Aliona Savchenko/Robin Szolkowy's 2013-14 programs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    I believe the throw has become quite consistent by now in training. Skaters take falls at other throws as well. Eventually, if the success rate is not high enough in training, Savchenko/Szolkowy and their coach are for sure smart enough not to include it and will go for the flip and the Salchow (in the free) instead. They started working on this element not yesterday and they always knew that it will be very hard to beat Volosozhar/Trankov in Sotchi, therefore they started training it plus they want to push the envelope.
     
  2. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Re-posting to this relevant thread:
    Cup of China photos - SP, FS, exhibition: http://www3.daylife.com/search/photos/1/grid?q=Savchenko Szolkowy Lexus Cup of China 2013 Beijing

    Cup of China videos:
    SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNAaIp8mOGU
    FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9jJGWXxJ1A
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  3. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I am really glad that someone is pushing the sport further by doing things that no one else is able/dares to do. Mao Asada with her Axel, Savchenko-Szolkowy with their throw axel, two Chinese pairs with their quad twist... I think if some element is as rare as that, it should be having bigger value. After all, it is a huge risk they are taking, so in my opinion the reward for the successful element should be bigger.
     
  4. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a tricky situation. On the one hand, you have a point but on the other hand, if it had a bigger value wouldn't then there be more couples trying it which, in return, could easily mean more injuries?
    After all, if the success is bigger for succeeding, it's also bigger for failing since the base value would have to be higher to begin with. Unless you give a skater a bonus like it's given for jumps done later in the program, however, how would they decide which elements would get that bonus and where would they draw the line?
     
  5. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. The positive GOE could be much bigger, so it would reward successful element, but not failed element.

    In regards to how to decide which elements should be rewarded more, that's pretty easy. All quads, including quads twist and quad throw. Triple Axel in ladies and pairs, including triple throw axel. Also triple-triple combination (side by side jumps) in pairs.
     
  6. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Right now, the throw 3A and quads, along with the quad twist, are hugely undervalued. Right now, a throw triple flip or lutz is worth 5.5 (in singles, a triple flip is worth 5.3 and triple lutz is worth 6.0). A throw triple axel is worth 7.5 points (whereas the jump itself is worth 8.5 points). I'm not sure why the flip/lutz are so much closer to the single analogues but the axel is so far behind.
     
  7. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Because the scoring system is still a work-in-progress.
     
  8. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    CoP is reactionary. Once someone is consistently landing it and they realize it's not worth enough, they'll change it, but not in time to help those skaters. I&B did land it a few times, but they weren't that high profile or consistent, and a lot of people thought they were intentionally putting it in the second half so they could get a bonus even for falling on it.
     
  9. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    I think the SP is okay, but don't think S&S carry The Nutcracker well. I'm not crazy about V&S's long either, mostly because - as is so often the case with medleys - the music is choppy, which compromises the coherency of the program (IMO). I do love the Masquerade Waltz though.

    While I prefer the Russians to the Germans and think they have more of the wow factor, IMO their long program doesn't measure up to signature Russian's pairs Olympic programs (B&S 2002, M&D and G&G, 1994).

    Yes, they are well-matched and have great unison, and yes, Tatiania is in a class of her own as a female pairs skater.

    But, I think the difference in quality between the two teams is being exaggerated and feel that S&S aren't getting the credit that is due them from the commentators. The Eurosports commentators described them as having learned to settle for playing second fiddle to a much more powerful and young team and I'm sure the Canadian commentators are not the only other commentators to already have handed V&T the Olympic gold.

    Robyn and Aliona are four time world champions and while perhaps not at the very top of their game, still a class above most of the field. In a fair world, if they skated clean and with heart, and V&T made mistakes, S&S should have a shot at the title. As it is, V&S probably have a three -mistake advantage. Robyn and Aliona do have a similar advantage over P&T (that was clear in China) that I personally don't agree with, but I love P&T. Even so, it's like they are being prepared to skate for silver, as a consolation prize.

    Not to mention, Robyn and Aliona usually start the season slow. They've got lots of miles left to put on their programs, so final critiques of the program are not yet warranted.

    Robyn and Aliona aren't even being led to believe that they have a chance - that is, if they are listening to TPTB in FS (which they may not be) - and that has got to be hard on them. You don't hear commentators making comments about other skaters in similar 'second fiddle' positions. They don't diminish Takahashi by saying he's older and slower than Chan, and clearly inferior to Chan. Instead, they present him as a contender to Chan. The same with Virtue/Moir. Their placement last season and how they started out this season could easily lead commentators to draw the 'second fiddle' conclusion, but they don't. Or, haven't 'yet'.

    It must be really hard for Robyn and Aliona to find motivation, if they know - and believe - they are competing for silver. If so, that could be one of the reasons for the mistakes they made in China.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2013
  10. Lis

    Lis Active Member

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    Well said Japanfan just one thing.... I really like Aljona and Robins FP otherwise I totally agree with you :)
     
  11. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Out of interest how do S&S compare to V&T in terms of speed and ice coverage? I know the British Eurosport commentators said that S&S were slow in places, and I've never seen them skate live to know what they are usually like? Are they comparable to V&T because when I saw V&T live, they were considerably faster than the other pairs, and had impressive ice coverage.
     
  12. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    Neither pair to me has great programs. The Germans work is just not smooth. in 2006 their Short Program made me late to work watching it on Youtube. Now, i'm not as impressed. They were winning so easily until the past 2 seasons i think they ignored great innovative choreography and now they are in a pickle because the Russians have elements to DIE for. The Russians to me lived in the land of Morosov and have this tacky choreography that is so forgettable. They are to me the team that can leave a legacy of incredible skating in this sport but they dont have the goosebump factor that Shen/Zhao, Elena/Anton, G&G, Sale/Pelletier, etc. and it's largely because of their material. The Russians look like they will win in Sochi and they deserve too but their work will never make them sentimental favorites which is a shame because they are beyond capable. The Germans really could use a creative eye like Nichol or even Sarah. K but they are so vested in Ingo's POV ( against his advice at time) that they wont. I mean, do you REALLY see David Wilsons hand in their work even though they worked with him? NO! lol.
     
  13. Lis

    Lis Active Member

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    Well only Wilson can tell us that :)
     
  14. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all this, very well said, Japanfan.

    Yes, Aliona & Robin have rather suddenly fallen from top pair in the world to disrespected also-rans. What's too bad is it's actually the second time this has happened to them. In 2008/2009 they were on top of the world, then Shen/Zhao came back and all the attention shifted to them. It was like no one even cared any more that Aliona/Robin were going for Olympic gold, too. Granted, Aliona/Robin had a number of problems in 2009-2010, but still. Now it's the same thing all over again with Volosozhar/Trankov. I feel bad for Aliona/Robin, I think they must surely be one of the most underappreciated 4-time World champion teams ever.
     
  15. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    Well I for one absolutely love and respect S/S and still hope they accomplish their dream. I actually like their programs this season especially the SP. I am glad they went the more 'tradional' route this season beecause in 2010 they struggled with thteir LP and had to change it and I think it really hurt them and set them back. I hate that they are banking on the throw 3axel as they be all and end all. I sometimes feel when I watch them now that they feel all hope is lost. Easy for me to say but I wish they could just go out and enjoy their final performances together and not worry about the results. They have nothing to prove to anyone, Olympic gold medal or not they are one of the greatest pairs teams ever to grace this sport and there will be a huge void when they are gone.

    V/T their SP is fine IMO, the LP is........let's just say it's a disappointment. That said they are absolutely brilliant skaters(especially Tatiana), spectacular, so gifted. I just wish they had the programs to match. That is something S/S do have. An amazing and memorable body of work to look back on. Maybe V/T will have that to if they stick around after Sochi. I hope they do because they deserve that and their programs thus far, minus their out of this world skating, do not do them justice.
     
  16. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    Aliona and Robin are competing for the Olympic gold medal, this is what they have their eyes set on, this is why they stayed in for another four years after Vancouver. Obviously, it will be very hard to win, especially since Tatiana and Maxim have started to strongly into the season.
    However, as you wrote, Aliona and Robin started slow into the season. They told me at Cup of China, that their LP there was the first full run-throughs with all elements. They basically made two mistakes - both on the double Axel (she singled, he stumbled) and on the throw triple Axel (she fell). Not so bad for a first run-through. Some other elements didn't get the level the skaters aimed for. Of course they were asked about the high scores of Tatiana and Maxim, and coach Ingo Steuer said that if they do everything the way they imagine it, then they'll get these big scores as well.

    The throw triple Axel is not an easy question. They could have said they'll focus on their conistent elements and hone them. That's what Tatiana and Max said they did, not going for something new, but stick to what they have. On the other hand Aliona, Robin and Ingo feel they need something special in order to have a chance to fight for the gold.
     
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  17. Finnice

    Finnice Well-Known Member

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    ^Thank you, Eislauffan, this was an important post. So we can hope that the LP will get greater and greater during the season. I really wish that Savchenko and Szolkowy will feel it was worth staying the extra four years. For us fans it has been a great, great gift and pleasure to watch their skills and innovativeness in post-Vancouver years.
     
  18. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    But in post #92 in this thread Sylvia posted a link to an interview with ingo where he says that if every skates to the best of their ability he believes the Russians will win followed by the Germans. It doesn't sound like they really believe that they can win the gold.
     
  19. allezfred

    allezfred Mince Pie Depriving Admin Staff Member

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    Yes, it's Yuna Kim a la 2010 all over again. The amount of GOE that Volosozhar/Trankov get is just too much of a cushion.
     
  20. bek

    bek Guest

    But I think V/T deserve huge GOE for their elements. That triple twist and those throws are spectacular. They have made the decision to perfect the elements that they have and it shows.

    I understand why people feel bad for S/S, but to be quite frank S/S haven't skated clean in a long time, and V/T have been skating spectacularly. No nation was going to sit back and just hand S/S gold. Of course China was going to bring S/Z back, and of course Russia was going to create V/T.

    At the end of the day, regardless of how they were treated by the press, S/S were marked extremely close to S/Z in the short program at Vancover. They made mistakes in the long program, as did S/Z. I have a feeling that if they had gone clean, they might very well had been the Olympic champions.

    I can't imagine the type of pressure V/T is going to be under in Sochi. As Russia's best hope for OGM in figure skating, and the OGM not just in any event, but in the event Russia owned for so long. I don't envy V/T that pressure.

    S/S are a great pair, and I think the skating world does respect that. They have made a huge influence on skating. However, I don't think they are as good as they once were.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2013
  21. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    I think Aliona and Robin's problem is that they used to be unbeatable in the times when there wasn't really anyone to beat them. Once they have to face their equals (S/Z and V/T), they somehow lose their confidence and make mistakes. But I do feel for them. Imagine dominating the world for so long, yet every four years when you're hoping to seal it with an OGM another great pair pops out of nowhere and steals the show from you.
     
  22. bek

    bek Guest

    But the thing is that neither V/T or S/Z came from no where. S/Z beat them fairly at worlds and then left for a couple of years, something that made sense for them given their age. As for V/T they've been around the entire quad and won last year.
     
  23. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I was really surprised Ingo said that publicly. In fact, I wondered if it was a translation error. Part of a coach's job is to talk up his skaters, not downgrade their chances.
     
  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Even the ones Volosozhar two-foots? Because they're getting +GOE for those, too. And PCS that even D/W and Chan would envy, for programs, shall we say, considerably less complex. It's easier to skate well when you have a posing section in the middle of the program.

    I'm fine with V/T being rewarded for what they do well - the twists are amazing for sure - but that's not all they're being rewarded for these days.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  25. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    They do deserve huge GOE for most of their elements, but S&S deserved huge PCS leads in certain categories which they never got. Pina was the most complex pairs program ever and deserved to give them a gap. V&T usually have bigger and better quality elements, but the transitions into the elements are also supposed to gain points. I love the rivalry between those two teams because IMO what one has in one area, the other makes up for in another... V&T do two different triples, but then S&S do a triple-triple sequence. V&T have a higher twist, so S&S come up with a fantastic entry for their twist. However, it seems like S&S can never make up the auto-pilot superhigh marks that V&T get. I like V&T a lot, but it's frustrating that the rivalry has been killed.

    That's why I totally understand why S&S have gone with simpler programs this season; it allows them to show off their skating skills more. T&M did this too when programs like Cotton Club weren't getting credit in the PCS and then they moved into their lyrical, emptyish program phase. S&S are going for the triple axel because if they rotate it the panel can't just pretend it wasn't there like they do with their transitions. They can't take away that base value from them. In order to focus on that, though, they have emptier programs and are still struggling with landing the jump, so it's unfair that now the takeaway is "oh, they are not as good as they were before." It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I don't expect S&S to win with mistakes anymore, but I'd like to feel like they at least have a chance if they're clean. V&T have only beaten them twice, and S&S have beaten them 3 times. It shouldn't seem so impossible on paper, but then V&T get these huge marks and it's a message to S&S.


    I know. I think he's right, but I was shocked. Imagine if Zoueva made a prediction about how the scores would go, lol.
     
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  26. Lis

    Lis Active Member

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    cherob721 that was a very good explanantion of what is going on and I totally agree with you
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  27. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Never say never, anything is possible, as long as one truly believes in it, the sky's the limit. :)

    Right now they're the underdogs, and that could work in their favor, less pressure, less limelight, more time to work on perfecting their programs. The Russians are the ones with all the pressure, in their homeland no less! :eek: Seriously, they'll have tons of pressure on them. And as we have seen time & time & time again pressure does affect the outcome at the Olympics.

    That said, the *best* competitions are when everybody skates their best and you win! :cool:
     
  28. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I really expected S/S to knock it out of the park this season with their awesome fs choreography like Schindler's List, The Pink Panther and Pina or their sp choreography like Send In The Clowns or Korobushka. I can even forgive them for being a little generic last year but this year they really should have come out fighting and although the choreography is good enough for any other team it's just not up to their (and Ingo's) standards.

    The sp costume blends into the ice too much and almost makes them invisible. I like that they do a 3T+3T+SEQ and not a 3T+2T like V/T. I appreciate them not resting on their laurels and continue to try the 3ATh, I hope they are able to land it when it counts and if not at least they tried.
     
  29. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Did she scrape the ice on one (two?) of the throws at NHK Trophy? At Nebelhorn? At Skate America? I am asking because I sure didn't notice that during the skates, even on replays and watching the skates repeatedly, although I had suspicions at NHK (actually, I always have them, because I know how hard it is for me to notice this during the skate itself). If there were scrapes of ice with the other foot that were barely noticeable it's not the same as two footing. Two footing is when a skater really lands on two feet. If a skater scrapes the ice just slightly with her other foot, I believe that other features/qualities of the throw can make up for it at least partially. Probably they shouldn't get +3 for such a throw, but +1 or even +2 is more or less okay.
     
  30. allezfred

    allezfred Mince Pie Depriving Admin Staff Member

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    I never said I didn't think they deserve their GOE. I just said it is a huge cushion that they have.