Alissa Czisny--Any Updates?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Ageless, May 2, 2013.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    31,095
    Amber Czisny was an exceptional spinner as well - she rotated her jumps counterclockwise but could also spin clockwise. :)
     
  2. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,692
    Agreed, for her and other great spinners like Lambiel, the GOE just isn't enough.

    But Alissa could up the base value of her spins and that would help.
     
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    31,095
    New interview: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130701&content_id=52358894&vkey=ice_news
    Excerpt:
     
  4. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,413
    She usually gets L4 on all her spins regardless (with the occasional L3), and a few times she's scored perfect +3 across the board, so not sure how she could get more points there, unless there are particular types of spins with higher base value (say, L4 flying camel has a higher BV than a L4 flying sit, or whatever).
     
  5. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    7,031
  6. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,692
    The L4 layback is only worth 2.7, so if she replaced it with a 2nd combo spin, with a flying entrance, she could gain 0.8 points.
     
  7. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,889
    Doesn't Alissa have to establish the minimum TES at an international comp to be eligible for Olys/Worlds?
     
  8. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,497
    The well balanced program rule does not allow two combination spins. For a well balance program, a senior ladies FS has:

    "maximum of 3 spins, one of which must be a spin combination, one a flying spin or a spin with a flying entrance and one a spin with only one position"

    The other relevant language reads:

    "All Spins must be of a different character. Any Spin with the same character (abbreviation) as the one executed before will be deleted (but will occupy a spinning box).
    The spins must have a required minimum number of revolutions: six (6) for the flying spin and the spin with only one position and ten (10) for the spin combination, the lack of which must be reflected by Judges in their marking. These minimum number of required revolutions must be counted from the entry of the spin until its exit (except final wind-up in Spins in one position and Flying spins). In the spin combination and spin in one position the change of foot is optional. The number of different positions in the spin combination is free."


    The rules do permit a flying entrance to the combination spin, but it just helps get a level, it doesn't change the base value of the spin. So, if a skater is already getting level 4 through other features, adding a flying entrance does not add any points.

    So the most points a lady can get for the three spins (using the highest scoring options) would be 13.9 points with all L4 and +3GOE, as follows:

    Spin in one position (Layback is worth most): Level 4 = 2.7+1.5
    (after that are camel=2.6, sit=2.5, upright=2.4)

    Flying Spin (layback or camel): Level 4 = 3.2+1.5
    (after those are sit=3.0 and layback=2.9)

    Spin Combination (both change of position and change of foot): Level 4 = 3.5+1.5
    (others range down to 2.9 base value for L4)

    A less great spinner with slightly easier spins, Level 3s and +1 GOEs can earn 9 points (more with some +2 GOES or if they use a camel or layback somewhere).

    So, there really is not a lot of reward for great spinning, but really, there wasn't under 6.0 either.
     
  9. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,682
    That's the least of her concerns. The TES minimums are well below what she would need to get on the Olympic Team. If the USFSA needs to rush her off to a Senior "B" somewhere in January or February, it will do so.
     
  10. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,497
    The article does quote her as saying " I would like to be ready to compete when the season commences this fall, in hopes of participating in other international competitions." So I think she knows she needs to post a qualifying score somewhere, sometime next season.
     
  11. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,692
    Susan - look at the ladies' protocols from worlds. Kim, Asada and Kostner all show 2 change foot combination spins, 1 with flying entrance and 1 without.

    There is no limitation on what the flying spin can be. The only requirement is that 1 of the 3 spins has a flying entrance.
     
  12. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,889
    As much as Alissa wants to make it to Sochi, I can't help wondering if her delicate hip is up to the challenge. She can't push too hard to return without stressing that hip, but she is up against a rigid time schedule.

    I believe that Alissa would have to compete at Regionals and Sectionals in order to vie for an Olympic berth at Nationals. USFS could send Alissa to Skate America (avoiding Regionals) and a November International B (avoiding Sectionals). But it's not clear that Alissa will be ready for competition by mid-October, and two competitions within two months might be too much for her.
     
  13. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    31,095
    Competing at Regionals (Eastern Great Lakes, Oct. 5-8 in Louisville, KY) might be a good way for Alissa to ease back into competition, IMO.

    She could be assigned to Ice Challenge in Graz, Austria, Nov. 19-24, which would give her both a chance to earn the Olympic minimum TES and a bye through Midwestern Sectionals (the same week in East Lansing, Michigan).
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  14. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,009
    Go Alissa! I would like to see you on Sochi ice!
     
  15. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,497
    Sorry, you are right.. I think when I read the rulebook descriptions my mind automatically went to the 3 spin elements in the men's Sp -flying spin in one position, change foot spin & combination spin.
     
  16. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,302
    Either way, Alissa is going to be forced to compete twice in those 2 months, even though Regionals + Sectionals requires less travel and may be slightly less taxing. But if she's going to do well at Nationals, she probably really needs that competitive experience in the fall.

    Excuse me for venting about this once again (since this seems to affect at least one of our international skaters every year), but the qualifying system for Nationals is a joke. Sectionals should more important than Regionals, yet as long as you have a conflict, you can just skip Sectionals even if you had been forced to show up at Regionals. It's just a joke. As a National champ/World team member/multiple Grand Prix medalist in this quadrennium, Alissa has done more than enough to prove herself as a worthy international competitor and should have the freedom to arrange her fall competition schedule in a way that best suits her, her health, and her "comeback plan". The mandatory qualifying system should be for the less established skaters who are not expected to have any chance to represent the US internationally this year.

    It just irks me that it's of utmost importance that Alissa goes through the qualifying system (if she doesn't do 2 internationals), yet many a pair team (even lowly ones) have avoided the qualifying system all together due to a lack of entries. Why can't USFS just admit that the qualifying system ends up being silly in several instances? And in times of injury, I sometimes find it almost cruel. The whole system could use an overhaul for the benefit of the skaters. Okay, back on topic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  17. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,900
    So by the same token Johnny Weir and Miki should get a bye from their federation? And how does one define "less established skaters who are not expected to have any chance", unles they get a chance to shine in the first place?

    Good luck to Czisny, but there's no getting out of competing internationally or nationally during an Olympic year if she wants a spot
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
  18. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    574
    Well said stjeaskategym. Alissa was the Grand Prix Final CHAMPION in this past 'quad' - that should count for something at least on par with having half of a pair team that may have earned enough ISU points. Seems almost cruel, and also cuts into a place in the qualifying system for a skater whose journey to this point is actually perhaps making it out of regionals and/or sections for the first time. I remember when something similar happened perhaps 2 or 3 seasons ago, and a senior lady at regionals who placed 5th missed out on a chance to have her season progress. Double cruel + heartbreak.
     
  19. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,682
    What do you mean, exactly?

    As far as I know, the only skaters who really get to arrange their fall competition schedule to any significant degree are the previous season's World medalists who get some say in which Grand Prix competitions they will compete in. Other than that, skaters have to be invited or assigned to international competitions, and if they aren't, their only option is to participate in domestic events, which, in the U.S. in the fall, means Regionals and Sectionals. Czisny, for example, cannot make the USFSA send her to Skate America or a Senior "B" even if she wants them to do so (and I'm not so sure she does).
     
  20. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,889
    Alissa would have to do an International B at some point to establish the minimum TES if she wants to qualify for Sochi. Presumably USFS would send her to a B if Alissa made it through Regionals and Sectionals.
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  21. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,398
    A bye through to nationals, why not? By pulling the previously well known skaters out of the regionals/sectionals (assuming they're up to competing at nationals) then more skaters are going to get through and qualify for nationals. Though I'm guessing that as stjeaskategym specifically mentioned the last quadrennial a skater like Johnny might not be included since I think finlandia is the only competition he's done since the last Olympics, so he wouldn't qualify for the bye proposed.
     
  22. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    ^This.....

    I don't have an issue with USFS sending Alissa to a Sr B to establish a minimum TES score if her intent is to qualify for Sochi. But, to give her a direct bye to the US Championships, with no participation in a qualifying event (US Regionals or Sectionals), as others have posted, would involve scheduling international events for her to directly conflict with her regional and sectional schedules. That is certainly possible, but that also involves sending her out of the country, traveling, and I would also assume monitoring prior to those events to demonstrate readiness. That would be true for Johnny Weir as others have posted. Other skaters in this quadrennial that would qualify for this type of "bye" directly to US Nationals? Evan is scheduled for the SLC Sr B, IIRC, and also for SA SGP. As OGM, he has a bye to US Nationals. Other skaters who competed in this quadrennial that have had injury issues, changes of partners (and does that really qualify them for a bye?). If Emily Samuelson had a partner, would love to see her back at Nationals. :) Same for Caitlin Yankowskis. Rachael Flatt would also be a possibility for this group of athletes. Looking at other 2010 Oly athletes that are missing.....Jeremy Barrett (coaching/shows), Amanda Evora (coaching, college), Mark Ladwig (wearing many hats these days!), even Tanith and Ben (retired). But this idea opens up a lot of possibilities for skaters who have contributed during a quadrennial, to have the option to come back for US Nationals, one OLY cycle removed from their last Olympics. Intriguing thought.
     
  23. GoldenMichelle

    GoldenMichelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    727
    The Skating Lesson's most recent (6/30) episode of This and That says that Alissa is doing triples up through the loop and that her progress is right on track.
     
  24. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,900
    I think there was already a lengthy discussion re: adding skaters to nationals and how that will cost US nationals organizers in terms of more ice time, facility use; in addition to a more lengthy discussion regarding fairness, what's really best for skaters regarding byes, etc. Every policy will be unfair to someone, sadly
     
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    31,095
    Re-posting from another thread - Czisny competed at a club competition in St. Clair Shores, Michigan this weekend:
    Thanks for alerting me that the results are up (this comp. usually has not published their results so quickly).
     
  26. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,553
    Alissa was the only senior lady competing
     
  27. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2007
    Messages:
    782
    Good to see her back competing-
     
  28. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    31,095
    Relevant post-Champs Camp article excerpt from late August (link was originally posted in the U.S. Ladies news thread):
     
  29. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,497
    This sort of whiny nit-picking is, IMO, just lame. (And I really don't get the relevance of the Miki Ando reference here.) Of course the rulemakers would need to decide where to draw the line. That doesn't make it a bad or unworkable idea. If the USFS wanted to change the criteria for Nationals qualifying, they would simply have to make some decisions. If it was me, I would draw it at 2 or maybe 3 years since a top 4 finish at Nationals for starters. (I said top 4 instead of 3 to acknowledge the pewter medal.)

    This sentence makes no sense in the context of exempting past champion skaters from regionals-sectionals qualifying, since that change would not impact skaters who don't meet that criteria. Those "less established" skaters would get their chance to shine at regionals and sectionals, just like they do now. Besides, it isn't necessary to define "less established skaters" anyway. They just need to expand the criteria for qualifying outside of the regionals-sectionals process in specific terms like placements at specified events.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  30. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,900
    To me qualifyin through past reputation goes against the idea of qualifying the best skaters based on how they are skating now

    I think Czisny is skating well, going by reports. She will get to nationals without the need of any rule change.