Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by alij, Jun 15, 2013.
Well we all know that Linichuk and Karponosov are shoe ins for Sochi with their comeback.
I think these quotes say it all. Someone is looking for attention.
They were not to good at twizzles 11 years ago
And god awful spins
It was not all about twizzles 11 years ago (thanks God !). Also, I don't get where the idea of them being weak technicaly comes from, other couples did 2+2 series of twizzles, usualy almost at place (L/A? F-P/M, D/V...the only couple that did a little better vere B/K with fast twizzles, but they weren't moving much neither) , A/P generaly did more difficult stuff. They had some problems in 2001, but their twizzles were very difficult that season, changing positions in the middle of twizzles, covering huge amount of the ice,... We will never know how well they would do if the twizzles were their training priority.
Sorry, but this is ridiculous...can you specify, what was awful about their spins? Ok, they had 1 weak spin in Carmina, but other than that, they had always good spead, centred spins with great lines, interesting new positions. They (and D/V) were the only ones who were able to change positions during the spin. Also, I always appreciated their spins were very well incorporated in the choreography.
For example P/B (who I appreciate a lot) have not great spins imo and I think A/P could do their spins without so much difficulty. As for twizzles, those are not P/B's strong point neither. I'd say in their primes, A/P could easily compete with today's best couples, I'm sad they don't get any recognition here.
That said, I don't wish their return at all, but I would be very happy to see them in shows again.
Anissina and Schoenfelder for gold!
They may have had the technical ability to compete with today's best couples, however, their programs from those days could not have because they didn't even come close to what's required today. None of that diminishes their ability though. They skated in a different era, they would have been a different couple had they skated in today's era, obviously. I'm not sure I'd want that; I'd rather remember them for what they were because the way they were, they were great and I like that they had all those liberties that today's couples don't have when creating their programs!
Which brings me to another (general) thought - Marina and Gwendal have both, repeatedly, expressed that they're no fan of the new judging system and that they regret the lack of creativity in today's ice dance. Why would they return to a world of ice dance they don't agree with and more importantly, don't like?!
I disagree about them having good speed. I also didn't think they had very difficult positions. Maybe difficult compared to the field but definitely not anywhere near the level they'd need to get high levels and GOE's today.
I totally agree. Moreover I'd add they were the only one to do their twizzles on both feet (of the top teams). B/K did not - in my memory but I'm pretty sure - except maybe in their first version of MJ medley (difficult twizzles right in front of the judges toward the end), sadly they changed them after the GP (too difficult maybe?).
As for spins, they just don't belong to ice dancing anyway. It's a nonsense to have them as mandatory elements and most of the time is painfull to watch/disruptive of the program composition (even though there's not that much anymore, just elements championships). I wonder who had this brilliant idea to include them back in 99.
Also, maybe A/P can't do what the dance team do nowadays but the reverse is also true. V/M couldn't even interpret CDs correctly... I have very hard time picturing them skating as A/P did their 1995 tango FD or R&J, MITIM, Carmina Burana. Even A/P FD from 1994 (Flamenco, still my favorite from them, it was awesome. Close call with Jeanne y Paul 95 FD though, wonderful intricacy & interpretation) would be a challenge too high given V/M's everything but spanish 2010 OD aka "show me how wonderful skaters you are with ramdom music in the background".
Don't be angry at me V/M fans, I took them as an exemple because they are better than almost all the other teams in this area and the best overall dancers of today. The germans, Z/S and I/K are the only one I can see doing a good job under the 90's ice dancing criteras redarding what you have to do with your musics.
I agree how about trying to do whole programs without having every single second taken up by required technical elements! Ice dance used to be much more creatively harder!
There is no point comparing programs from different eras.
That makes this "comeback" even more bizarre. Anissina&Peizerat were one of the most exciting teams of their era. But their era ended some time ago.
But that would be like replacing quads with triples in singles so they could do more choreography.
I have no problem with that.
Speaking of here's a recent profile in the New York Times.
Perhaps he and Marina are already "planning" Sochi?
But I am angry, because this:
is . I can't think of much better music interpretators than V/M among ice dancers today. Certainly not I/K. That's one of the things that I love about V/M the most, and one of the reasons why I am a fan.
This to me is too. Their "flamenco" was only by name. If you want a true flamenco interpretation, watch A/P 2002 OD or P/B 2008 OD. V/M's simply is not at all.
Also, what did I/K in all three phases of their 2010 WJ title easily trash anything V/M did interpretation-wise. Their CD and FD there particulary were mesmerizing. That's why I put them in my previous post. She has the kind of fire you can't learn, as good as you can be otherwise. V/M always seem faking next to her ; back to V/M 2010 OD. Sadly since then, the russians had veeery poor material (first year as senior was hard on them mentally I'd say then, thanks Morozov once more), it's a shame really because they could be incredible and already world champion material by now - if no technical mistake obviously.
I guess that is why I & K look up to both V & M!!!!
What are you smoking here?
If Torvill and Dean can come back after 10 years of competing to win Olympic bronze... there is always a chance for A&P to medal if they work hard enough and grasp the new system to their benefit. She is a tough cookie so I could see her work ethic working to their favour.
And as for Nours- Zhulin, Tarasova, Dean all stated how good V&M are. I will take their opinion over yours anyday.
That is true, but I feel like Ice Dance has changed a lot more between 2002 and 2014 than it did during 1984 and 1994 (mainly because of IJS).
That's an unfortunate comparison because T&D got royally jobbed at the Olympics (IMHO anyway). I'm not sure that anyone would want to put in that sort of effort just to get ripped off at the end of it all.
Has any singles skater or team ever come back 4+ years after retirement and matched or bettered their previous Olympic result? I recall Boitano and Witt both finishing well below their former heights when they came back in 1994.
Gordeeva & Grinkov matched by winning both times.
Ice Dance has advanced but the core factors haven't changed... interpretation, edges, line, unison, complex footwork are all still key components of which A&P excelled. Just because they haven't competed in this new judging system doesn't mean they aren't fully competent to get the intricacies of this new system down.
I think the most important thing they can do is get their butts on the ice and go through the compulsory dances and work with ice dance experts to maximize their scoring potential for the Short dance and the free. They didn't have to mathmatically go over their programs before but now they have to.
As for T&D, the subjectivity of ice dance is there. Their programs were very entertaining but I could see an argument for G&P winning and them. If G&P had done their World's performance at the Olympics in 1994 then I would believe in an outcry. But then I am one of very few that thought G&P deserved 1st in the freedance in Lillehammer.
I find it pretty much pointless to debate historic ice dance results considering what we now know (always suspected of course) about corrupt judging.
More recently, FP&M and D&V came back for the 2006 Olys after a 4 year break and the implementation of CoP, and both dropped in the standings from their 2002 results.
I specifically remember watching the free dance live in the arena, both in practice and during the competition: After Torvill/Dean skated I thought to myself "Just show me something that can beat that." And then G&P skated, and my thought was "OK, you showed me." They owned the ice that much more.
The real question for me was why didn't T&D finish second, ahead of Usova/Zhulin, since they were noticeably faster. Analyzing the programs on video after the fact, I could see technical reasons why. And then there was that lift deduction. So I could see it going either way.
I didn't mean their 'Flamenco'. But, to me, music interpretation is not just dancing/moving in the style of the given music. There is so much music used in ice dancing and figure skating in general that doesn't go together with a particular genre of dance. So, for me, interpreting the music first of all means expressing and accentuating it's nuances with movements, skating elements, expression (although expression certainly can't be the sole means of interpretation, otherwise it's not a skating program anymore), and so on. In my opinion, Virtue/Moir are very good at that. The choreography that they are given is another thing - choreography is not exactly the same as interpretation. Or, rather, it's the choreographer's interpretation of the music, not the skater's (if the skaters themselves are not also choreographers).
By the way, I've seen A/P's and P/B's flamencos, love them, and know that they are more "flamenco" than Virtue/Moir's OD. Which doesn't change my opinion about them.
F-P&M tanked at Turino because they fell and fell hard in the original dance. They were in 1st after the Compulsory. Their Freedance was a jambled mess. So sloppy and barely executed. They also had a deduction in the free if I remember correctly.
D&V were sloppy in their compulsory, fell hard in the original dance and I think they were the only team with a 3 point deduction in that portion of the competition. Their freedance was noticeably better which bumped them up in the rankings.
They finished in 4th at World's a month and a bit later which is a really good finish as there was an argument that they could have been on the podium their freednace at World's was amazing.
They tanked because they made mistakes at the Olympics.They never got called out like that under the old system. F-P&M proved that if you delivered you were rewarded aka being first at the Olympics after the compulsory dance. They had they ability to score points but errored and got penalized for it. Fair IMHO.
I'm not saying they aren't good, even said previously they are the best overall competing, by far - even though I can see why D/W were able to beat them at various competitions, rules and mistakes mainly IMO.
I'm just saying they aren't good at interpretation compares to dancers from the past, still being one of the best of their era on this particular point. You can watch any of their CDs to convice yourself ; somebody said it's pointless to compare programs from different eras, I agree except for CDs for obvious reasons.
It only shows how bad almost all the others are, I repeat I took them as an EXEMPLE, nothing personal against them here. Should have done it with Brobova Soloviev or the Shibutanis, people wouldn't have even noticed it. The reason is the rules anyway don't give credit to interpretation anymore, which is sad/mad as shows the empty crowds. Margaglio himself pointed it in a recent interview, if you don't like what I'm saying at least give credit to him. I know it's hard to their fans to critize V/M as all they do is virtually becoming golden here. Perhaps they poo gold too, somebody should ask them (yeah, trash me baby). Also saying their flamenco has no flamenco flavour. That's not the same as to say they aren't good.
I will say if I/K's interpretation is stronger than V/M's in the 2009/2010 season programs, then I need to watch another sport because I consider I/K's FD that season to be the single worst thing I've ever seen in figure skating.
I shared my 2 cents on this in my blog yesterday: