, etc. That's where they broke ground. It wasn't simply modern dance styling; it was real modern dance in how their movement was derived...all while on skates. There's a great article on ice-dance.com from back in the winter that gets into the difficulties and nitty gritty of what V/M did that no one else really has before: http://www.ice-dance.com/main/news/general-articles/1566-working-to-highlight-the-modern-dance-in-ice-dance
The whole article is fascinating, but I feel this is particularly worth quoting to drive home the point about the innovation in V/M's Carmen:
Thanks for the explanation of why you consider V/M's Carmen groundbreaking. I can't say most of this came across to me while viewing it, but this is hardly my area of expertise so I'll withhold judgment.
Anyway, I still consider Pina the best and most interesting dance program of the past few years
The minimum TES scores for dance at the Olympics are 18 (SD) and 28 (FD), the same as for Euros and 4C's.
The Yankee Polka and the Finnstep had the same base values last season (Communication 1739). If there's no change, a combination of 1FS1 and 2FS1 with N's for all key points, but at base, A/P would earn 6 points, or 1/3 of the TES minimum. While among all the other things they'd need to do to compete, they'd have to learn a new and difficult CD pattern, they surely have the skills to match the 29th team in the SD, at 2013 Worlds, Agafanova/Ucar, who earned base their 1YP1-NNN, and it's more likely they'd earn over half the necessary SD TES from the Finnstep segments alone, since base is 10 points for L2's, or hitting one of the key points in each sequence. Every couple in the Top 23 except Riazanova/Tkachenko did this, and they got one L3 and one L1 for a total base of 10 in the pattern dance portion.
There were three other required elements in 2012-13: a defined type of step sequence (L1=3.5 base), twizzles (2.5), and a lift (1.5 for most), which is another 7.5 points. (I don't know if this will change for 2013-14.) The total base in the SD without any +GOE or levels higher than 1 is 13.5, or 75% of the minimum.
For the FD in 2013-14, there were four lifts at full value (6 pts at the minimum base) plus .2 for the CH lift (6.2 total), twizzles at 2.5, two step sequences at 7 (2 x 3.5), and a dance spin at 2. At a total base of 17.7, they'd need more overall to meet the minimums, but unless they wipe out on an element or two, it's really hard to imagine A/P couldn't match what the Reeds, who finished 20th/last in the FD in London, exceeded by 9.01 points, or what Coomes/Buckland, who had a spin discounted completely, exceeded in base by 4.7 points. I can't bear A/P's skating and view the comeback as a distraction, but I give them that much credit.
I'm with you.
I don't get what the angst is over re-using material. One of the strengths of the dance world is that except for improv, almost any piece can be performed by different companies, different casts, even different genders, and half the fun is comparing them. (They get paid royalties when pieces are revived, and they can even send someone who is also paid to teach the works without showing up at all.)
Thank you for the translation.
You'd think, though, if Gailhauguet approached them before Turin and decided they weren't ready that he'd have asked them for Vancouver in time for them to be ready, or at least as soon as he knew Delobel was pregnant, which was sooner before Vancouver than Sochi is now.