Alexandra Paul & Mitchell Islam

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skatingfan04, Mar 13, 2011.

  1. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

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    I hadn't thought of that possibility, but now that you've raised the idea I think it's a great suggestion.

    My personal opinion of the World Team Trophy is that it is a useless competition, but if it could be used strategically to qualify some skaters for next year's Grand Prix series perhaps it would serve some actual purpose. It's not out of the question that Paul/Islam could achieve a top-24 personal best. Right now the cutoff for top 24 total score is about 135 points. It may go up a bit based on 4CC, Europeans and World Juniors, but probably not too much. (Last year the cutoff was 131 points at the end of the season, so I really don't expect the cutoff to go up past the upper 130's this season).

    Paul/Islam's scores at Nebelhorn and Salt Lake City were 137.92 and 143.76. If they were to score something similar at the World Team Trophy, that would likely be enough to make top-24. Yes, I know that the scores at Nebelhorn and Salt Lake City were likely a bit inflated compared to a true ISU international competition like the World Team Trophy, but on the other hand P/I's Nebelhorn and Salt Lake City scores were early-season scores. They have improved since then, so I think the stricter judging at a true ISU international would be more than compensated by their improvement since the early season.
     
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Skate Canada had a chance to maximize the number of teams who competed in GP this year, but they didn't. Ralph/Hill were guaranteed one spot by being ranked 21 in WS, and they didn't need a host pick. Gilles/Poirier were in a trickier predicament, because there were three ways they could get a spot: 1. As a host pick 2. After all the guaranteed spots were assigned, since as a "Returning split couple," G/P would inherit Crone/Poirier's top score from their last season and be at the top of the Top 75 who hadn't been assigned two or 3. From the top of the substitutes list, since C/P's score at 2011 Worlds alone would have put them at #11 of the SB list. If Skate Canada had bypassed them, and no other Federation picked them in the first round -- which France did anyway for TEB -- and if the substitutions followed the GP Announcement rule that the Top 24 SB would be given the chance to substitute in rank order, they would have gotten Nazarova/Nikitin's spot at Rostelecom Cup instead of Orford/Williams, who were given NHK Trophy for their #21 SB. However, there was a conflicting rule, which is that any of the Top five on the alternates list could be picked, which the Federations followed, ignoring the other rule, and it's possible that G/P would have received no assignments.

    A safe course for Skate Canada would have been to keep one TBD slot open and waited until the September deadline to see how the chips would fall. G/P were already assigned to TEB anyway, O/W were selected as alternates on 6 June for a second spot, and Ralph/Hill would have had to have been chosen by another Fed because of their #21 WS. If G/P hadn't received a spot, they could have used the TBD, but, since G/P received one in the initial selection, they could have assigned the TBD to Paul/Islam. It would have been possible for G/P to be chosen off the alternates list as well.

    However, Skate Canada did none of those things, and it's pretty obvious that they've been doing everything possible to push G/P. There doesn't appear to be a strict pattern in terms of Skate Canada's choices for the host picks, aside from offering the senior National Champion or highest-ranked healthy senior team from the previous Nationals still competing. They've done a better job of dividing the spoils in this Olympic cycle.

    • 2009 Skate Canada: Virtue/Moir (1), Weaver/Poje (3), Chong/Gfeller (4). Crone/Poirier (2) got NHK and Rostelecom from placing 12th at 2009 Worlds.
    • 2010 Skate Canada: Crone/Poirier (2), Paul/Islam (Jr. 1, 2nd Jr. Worlds), Arnold/Trojek (10, only other international was 10th at 2010 Nebelhorn). Virtue (1) underwent surgery that year.
    • 2011 Skate Canada: Virtue/Moir (1), Weaver/Poje (2), Harvey/Gagnon (5). Paul/Islam (3) were assigned to NHK (#18 SB) and Ralph/Hill were assigned to Skate America (#19 WS).

    After WTT, the next best that Paul/Islam could hope for is a top 12 finish for G/P at Worlds and that Skate Canada came to its senses and maximized spots by letting other Federations choose them, especially since there's an outside chance that if W/P can't compete in London, they technically will be guaranteed only one spot at GP next year. (Sadly, there isn't a rule that if a skater is both Top 24 SB and Top 24 WS, that skater gets guaranteed two.) If Weaver/Poje aren't ready for Worlds, then they should hope for a Top 12 finish from O/W, which is much less likely.

    G/P, with 4C's and Worlds, should be able to stay Top 24 SB in any case and be guaranteed one. O/W will have to raise their score at 4C's (and/or Worlds) significantly to have a chance to be guaranteed a spot, since they're at #30 SB now, and there are a handful of teams within shot of their 130.10 who will compete at Euros/Worlds. If O/W aren't Top 12 at Worlds or don't raise their score to Top 24 and aren't chosen for GP in the initial selection by anyone else, I would not be surprised if Skate Canada were to choose them for a host spot over P/I, although, IMO, they should to make up for not choosing P/I this year, or at least leaving a TBD and using Nebelhorn as a skate-off for the third spot against Ralph/Hill.
     
  3. intentions

    intentions New Member

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    I thought at one time there was a requirement that the WTT team consist of the best skaters in the category. In dance, only one team is sent and it needed to be V/M. Has this changed, or is there a way to bypass this rule and send federation choice?
     
  4. intentions

    intentions New Member

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    I do hope, that if at all possible,P/I receive the WTT spot.

    I like P/I, and think they are at least as good, if not better, than G/P. It would have been interesting to see what their marks would have been were it not for the stumble.
     
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    You're right. I'd never looked at the announcement before to see the selection process for the participants. Even were V/M not to participate, P/I would be too far down the list to be considered.

    There are ways to get around the process, but mass food poisoning is hard to coordinate. There are several paragraphs worth of sanction this and sanction that for non-participants. The ISU is more strict about WTT than just about anything else, even more than for the Olympic team event, and, unlike for GP, the WTT announcement doesn't contradict itself or leave out entire selection groups.

    4C's and Worlds are the only places P/I could earn a higher SB score to earn a guaranteed spot. Otherwise, they're dependent on Skate Canada to assign a host spot.
     
  6. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

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    G&P have earned their success. Piper is not yet as strong a technical skater as Vanessa because she doesn't have as much international experience, but she is only going to get better each season. Paul of course is already one of the best male ice-dancers in Canada and he and Vanessa often beat W&P when they competed against each other, including for the 2010 Olympics and for the 2011 Canadian title.

    G&P have been together for less than 2 years so of course they aren't as polished yet as C&P were, but they worked hard to put down 2 solid programs at Nationals and were able to stay on their feet when unfortunately P&I and R&H were not. G&P are also becoming known for their lifts, and they even beat V&M in a couple of the technical areas in the Free Dance. Christopher Dean has taught Paul how to do some very complicated maneuvers that most other ice dance teams are not yet doing.
     
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    G/P had a good first nationals. G/P may have been favorably compared to V/M in a couple of technical areas in the FD at this year's Canadian Nationals by a Canadian judging panel, but their international scores weren't significantly higher than P/I's this season. I disagree that they justified having two GP's to P/I's none, and there was a reasonable scenario by which they would have gotten two anyway, one in the initial selection and one as an alternate in place of Orford/Williams, although the latter wasn't guaranteed.

    Aside from G/P, Skate Canada had a chance to let R/H be chosen by another Federation and leave a TBD open for Skate Canada, using Nebelhorn as a skate-off between R/H (for a second spot) or P/I for a first.
     
  8. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    Having been an avid fan of Crone?Porier over the last few years and realizing that they really didn't have a connection to one another but still were terrific skaters toghether, was really disappointed that they ended their partnership, and have since been rooting for the other Canadian teams who are coming into play. I was so impressed with P/I. They have a softness/smoothness to their skating and their moves are finished and precise (really bummmed out that they fell at Cans). Now, we are contending with Poirier with a partner with whom he has even less connection (he should have stayed in singles). Yes, they do a few tricky moves, but nothing they do moves me at all and to me they have no sex appeal at all together. All the other teams have it in spades and P/I are wonderful at portraying that connection whether they are doing a polka or waltz. I really hope they finally have some good luck with their assignments and competitions next year.
     
  9. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  10. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    Thank you for those links, skatingfan04. And videos from the Media Markt Eisgala are finally becoming available!

    Get Here

    Smooth Criminal (Alex, Sinead Kerr, and Jenny Weiss w/ Eman)

    Finale

    They appear to still be in the process of uploading show videos, so "In Your Eyes" may also turn up (unless they're only posting videos of the performances with live music accompaniment, which is possible).
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  11. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

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    Poirier should definitely not have stayed in singles - he is an ice dancer, not a single skater. He was doing single skating predominantly for the same reason that a lot of other ice dancers and pairs skaters do it for a while - it improves your single skating skills as a partner. And why should he have stayed in single skating when he wasn't advancing to the top whereas in dance he is a top-ranked skater? That wouldn't make sense.

    Despite being different people and having different levels of experience, Paul & Piper have managed to work well together and form a good connection in a short period of time. And they're already on their way to the Worlds together this year. They also do have their own chemistry - I'm not sure what type of 'sex appeal' you are looking for, but most of the other dance teams don't have much of that either.
     
  12. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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  13. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    They can usually finagle a way out of it if they want to.
     
  14. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    WTT selection is based on World Ranking. The highest ranked skater/team is designated for the WTT unless there is an injury.
     
  15. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I think where they haven't followed the rankings, there wasn't a team and/or two singles skaters in the Top 2 WS for that country and in the Top 10 at Worlds. V/T were able to skip WTT because B/L also met the criteria. Assuming V/M and W/P skate at Worlds and finish Top 10, Skate Canada will choose one of the two.

    If W/P don't skate as planned, the next couples in line are Orford/Williams (1672) and Gilles/Poirier (1329). Since W/P have 3311 and neither O/W nor G/P can pass them even by winning Worlds, then V/M will have to be appointed, if they're healthy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  17. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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  18. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    So, after a fabulous worlds, another season is in the books.

    Congrats to the incredible Virtue/Moir and Weaver/Poje!!!! (I got to see the FD in person, but I'll supress my urge to gush about how electric V/M's Carmen was, and how spellbinding W/P were since they're not the topics of this thread.)

    Turning our thoughts towards the Olympic season, I wonder what all of you are thinking about P/I's chances. Thank's to W/P's incredible comeback, Canada get's to send three teams to the Sochi Olympics!! After watching Gilles/Poirier (finally!) getting marked fairly at worlds, I think Skate Canada might be rethinking their tendency to hold G/P up nationally, which should bode well for P/I. Thoughts?

    For reference, there's already a great discussion going on this topic in a separate thread.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?87473-3rd-Canadian-dance-team-in-Sochi

    Additionally, I'm a but confused as to how the GP events are going to work out. Obviously, V/M and W/P get two apiece. Other than that, Canada has no one else ranked in the top 24 on the ISU standings. G/P finished out of the top 12 at worlds, so no guaranteed assignments for them. How does this work? Are V/M and W/P going to be the only Canadians on the circuit (with the exception of the host spot at Skate Canada), or do some of the others get assignments as well?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  19. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    This has me nervous, too. I can't remember all the ins and outs from last year..It will be really harsh if there's only the host pick up for grabs...
     
  20. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    G/P are in the top 24 Season's Best list, so they're guaranteed one assignment. But P/I never had an opportunity to obtain an ISU SB (can only be achieved at Grand Prix events or championships), and O/W are 26th on the SB list, so they're not guaranteed an assignment, either. Nor are R/H (43rd on SB).
     
  21. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    mmm...Was that qualifying score for G/P at 4CC ?
     
  22. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    Yep. None of their Grand Prix or Worlds scores would have met the top 24 (Worlds was actually their highest, but it was still one point lower than the 24th best score).
     
  23. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, a host pick is the only possible GP option for P/I. Since they aren't on the Seasons Best list (didn't participate in the GP or an ISU Championship event), they can't even get a substitute slot.
     
  24. blueglass

    blueglass New Member

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    My thoughts. After seeing G/P and P/I at Canadians and then the marks at Worlds for G/P, I think P/I should be able to get the third spot next year, assuming their streak of unfortunate falls ends. 18th is terrible in light of where he was positioned with Vanessa. I don't think they're going anywhere without some major changes and the international judges appear to be on the same page. P/I had better programs and better delivery. (I admit I disliked G/P's programs this year). My impression at Worlds is that Poirier needs to be reined in a bit if they want to have any hope at all of moving up.
     
    euterpe and (deleted member) like this.
  25. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

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    I haven't liked any of G/P's programs so far, not as competition programs. Their 2012 FD was fun ..as a show program.. I didn't get to see much of 4CC this year, until after the fact.. but my impression that G/P were over marked seemed to be a pretty generally held opinion. So this makes me feel pretty sick.

    Are any of the Senior Bs early enough to offer hope to our other teams ?..and would a senior B count ?
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Paul/Islam received 225 + 164 ISU World Standings ranking points for their 2nd and 5th place finishes, respectively, in their 2012 Salt Lake and Nebelhorn Senior B assignments. They didn't count for ISU Season Best scores this season, but SB scores may count at 2013 Nebelhorn Trophy because it is the designated 2014 Olympic qualifying competition.
     
  27. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    That won't help them as far as the GP is concerned, since those invitations are given out in June. I believe the 2012-2013 Seasons Best list is the criteria for the 2013-2014 GP invitation/substitute lists.

    Scores earned in 2013-2014 would be on a new Seasons Best list.
     
  28. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    I figured that P/I wouldn't be eligible for a GP event, so no surprise there. At least with G/P being guaranteed one it should up P/I's chances at getting the Skate Canada host spot, though O/W are fully deserving of that as well. Hopefully Skate Canada gives P/I senior B events again. If they impress there, that should help their bid for the Skate Canada spot as well. Fingers crossed. :)
     
  29. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    Thanks for all the info, everyone. I want so badly for them to make the Olympic team. They are one of my favourite teams and I always love their material. I hope they have better luck this year.

    Btw, lavenderblue, it is great to see you posting again:)
     
  30. lavenderblue

    lavenderblue Active Member

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    Out of curiosity, how many host picks does a federation officially have?

    Only three Canadian teams are immediately eligible for a Grand Prix assignment. V/M will obviously compete at Skate Canada. W/P would probably, like this year, be sent to other events to improve their own chances on the podium. Skate Canada would probably love to host G/P, but might also want to see that another federation shows support for the team by selecting them. If neither W/P nor G/P competed at Skate Canada, then would the federation be permitted to select two Canadian entries, or would they be obliged to sacrifice a pick in favor of a team automatically eligible for assignment?