Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skatingfan04, Mar 13, 2011.
Ralph/Hill and Orford/Williams' SB scores are below the criteria for the GP.
Can they be asked for host picks still?
Not quite. Their names were listed at both Skate Canada and CoR long before Virtue and Moir indicated that they intended to withdraw. Sarah Arnold and Justin Trojek were V/M's replacements and Skate Canada. They were never replaced at their other event (I can't recall if it was TEB or NHK, but it definately was not CoR)
I couldn't agree more. I really hope that they get two assignments again. I would assume as much, since they are now Canadian national team members. The depth in Canadian dance is quite astounding, isn't it?
For a country with 1/10th population as U.S.........we sure do.
The 4th couple is of course, Paul & Islam, the subjects of this thread. Not Orford/Williams.
Clearly R&H will have to do Nebelhorn or other Senior B this year.
I feel sorry for Ralph and Hill. They obviously want to get better, but being barred from the GP is a step down for them. I don't like this minimum scores for the GP thing.
If you're not on the world/4CC/euros team for your country, it seems you will get barely any international exposure now. Competing at senior bs isn't quite the same as competing in the grand prix. If you're borderline on the minimum scores for the GP, but you don't have them yet, the senior bs won't offer much intense competition for you.
I know, it's a shame I really do like Ralph & Hill, but I'll admit that as soon as I saw Paul & Islam's programs from junior worlds in 2010, I began to fear for Ralph & Hill's placement in Canada. They're already struggling, and taking them off of the GP circuit certainly won't do them any favours. I hope that they can achieve those minimums, becaue international events might help to push their progress along. I don't know what it is, but it seems to me that Ralph & Hill have hit a wall the last couple of years. They seem to have stopped improving and bringing new elemnts to the table. I really hope that they haven't reached their peak.
Ralph & Hill are definitely in a tough spot. The teams ahead of them all are young so arent going to move out of the way anytime soon. They are going to have to work hard to make any move.
Yikes...I'm going to stick my neck out, here... conditionally, that is. Much depends on what the five teams below V/M work on over the off-season .
I'm assuming V/M will stay in , and regain their national championship. So...
First, I think it's do or die time next year for C/P. With five placements between them and W/P , I really think they're in a catch up position , now, Canadian Championship notwithstanding. They must address their weaknesses , because W/P have really worked on theirs , and I don't think they'll let up now. I think they'll be inspired to work really hard to try to at least maintain their World placement. All these teams ( and Skate Canada ) must be painfully aware of the competitiveness of the international scene.
Alexandra and Mitch must know that that 3rd place Canadian spot is within the realm of possibility for them next year ( especially if they're continuing to progress at their former rapid pace ). Their technical scores were pretty competitive at Canadians .. and David Islam's report on how much speed they'd gained in the month following nationals sounded pretty positive. Sure, there could be a certain amount of PR there, but we've seen how fast they've progressed in the past , so maybe it's entirely accurate. We'll know in about 4 months. P/I have an advantage in danceability and interconnection . Another plus for them is that even at the Jr. level, their coach /school believes in the benefits of seeking outside help and experience for their pupils. I don't say they'll breeze by C/P, but I think it's within the realm of possibility for P/I to pass them.
It's really the L/R school that has to step up here..for C/P and also for R/H , because here, again, not only are R/H now decidedly trailing P/I , but H/G are not that far behind , if R/H's problem areas remain unaddressed.
ITA> I think it's possible that P&I could beat C&P next year.
Tarrah ( or Tara ? ) Harvey and Keith Gagnon , coached by Wing & Lowe.
Oh, thanks! I was getting confused with all the initials.
It's *possible* that they could beat C/P and W/P but I don't think they will..
Will P-I will work with Shpilband-Zueva for next season? I mean new programs?
Dont know... Honestly, Vanessa and Paul have there own face, style, difficult choreo in programs. But made for team, who want skate something unusuall difficult to take higher places? Dont know. I think C-P have very light skating, very easy move across the ice.
I like P-I too. But i think W-P have huge progress in skting this season too. So i really wish C-P and W-P made team Canada next season - i wish to see there skating at 4CC and at WCh.
To watch a lot off young teams skating is really greate, but i want to see how they grow up, how they will become better during years.
But i have also impression, that now ice dance teams from USA will not let to take Canadians high places. They are very talented and Shibs are World medalists now.
Thanks. My brain wasn't working. I'm actually going to see them today in a gala at their rink. I remember their SD from Canadians and they skated sooo close together.
I haven't heard a thing about them going to S/Z. I don't think so. They're with a good team, and I think S/Z are just about full up.
I also want W&P and C&P on the world team. I love both. But I also love P&I. Canada should have 4 places!
I don't necessarily think Shibs being bronze this yr means anything for next year. But W&P and C&P, and even P&B will have to step up and take it. Just because Shibs are ahead this year doesn't mean one of the other teams won't be ahead of them next year. K&N anyone? Also P&B will be skating at home next year, and hopefully will have learnt from this year and finally get their bronze medal. And of course I&K will be in the mix too.
alilou..In the little article PJ did with David Islam before World's , she was saying that Islam thought it was good for skaters to work with a variety of outside choregraphers , and then she wrote..like Zueva & Shpilband.. So, no-one knows if he actually mentioned their names , or if PJ just arbitrarily used them as an example ( or wanted to tease us ) . If it was him , and Z/S are not doing any choreo for P/I , why wouldn't Islam mention Haguenauer ( sp?), or Dubreuil / Lauzon ,instead.. both of whom they have worked with ? It was a tantalizing comment , but there's a chance PJ just picked their names out of the blue. Only time will tell.
While Zueva has done quite a bit of outside choreo in the other disciplines , I don't think I've heard of her doing dance choreo outside the S/Z school. Has anyone else ?
It's a puzzle.
This will be funny, if I-K will go to S-Z and P-I wil do the same.
So all young stars in the same group
Have David Islam and company ever coached a really high-level ice dance team?
I have no doubt that Paul/Islam have the talent to reach a very good level in ice dance. I'm not sure they'll do it with their current coaches, however.
I could be wrong about this, however. Sometimes coaches surprise us with how good they are as coaches once they are working with top-level talent. In other words, the restraint on their coaching success was not their ability as coaches, but that they were working with skaters that were good but not great.
I think after seeing P/I live that they have the "it" factor going for them.
I didn't really know a lot about David Islam before,I mean, I knew the Islam family was very involved in skating in Canada but hadn't really paid a lot of attention until I saw video of P/I at World Juniors last year..Here he is :
I enjoyed the very interesting ( and witty) comments he was texting to the commentators during one of the skatebuzz livestreams last year.. whatever that's worth...
But what I noticed right away with P/I at World Jr's and again this year, was the level of sophistication of their choreo , not only from their outside choreographers, but I was impressed with the work of their "in house" choreographer , Pavol Porac . And there's no denying the technical progress they've made in a short time.
Thanks Pratfall. I hadn't heard this. But maybe it would only be for choreo and not a complete move to S/Z school.
I love this team. I saw them live at Canadians this year. They just blew me away. They certainly have that "it" factor.
Re I&K going to S/Z - it's nothing more than a rumour started on this board from an interview with Piseev re Russian coaches only teaching Russian skaters. I think it was a complete misinterpretation of what was said. http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3168796#post3168796
I agree. I don't think it's anything more than speculation based on an intriguing comment...at least for now. I don't rule it out at some point ,since Elena has already been with their school.
For P/I , i'm eagerly anticipating their programs for the coming year.
OT..how did you enjoy the gala you went to ? ( and H/G , who might be a bit under appreciated )
See this thread
I was very impressed with H&G at Canadians, and had also enjoyed them at this same gala last time I went (about 2 yrs ago), but unfortunately yesterday not so much. They seemed shakey, and he fell, and they were quite slow. Just having a bit of an off day I guess. They did have some great lifts, and overall I enjoyed the choreo.
LOL C&P arent going to win a medal at Worlds last year after being 10th this year. They will be happy just to make it back to Worlds at all next season.
What was I thinking I think somehow in there I was getting the battle at Canadians for silver and bronze (W&P, C&P, P&I) mixed up with something I wanted to say in reply to pani's post about Shibs being world medalists now and that could mean that no Cdn teams (apart from V&M) could ever beat them. I'm just confused
P/I will probably Be invited to two events as they were ranked 18th in the season's best scores for 2010/2011.
In the world of ice dance in Canada, unfortunately P/I will need to spend some time growing, developing and waiting for the top teams to retire. But I think that is actually a very good thing. P/I absolutely must develop their own style. Right now, they look way too much like "V/M lite", which is not good for the long term. It's almost like they did it on purpose! If they did, that was very ill-advised. They have a ton of talent, but just need to "gel" a bit more together and find their own way. And they are still so very young. They need to mature a bit more physically yet. My prediction is that they are a solid 4th in Canada next season.
As for the rest of the field, I really think that V/M will be in a league of their own as long as they compete. And I hope they stick around for awhile, pushing the boundaries of the sport and ensuring 3 spots at Worlds for Canada. I hope they win gold in Sochi.
I think W/P and C/P will continue to battle it out for 2nd place. However, unless C/P address their deficiencies instead of simply behaving like nothing's wrong, they will finish behind W/P consistently. While W/P and C/P have finished really close all season, perhaps that wasn't always right. And W/P finished very convincingly ahead of C/P at Worlds. There is momentum. If W/P continue to work as hard as they have, and choose 2 fabulous programs next year instead of just 1, I think they will find themselves solidly in 2nd in Canada.
As for the rest of the field, it's a little more open. Unless R/H fix things, they are going to drop out of the 5th spot. They are looking like they are stuck in a rut in many ways. There is no real improvement year on year. H/G can be very engaging, but I felt they were over-scored last year. And now that both of them are all grown up, I'm not sure they match physically anymore. They seem to cover this well with humour and engaging programs, and they skate fast, but the lines aren't that good, and I'm just not sold on this team yet. Great people, but perhaps no longer a well-matched team. A/T were 7th this past year, and I think they have a chance to move up, given another year of skating together. Last year was only year #2 as a team, and I think they improved a great deal. They suffer a little from the same physical mis-match as H/G, but not quite as much. I think their technique is so much better than H/G.
And there are always a couple of teams that move up from Junior or just appear suddenly at Senior. I hope there are some nice surpises out of the lower ranked teams. Who is coming that will work hard and surprise us with their presence? Time will tell whether or not the success of O/W will translate to Senior. I personally feel they are a little over-hyped. They were 8th at Junior Worlds, but that perhaps is not high enough to translate well to Senior. We'll see. In my opinion, BC teams generally tend to skate with well developed themes, great costuming and presentation, and with speed and "cute" factor. I think this works well at Pre-Novice, Novice, and a little at Junior. I'm not sure it will work at Senior. The standard for quality edges, clean lines, finished movements, balanced teams, and overall quality skating will be much higher at Senior. I think there are a couple of gems in BC, but they are all so very young, and it is much too early to decide which of them will survive in the long-term, and be able to make the transitions successfully up the ranks.
I think that's just it. I wonder if C/P w/ Lane do recognize where they went wrong this season. Because if they don't, than I fully expect P/I to beat them at least once next season. It's definitely do or die time for them.
I'm mixed on P/I. On the one hand, I really dislike the V/M vibe they attempt to recreate. It makes me disregard them as knockoffs. On the other hand, their improvement between World Juniors and Thornhill's Summer skate knocked my socks off. I knew they had a steep learning curve in the 09/10 season, going from not even medalling at the JGP events to winning silver at juniors, but to see it demonstrated as they did was astonishing. I think they could surprise a lot of people next season and challenge C/P, if they improve the way they did and C/P don't improve at all. I think they could have a really terrific SD next season (they do have beauty, line and some charisma/chemistry).