Aliona Savchenko/Robin Szolkowy's 2013-14 programs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    If there is a touchdown of the free foot (but not a landing on two feet, which leaves it open to interpretation) then there should be a reduction of -1 in the GOE but the overall GOE can still be positive.

    The thing I take issue with with V&T is that the throw salchow is always outrigged, in other words, it takes off on two feet - her free foot is always on the ice and often throws snow up showing she takes off on two feet. It's not just her, a lot of the female pairs skaters do this on the salchow, and it's one of my personal bug bears (I used to hate it when Tim Goebel outrigged his quad salchows too) and the IJS clearly states that a take off on two feet is a -2GOE and mandatory negative GOE. I don't think the judges ever seem to do this though.
     
  2. Lis

    Lis Active Member

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    One can wonder why pairs that has outrigged takes off gets + Goe then !
     
  3. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is not possible to do Salchow from two feet. Not even throw Salchow. The free leg is often so low that it looks like if it was on the ice, but to be able to move the free leg around you (from the free leg being behind you through to free leg being sideways then diagonally in front of you and then jumping up while lifting the leg as if stepping on an invisible step) the blade would catch the ice. Also, the momentum is gained from the leg circling in the air around your body. With the leg being on the ice you wouldn't have the momentum.
     
  4. lao1234

    lao1234 Member

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    Yes - I think that this has been discussed - possible many moons ago, IRT Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, and that someone more knowledgeable than myself indicated that it's not possible to take off with 2-feet on the ice, but that it can "look" like both feet are on the ice at take-off.
     
  5. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    Ok, Guys, Is anyone else starting to feel really bad for Aliona, A four time world champion,
    Who is on the verge of breaking her body because she feels (rightfully) that otherwise she'll be cheated out of her last shot at Olympic Gold,
    Because the Russians need their Olympic champions, In a form of a very good, recently very consistent pair,
    Who attempt no major jumps in their programs and recieve Compenent scores in the 9.8s and 9.9s,
    Which is almost a full mark higher then any other pair ever, For just ok programs ?
     
  6. shah

    shah Shhh...

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    I do feel bad for them, therefore I'd love them to think their plans over and ditch the axel in the short. A clean throw 3flip with +3GOE may make up for the (usually) unsuccessful throw axel. Plus I can't watch these painful falls and Aljona in tears :(. For sure it won't be enough to bridge the gap between them and V/T, but clean S/S might be much closer to V/T (and further from these pairs who would love to overtake them - the Canadian pairs, other pairs form Russia etc.)....

    I can understand the risk in the free, but not in the short. Dear Aljona and Robin, please reconsider!
     
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  7. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I do not think V/T are doing 'just okay' programs. Yes- they are not doing the hardest elements possible, but they are doing their elements close to perfection. The last Olympics men's showed us that sometimes the harder elements aren't as good as a well-rounded, well skated, technically easier program.

    I do feel bad for Aliona, and I hope she does not seriously hurt herself, but no one is entitled to an Olympic medal just for hard work or longevity. Every cycle someone unexpected comes up and nips at the heels, and sometimes surpasses, the person who was supposed to be next in line. Sport is brutal. She is a highly decorated figure skater, four time world champion, she is an Olympic medalist. No one can take that from her- but just because it appeared they'd be next in line for Olympic Gold doesn't mean it is automatically given to them. She's not being cheated out of anything. The Germans could have taken the "easier but fabulous" path instead of the "as difficult as it can be" path; they chose not to.
     
  8. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    IMHO, it s clear that the judges have decided that V/T do all their moves at +2 or +3 when they complete them, and they give the near full PCS mark for every single performance. The GOE marks and PCS marks are so much higher than everyone else including S/S.

    I do not understand this gap in the marks, so great that V/T could remove three major elements from their FS performance an still be competitive with the best in the world. These are G/G or B/S level marks indicative of one of the greatest pair teams EVER. Like 6.0s in the old day.

    This team of V/T is not one of the greatest ever, but they are being marked as if they are. Personally, I love the SP of Aliona this year, and hope they can score well enough to be competitive at Euros and Olympics.
     
  9. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    Yes, My point though was more in the line of:
    she should be entitled to an Olympic gold because she's probably the absolute best, Or at least equal to the pair that is beating her senseless,
    You can't deny that in any other setting, V\T probably wouldn't get these marks, And would have to step out of their comfort zone
    with their Olympic programs and element layout, Like everybody else,
    I mean ... Do your remember last year's GPF ?!!
     
  10. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    So should Michelle Kwan. Maybe they should form a support group.
     
  11. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    That's cute, But again, Not the point .

    If both S\S and V\T would skate clean right now, V\T would unrightfuly win by about 13-15 points,

    And if i must - Kwan fell, Hughes did 2 triple triples, Their scores were still pretty close
     
  12. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    My point for Kwan - is she is one of the absolute best. Ever. But she has no OGM.
    Savchenko is one of the best too, and OGM isn't looking good. You used the term cheated out of it, and I don't think they are being cheated, for whatever reason, in the judges mind, they have been surpassed.

    But the timing isn't right. I don't think the clean 3A will get S/S the gold, the judges/system prefer V/T. I don't know enough about the scoring to know why.
     
  13. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    IMO there is no comparison to kwan

    If S\S don't compete well at the Olys then they should'nt win, Like Kwan.
    If they do then they should not lose by a giant margin, Which is what will happen
     
  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    They found themselves competing against a top pair which, unlike them, has the backing of very strong federation that is working all out for results at a home Olympics. Aliona and Robin, when they are on forum, can compete on the ice - but they cannot compete off of it. So yes, I'd say they have been cheated - not of a rightful medal, but of the opportunity to compete for one fairly.
     
  15. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I think that's a little far fetched. Just because S&S are attempting a throw 3A in both programmes (and have yet to land a clean one that receives full base mark or more after GOE reduction/increase). I didn't see anyone claiming Kavaguti & Smirnov where being oh so technical when they were including flawed 4Ss in their programmes.

    V&T are showing two different solo triples in their LP where S&S are including 3Ts and 2As (and struggling with those).

    As to the rest I love both of these couples but to me, V&T are clearly skating precise clean programmes with excellent quality elements. They are skating with amazing speed and skating skills, if somewhat emptier and choreographically lacking programmes. S&S so far don't appear to be skating as fast, and while their SP is interesting for me, I think their LP is their own attempt to play it safe choreogrgaphically speaking, and I don't think it pays off. The focus on the 3A throw (and the long telegraphed entry in both programmes) really has taken away from the rest of the programmes, where V&T have gone for safe (almost a little boring) programmes, but they have really honed their elements, and made sure they are ticking every bullet of the GOE criteria to ensure they end up with really high GOE.

    At this point S&S need to skate clean, and they won't do if they keep including the throw 3A.

    Perhaps the fix was in for this season anyway, but so far the Germans are giving it away without the need for the fix.
     
  16. Kunstrijdster

    Kunstrijdster New Member

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    S/S are giving it away because they are aware of the fix and need to overcome it someway, however desperate, there's just no level playing ground, that much has been made clear.

    V/T do have way better SBS jumps, that alone would be difficult enough to tackle as S/S have shaky double Axels and no triple Salchows. Be it as it may, if you have no way of touching your opponent in PCS and GOE, there's only the base value as a go-to option. I don't like the triple Axel setups and success rate either, but the only other option is to hope for multiple big mistakes in both segments by V/T. Now, even if they land the throw successfully, it won't get them enough points to win but if they are 100% clean it will at least create some controversy.
     
  17. elif

    elif Active Member

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    They are losing some points with 3A. Because with long preparation they will not going to get high GOE and that setup for the jump killing the flow of the program. I'm afraid they are losing some PCS because of this.
     
  18. bek

    bek Guest

    Two years ago, before S/S went off on this triple axel craze, S/S were most certainly competiting with V/T on GOE and PCS and in fact were beating them. You can argue they weren't getting PCS enough but the point is they were competiting on the ice.

    What has changed here is not some sudden love by the judges for V/T. What has changed is S/S's skating. In the last two years.
    1. Their programs haven't been as good
    2. They haven't been skating anywhere near clean with or without the triple axel.

    V/T deserve huge GOES for those elements. They are gorgeous and huge. And I think the choreograph especially for the short program is getting better. They do have more power and speed than anyone else.

    Do I think that V/T have more fed support, absolutely. However so did the Chinese four years ago. You still have to skate clean though and V/T are also going to have ridiculous amounts of pressure on them in Sochi too. To win back that gold medal for Russia.

    If S/S had skated clean in Vancover they'd have won. Since the Chinese didn't exactly skate their best in Vancover.

    Its cool that S/S are going for that triple axel, but the fact is that they have in many ways stopped doing what got them to the top in the first place. Their programs aren't as good and they have not been skating nearly as well either.

    I don't think S/S in general is the same team they were two years ago. Its not just the triple axel they have been having issues with. They are a team that's though always had issues going clean and a lot of their world titles was in someways also due to lack of a competition....

    Based on how everyone's skating now, I don't think the results would be all that different vs S/S and V/T if both had strong feds.

    I mean case in point it wasn't the throw triple axel that cost S/S the gold at Worlds last year, some would argue that go them silver.

    Its great that S/S want to add that in there and I understand why they feel they need it. But it seems like they have allowed this throw to affect the quality of everything else.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2013
  19. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    IMHO, The Nutcracker is a very good vehicle for them, an the Russian audience certainly responded well to it from the start for the program. I would suggest they work a little bit on relating to each other more in the middle and end of the program for performance improvements. Of course, they need to complete all their elements.
     
  20. MissJD

    MissJD Active Member

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  21. bek

    bek Guest

    Plus 2 GOE is an excellent GOE for a twist. I don't think their twist is as good as V/T's or even the best twist at the Cup of Russia.
     
  22. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Your interpretation is that Aliona is 'self-harming' (breaking her body on impossibly difficult element) in order to have a chance to win gold medal, which would otherwise be 'cheated' from her. My interpretation is that Aliona and Robin decided to push the boundaries of the sport. I am sure they are aware that the triple axel may be a big gain, but also a huge loss if she doesn't land it. They are prepared to take the risk. However, they do have a choice. Alternatively they could make sure that they are CONSISTENT and that the quality of their other elements is very high. That's the route chosen by Volosozhar-Trankov. Volosozhar-Trankov skated both GP events clean and their elements are of a very high quality. Aliona and Robin made a number of mistakes in both their events. Clean throw triple salchow at the end of their program would bring more points than messed up triple axel. However, if they want to beat V-T, they do need to be consistent on all their elements. Take notice of their today's FS - doubling both toe loops and singling the axel is not going to be enough. They are not choosing to do the difficult element (3A) because otherwise they would be cheated out of their rightful gold medal. They are doing it because they can see that they are not consistent with the side by side jump elements and need to earn the extra points somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
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  23. Pasdedeux

    Pasdedeux Member

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    It might be that they took out the throw axel because Aljona was so hurt the day before and they didn't want to risk injury. I agree they have consistency issues, but for me they are by far the most interesting pair to watch. Very elegant and beautiful. I am also really happy they stayed for this quad because of the great programs they have skated (well, except for maybe Bolero). The Nutcracker is lovely, I hope they skate it clean.
     
  24. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    I said this in the Kiss & Cry forums, but I wish they'd forget the 3A and focus on consistent speed and power throughout the program. In both programs there are sections with power, speed and flow, but also sections that are glacial. V/T only have one section like that - the last lift before the final pose.

    I really love V/T, but when I watch S/S I waver. It's been like that ever since I became a V/T uber. I tune in to the main competition, S/S and see how good they are. Charisma and charm too.

    When I look at element quality, the teams are completely on par, element to element. So clean. Completely in control. Wonderful quality of edge. S/S don't need the 3A. If they skate as they skated here - good speed and power in part of the program, slowing way down in other parts, it won't matter if she manages to stick the landing on the 3A at the Olympics, if V/T are mostly clean, they'll win due to the nonstop speed and power coupled with element quality that matches S/S. S/S both look ferociously fit. Even back in 2010 the fact that one of their lifts didn't cover much ice and some parts of the program were slow was mentioned. They spin fast. Their death spiral moves at a good clip. It's coming out of elements and in preparation that they slow down versus V/T, even when the elements themselves are delivered with good speed. Yet due to both being strong technicians, both having excellent skating skills, it would seem they could up the ante in that area without having to remake themselves.
     
  25. Kunstrijdster

    Kunstrijdster New Member

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    At this point in time they can't be cheated out of any olympic gold medal because none of the segments have been skated yet. Their programmes last season didn't help their cause either, which could have been to distinguish themselves in that regard, that much is clear. This year's programmes are no uberprogrammes but pretty decent. The throw axel, if well executed, is also as much a symbolic thing as a point getter.

    V/T are clearly ahead in the twist and SBS jumps. S/S also have never been the most consistent pair to begin with. And consistent performances raise your PCS over time. However, they should have the chance to be evaluated fairly in relation to V/T in those PCS areas and certain elements+GOE where they can compete with V/T and are not clearly behind. IMHO, it doesn't look like that will be the case. Even though it's all rather academic and they will probably lose either way and likely deservedly so given the lots of problems they have at the moment.

    We will see what happens at the GPF in that regard.
     
  26. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I feel like one of the big issues with their program this year is that it's to a ballet, and they're trying to take a classical approach to it. For the most part it's fine, but their lifts do not fit the music at all. Their timing with the music is usually slightly off, but what really bothers me are her positions. They would go great with more modern approaches, but not with the nutcracker.
     
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I felt the same way about Berezhnaia/Sikharulidze's lift with the circusy flip up and over entrance. It worked perfectly for Chaplin, but was out of place in Meditation. However, teams go with what they've done before or variations of them that have been big winners in the past.
     
  28. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    ^this. That was the one move that felt really out of place in an otherwise gorgeous LP.

    I don't think S&S are as interesting to watch when they skate like every one else, which is what they are doing this year and last year. Maybe Ingo ran out of ideas, but it did not look like Wilson came up with anything fresh for them either. I really wanted to like S&S programs this year, but I have not been able to.
     
  29. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    The trouble is, they are NOT completely on par, element to element. Let's try to look at it element by element:
    V/T usually lands their sbs jumps, S/S sometimes double
    V/T have huge throw jumps, but S/S too - here they are both on par.
    twist - V/T have a huge one, S/S can have sometimes decent one but sometimes he struggles to catch her and she lands on his shoulder.
    Both pairs have very good lifts - here I would say they are both on par
    Both have decent spins (both sbs spin and pair spin)

    As you said, S/S has a few spots in their program where they are not quite moving. A bit like dancing on ice - hit nice position, look pretty an don't do too much. No action. V/T doesn't have them, or at least it doesn't show so much if they do.

    V/T have consistency, S/S have really completely clean program.
     
  30. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I feel the same. I would love them to skate to a program with those extra new little things. In the past Pavlova gave Iliushetchkina-Maisuradze some little tiny bits of transitions that no one else did, Duhamel-Radford have a few interesting touches, Takahashi-Tran had a few in their last season together. All those little new things (interesting transitions or a new way to do an element) add something fresh into the program. these are really little things but the overall effect makes all the difference. In the past S/S had those too, but they definitely don't have it now. They are elegant, but they do elements and you know what is coming. I feel S/S lost a bit of their charm and it is not their fault; it is like if Steuer run out of creativity.