Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Ageless, May 2, 2013.
She has a leg wrap on her jumps that she didn't have before the injury.
That's reasonable of course, but you may have noticed that everyone's been spinning like molasses for the last season or so. I hate that rule.
Which rule change in spins is this? I can't seem to remember what the changes were.
I watched it on my big computer last week and the spins looked slow and labored. However I just watched it on
My handheld which can stream this more smoothly and in sync and her spins all had good to v good speed. Even the music sounded
I saw Alissa last night at Scott Hamilton's benefit show in Cleveland. I'm a big fan of Alissa's, but I'm sad to report that she doesn't look like she has any chance whatsoever to take that third spot for the Olympic team. She was only able to land two single axles. The first looked like an aborted attempt at a two axle, and the second one wasn't even an attempt at a double. She also almost lost it on one of her spins. Otherwise, she was beautiful and elegant as ever.
Sectionals is in two weeks. If she can't even land a 2a, she may not even make it to Nationals.
Then again, exhibition lighting can be very distracting.
Alissa is 26 and after all those years of exhibition skating, she should be used to the lighting.
To be fair, some people never adjust to show lights.
It could be a case of taking it easy to save everything for competitions.
Who knows. We will find out at Sectionals later this month.
I find it odd that people were reporting that over the summer, she had every triple jump back up to the loop, and we are not seeing any evidence of it today. Has she perhaps re-injured herself? Also, John Coughlin was back on the ice 3 months after recovering from surgery on a torn labrum. It seems to be taking Czisny over a year to recover from the same injury
Has there been any conjecture or speculation as to what's going on?
Injury at the same place- not necessarily same injury. Perhaps Czisny's was more severe? Total speculation but: Super flexibility makes joints less stable, so that may also be affecting the healing in her hips; the non-injured ligaments/tendons are loose and don't 'hold' everything together. Coughlin likely has tighter tendons/ligaments/whatever in his hip joint which promoted stable healing.
Reading this thread makes me so sad for Alissa.
Her best chance to make an Olympic Team was probably in 2006. There was talk of a potential medal at the Torino Games, too.
After she had done so well on the Grand Prix circuit that season, placing 2nd at Skate America and winning Skate Canada, Czisny's nerves got the better of her at US Nationals.
Her journey over the last decade really underlines just how difficult the sport is. She works hard, but the jumps have always been a question mark.
Whatever the outcome later this season, Alissa will still be able to look back on her eligible career with a tremendous sense of achievement.
Above all, her style and grace have been strong selling points along with beautiful costumes and mature musical interpretation.
I think Czisny's problem was being taught terrible jump technique at an early age. She's been reworking her jumps with Dungjen and Sato but there's only so much you can do once the muscle memory is so well entrenched. You can make changes but it's a hard and slow process.
She will probably never compete at the Olympics but she'll be remembered as one of the most elegant and graceful skaters ever and she can probably earn a decent living from show skating after she retires.
Kristi Yamaguchi's backstage photo of Alissa: http://instagram.com/p/gPEwH7Evc-/
ETA link to a new thread I started for the 2013 show: "An Evening with Scott Hamilton & Friends" Ice Show & Gala in Cleveland, OH
John Coughlin has significantly more body mass and muscle mass than Czisny, and this would enable him to displace muscle load onto neighboring muscle and tendon fibers not only during the pre-diagnosed injury stage, but also during recovery.
Interesting article this weekend:
"Women's Flexibilty is a Liability". This NYTimes article focuses on yoga injury issues, but its point is on hyper-flexibility. I think it certainly carries over into figure skating and probably gymnastics as well.
I am not sure if you realise how bad the injury is and how serious the operation is. To repair labral tear (through keyhole surgery) they have to pull the hip out of the hip socket. The hip will never feel the same. I had the same surgery a week before Alissa. I was on the ice about 3-4 months after the surgery, but being on the ice does not mean that I was able to jump. I am not an elite skater, I am only adult skater and before the surgery had all my singles minus the axel. Since the surgery I have not been able to jump at all; I had to switch to a solo dance. My hip feels a bit like if you wear big shoes - everything feels fine and then suddenly when you least expect it something inside there moves (like if the hip socket is too big for the hip). The hip is a bit unstable and I was warned that from then on I will be prone to hip dislocation. Luckily I have not dislocated it yet, and neither did John Coughlin. However, if you remember, Alissa was not so lucky and on her first competition she dislocated the hip and had to have another surgery to put the hip back into its socket, so that would obviously seriously delay her comeback. Also, John Coughlin is a pair skater so all he needs is two triples. In comparison, Alissa needs full set of triples, therefore she must be practising them much more and her return would be much slower than his. If you imagine that landing a jump means an impact on your hips and knees of 4-6 times your body weight, although Alissa is a very slim lady, during every training she needs to do quite a few jumps and that is definitely not helping her hip.
It depends what you mean by "had every triple jump back." An icenetwork article published end of August reported on Czisny's training. In it, Dungjen said Czisny's double Axel and triple toe were "going well," and she was landing flips and Lutzes "pretty much everyday," but they still had to get her back in shape to do programs.
Thank you for all this insight hanca. Hopefully you are going to get your jumps back eventually.
Thank you very much. One has to be realistic. I probably won't be able to jump ever again. I have to admit that it did make me quite upset at first, but at least I can still skate and there is still plenty of things I can do and I can still improve a lot (compulsory dances, free dance, field moves). There is no point of feeling sorry for myself; it would be much worse if I couldn't skate at all. THAT would be REALLY upsetting! I know, this sound so sensible - it took me a while before I accepted this. Trust me, I tried to jump several times, but the price was not being able to walk (and skate) properly for a week afterwards - it was not worth it! Saying that, both Coughlin and Czisny are elite skaters, so their conditioning would have been much better and therefore their outcome may also be much better than mine. I am also not as slim as Alissa so the impact on my joints would be much bigger than on her joints, and for sure I don't have as much muscle mass as Coughlin, so they do have better chances.
And if you ever make it to the ISU Adult event, you can skate in an artistic category.
I realize Alissa's an athlete, but a part of me worries about her injuring herself again trying to get those jumps back...
Thanks for the insight. It was very helpful
Everyone keeps remembering Alyssa as she WAS not as she IS now. She is past her prime as anyone who has PHYSICALLY SEEN her in the last few months can attest to. I don't understand her mentality of pushing her body to do something it can no longer do. It's one thing to be persistent, and another to have poor judgement. She could be causing permanent damage and still not achieve the goal she's after. And you see SO many past champions doing this. Evan, Weir and Alyssa, Kwan did it too---getting herself to the Olympics then scratching and making Hughes scramble to the rescue for the US. These athletes need to realize when their time has come and go out on top, when everyone will remember them as stars rather than pathetic worn out wannabees.
This harshness stems, perhaps, from the idea that everything skaters do, they do for achievement and praise, and also that one can always predict what future holds. Neither is true. There are plenty of personal reasons one can have for continuing to skate and compete. Snark is different from unjustified feeling of superiority. As Neil Gaiman famously replied to fans who complained that "Game of Thrones" author does not write fast enough: "JRR Martin is not your b***h". Neither are athletes. Even if Alissa does not make it to Nationals, she'll never be a pathetic wannabe.
I feel sorry for Alissa. She seems so desperate to make the Olympic team and is probably hoping for a miracle skate. When you've invested your entire life into a dream, it's hard to see reason or to just plain give up. I wonder if Yuka or Jason have had a frank talk with her about what she can realistically expect to get out of the season, results wise.
I disagree that Hughes "came to the rescue" at the Olympics. No offense but the US didn't need to be rescued. They were represented just fine by Cohen and Meissner, both who finished higher than Emily. Besides it's not like the US needed any points at the Olympics anyway.
I understand that it is Alissa's athletic spirit that compels her to try to do what her body is no longer capable of doing.
It's not that Alissa is a pathetic wannabe, but it IS sad to see her struggle so tentatively to do what she once did so gracefully. And there's always the fear that she will hurt herself again. No one wants to see that.
She thinks it is worth it for her, so she goes for it. What may be worth a lot for one person may mean nothing for someone else. With your attitude all adults skaters would never skate because our body is also past our prime and let's face it, skating is putting us in danger or injuring ourselves or making some temporary/permanent damage. But for us, it is worth it. Besides, even just by living 'safely' (such as going to work and after work sitting in front of the TV) may cause you damage. How do you know that a car won't knock you down on your way to work? Or that watching too much TV won't damage your eyes? Living in this society carries some risk, no matter what you do. so you may as well find something you enjoy doing, even if it slightly increases the potential risks.
I think Alissa just wants to go out on a high note, to redeem herself from that disastrous world experience, a solid placing of 5th or 6th at nationals given her injuries would be a very respectable showing to end her career on, also since 4CC is often not given to Olympic spots, a solid 5th place showing could potentially let her retire with an international medal.
Although given her injuries it is unlikely we will see that happen. If she cannot skate at least in the top group, I don't think she will go tie nationals.q
Great explanation, Thanks! Alyssa is certainly pushing it this year, and it remains to be seen what she will be able to accomplish, but it is hard for me to understand how anyone could say she is pathetic at this stage. She is a brave young woman, who is giving her dream another shot - it is her choice to make. As long as she is scored fairly, so as not to take spots from others who are better prepared, she harms no one. (Whether or not that happens is a different issue and not really in her control.) Go Alyssa!
Let's hope so. She's really nice to watch, and I would love to have her in the field at international competitions.
I think Ziggy is right in Czisny's case: it was bad technique that didn't allow her to land the jumps, and the situation probably made her nervous as well.
Generally speaking, most of the times bad technique (whether it was taught or the natural inclination of the student wasn't corrected) is to blame, rather than nerves - imo. Recently though, the one that seems to be really affected by nerves than anything else would be Sotnikova.
littlefeetsk8. you certainly managed to 'dig"/defame several skaters with your post.
Those who can skate..
Those who can't judge and are the true "pathetic worn our wannabees"
I think this is far from the same situation we see with other skaters. Of course she's tentative... it's not been that long since the injury (But I do admit amazement at your ability to Diagnosis by "seeing" LOL!) Most athletes are tentative after an injury.. Heck there's an NBA player who took a year off after his injury even though everyone 'seeing' him said he was ready.
If three years from now she's still out there trying to make Nationals then I might feel different, but judging what is possible this early is kind of premature IMHO. I think she should see what she can do and make the decision based on what her body and advisors tell her not on what folks with no real knowledge of her situation post on message boards!
((And I am sure there are a large number of skaters you left out of your whine... maybe because they have come back. If the Chinese had heard you they would be missing a gold medal)
The weaker your technique is, the smaller the margin of error that you have. Also, when under a lot of stress bad (but comfortable) habits might return.
If that were the case she would have retired after 2011 when she redeemed her horrible 2010 season. She had the perfect chance to go out on a high note with her 5th place finish at 2011 worlds but stayed in the game. That she remained leads me to believe she is desperate to make an Olympic team, enjoys competing or just doesn't know what else to do with her life. I doubt it's about going out on a high note. Skaters rarely take that road, unlike athletes in other sports.
I do think it's funny how Phil Hersh, who loves telling skaters when to hang it up, has remained mum on his pet.
Oh, we've noticed. Every time he starts doing in-depth analysis of the Jets games on his not-a-blog thinggie .
I think you're projecting your own view of the situation onto 'everyone.' Maybe Alissa wants to leave the sport without any regrets and one way of ensuring that is to give this season her best shot. That could well mean falling short of the Olympic team, or even of making it to Nationals. In the end, that's her choice to make, as is the way fans choose to remember her. If you cannot look past a few subpar outings, you can focus on that. Alissa had plenty of good qualities to her skating and remembering those isn't a problem for me.
Also, if you're going to speak for everyone, maybe you should spell AlIssa's name correctly
Sadly, this could be the reason she's still competing. She's been home-schooled all her life and has spent her time in rinks since she was a child.
I don't think this is the case. She has a degree in international studies and speaks several languages. Clearly she has thought about life outside skating. I think she wants to be able to look back and say she at least tried one more time to make the Olympic team.
It isn't for us to judge the reasons why any skater competes.
Don't the "armchair psychologists" here have anything better to do?
Separate names with a comma.