Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skatingfan04, Mar 13, 2011.
ITA> I think it's possible that P&I could beat C&P next year.
Tarrah ( or Tara ? ) Harvey and Keith Gagnon , coached by Wing & Lowe.
Oh, thanks! I was getting confused with all the initials.
It's *possible* that they could beat C/P and W/P but I don't think they will..
Will P-I will work with Shpilband-Zueva for next season? I mean new programs?
Dont know... Honestly, Vanessa and Paul have there own face, style, difficult choreo in programs. But made for team, who want skate something unusuall difficult to take higher places? Dont know. I think C-P have very light skating, very easy move across the ice.
I like P-I too. But i think W-P have huge progress in skting this season too. So i really wish C-P and W-P made team Canada next season - i wish to see there skating at 4CC and at WCh.
To watch a lot off young teams skating is really greate, but i want to see how they grow up, how they will become better during years.
But i have also impression, that now ice dance teams from USA will not let to take Canadians high places. They are very talented and Shibs are World medalists now.
Thanks. My brain wasn't working. I'm actually going to see them today in a gala at their rink. I remember their SD from Canadians and they skated sooo close together.
I haven't heard a thing about them going to S/Z. I don't think so. They're with a good team, and I think S/Z are just about full up.
I also want W&P and C&P on the world team. I love both. But I also love P&I. Canada should have 4 places!
I don't necessarily think Shibs being bronze this yr means anything for next year. But W&P and C&P, and even P&B will have to step up and take it. Just because Shibs are ahead this year doesn't mean one of the other teams won't be ahead of them next year. K&N anyone? Also P&B will be skating at home next year, and hopefully will have learnt from this year and finally get their bronze medal. And of course I&K will be in the mix too.
alilou..In the little article PJ did with David Islam before World's , she was saying that Islam thought it was good for skaters to work with a variety of outside choregraphers , and then she wrote..like Zueva & Shpilband.. So, no-one knows if he actually mentioned their names , or if PJ just arbitrarily used them as an example ( or wanted to tease us ) . If it was him , and Z/S are not doing any choreo for P/I , why wouldn't Islam mention Haguenauer ( sp?), or Dubreuil / Lauzon ,instead.. both of whom they have worked with ? It was a tantalizing comment , but there's a chance PJ just picked their names out of the blue. Only time will tell.
While Zueva has done quite a bit of outside choreo in the other disciplines , I don't think I've heard of her doing dance choreo outside the S/Z school. Has anyone else ?
It's a puzzle.
This will be funny, if I-K will go to S-Z and P-I wil do the same.
So all young stars in the same group
Have David Islam and company ever coached a really high-level ice dance team?
I have no doubt that Paul/Islam have the talent to reach a very good level in ice dance. I'm not sure they'll do it with their current coaches, however.
I could be wrong about this, however. Sometimes coaches surprise us with how good they are as coaches once they are working with top-level talent. In other words, the restraint on their coaching success was not their ability as coaches, but that they were working with skaters that were good but not great.
I think after seeing P/I live that they have the "it" factor going for them.
I didn't really know a lot about David Islam before,I mean, I knew the Islam family was very involved in skating in Canada but hadn't really paid a lot of attention until I saw video of P/I at World Juniors last year..Here he is :
I enjoyed the very interesting ( and witty) comments he was texting to the commentators during one of the skatebuzz livestreams last year.. whatever that's worth...
But what I noticed right away with P/I at World Jr's and again this year, was the level of sophistication of their choreo , not only from their outside choreographers, but I was impressed with the work of their "in house" choreographer , Pavol Porac . And there's no denying the technical progress they've made in a short time.
Thanks Pratfall. I hadn't heard this. But maybe it would only be for choreo and not a complete move to S/Z school.
I love this team. I saw them live at Canadians this year. They just blew me away. They certainly have that "it" factor.
Re I&K going to S/Z - it's nothing more than a rumour started on this board from an interview with Piseev re Russian coaches only teaching Russian skaters. I think it was a complete misinterpretation of what was said. http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3168796#post3168796
I agree. I don't think it's anything more than speculation based on an intriguing comment...at least for now. I don't rule it out at some point ,since Elena has already been with their school.
For P/I , i'm eagerly anticipating their programs for the coming year.
OT..how did you enjoy the gala you went to ? ( and H/G , who might be a bit under appreciated )
See this thread
I was very impressed with H&G at Canadians, and had also enjoyed them at this same gala last time I went (about 2 yrs ago), but unfortunately yesterday not so much. They seemed shakey, and he fell, and they were quite slow. Just having a bit of an off day I guess. They did have some great lifts, and overall I enjoyed the choreo.
LOL C&P arent going to win a medal at Worlds last year after being 10th this year. They will be happy just to make it back to Worlds at all next season.
What was I thinking I think somehow in there I was getting the battle at Canadians for silver and bronze (W&P, C&P, P&I) mixed up with something I wanted to say in reply to pani's post about Shibs being world medalists now and that could mean that no Cdn teams (apart from V&M) could ever beat them. I'm just confused
P/I will probably Be invited to two events as they were ranked 18th in the season's best scores for 2010/2011.
In the world of ice dance in Canada, unfortunately P/I will need to spend some time growing, developing and waiting for the top teams to retire. But I think that is actually a very good thing. P/I absolutely must develop their own style. Right now, they look way too much like "V/M lite", which is not good for the long term. It's almost like they did it on purpose! If they did, that was very ill-advised. They have a ton of talent, but just need to "gel" a bit more together and find their own way. And they are still so very young. They need to mature a bit more physically yet. My prediction is that they are a solid 4th in Canada next season.
As for the rest of the field, I really think that V/M will be in a league of their own as long as they compete. And I hope they stick around for awhile, pushing the boundaries of the sport and ensuring 3 spots at Worlds for Canada. I hope they win gold in Sochi.
I think W/P and C/P will continue to battle it out for 2nd place. However, unless C/P address their deficiencies instead of simply behaving like nothing's wrong, they will finish behind W/P consistently. While W/P and C/P have finished really close all season, perhaps that wasn't always right. And W/P finished very convincingly ahead of C/P at Worlds. There is momentum. If W/P continue to work as hard as they have, and choose 2 fabulous programs next year instead of just 1, I think they will find themselves solidly in 2nd in Canada.
As for the rest of the field, it's a little more open. Unless R/H fix things, they are going to drop out of the 5th spot. They are looking like they are stuck in a rut in many ways. There is no real improvement year on year. H/G can be very engaging, but I felt they were over-scored last year. And now that both of them are all grown up, I'm not sure they match physically anymore. They seem to cover this well with humour and engaging programs, and they skate fast, but the lines aren't that good, and I'm just not sold on this team yet. Great people, but perhaps no longer a well-matched team. A/T were 7th this past year, and I think they have a chance to move up, given another year of skating together. Last year was only year #2 as a team, and I think they improved a great deal. They suffer a little from the same physical mis-match as H/G, but not quite as much. I think their technique is so much better than H/G.
And there are always a couple of teams that move up from Junior or just appear suddenly at Senior. I hope there are some nice surpises out of the lower ranked teams. Who is coming that will work hard and surprise us with their presence? Time will tell whether or not the success of O/W will translate to Senior. I personally feel they are a little over-hyped. They were 8th at Junior Worlds, but that perhaps is not high enough to translate well to Senior. We'll see. In my opinion, BC teams generally tend to skate with well developed themes, great costuming and presentation, and with speed and "cute" factor. I think this works well at Pre-Novice, Novice, and a little at Junior. I'm not sure it will work at Senior. The standard for quality edges, clean lines, finished movements, balanced teams, and overall quality skating will be much higher at Senior. I think there are a couple of gems in BC, but they are all so very young, and it is much too early to decide which of them will survive in the long-term, and be able to make the transitions successfully up the ranks.
I think that's just it. I wonder if C/P w/ Lane do recognize where they went wrong this season. Because if they don't, than I fully expect P/I to beat them at least once next season. It's definitely do or die time for them.
I'm mixed on P/I. On the one hand, I really dislike the V/M vibe they attempt to recreate. It makes me disregard them as knockoffs. On the other hand, their improvement between World Juniors and Thornhill's Summer skate knocked my socks off. I knew they had a steep learning curve in the 09/10 season, going from not even medalling at the JGP events to winning silver at juniors, but to see it demonstrated as they did was astonishing. I think they could surprise a lot of people next season and challenge C/P, if they improve the way they did and C/P don't improve at all. I think they could have a really terrific SD next season (they do have beauty, line and some charisma/chemistry).
I was very impressed by P&I at this year's Nats. Already, they have excellent posture and lines, skate close together and match beautifully - these are attributes that many teams struggle with for years and never achieve. Alex's positions in lifts are fantastic. Chemistry is coming along decently.
IMO it's easier to start with these characteristics, then add power and speed, than it is to clean up skating that is speedy but lacks refinement.
They've had enough people tell them and their coaches that they resemble a younger V/M to get the message, I'm sure. Whether it was intentional or not, with any sense they'll avoid comparisons in packaging next season. They definitely need to grow into a "sense of themselves" as a team.
I do think that they can challenge for the podium at Nats next year, if they work really hard and listen to feedback.
I couldn't agree more. I do think they've got great chemistry for a newer team, but I think the real test of that will come with the Rhumba SD. Based on how good their chemistry was in their tango SD this season at Thornhill, though, I doubt they'll have to much trouble in that area.
As for the V/M comparison thing, I really don't see it as much of a problem. Honestly, for me, the comparison was more in Alexandra's look and carriage than it was in their style. Paul & Islam have only had one romantic program to date, which I guess is what many people consider to be Virtue & Moir's signature style (although they're so versatile I honestly don't see why), and its not as if Virtue and Moir invented that style. The stylistic similarities really came from great lines, excellent unision and a natural ease across the ice. While I think that exploring new styles is exactly what Paul & Islam. or any new team for that matter, should be doing, I really hope that they don't take this Virtue & Moir comparison too seriously. I would hate to see them try and sacrifice the traits that make them such a beautiful team to watch because they're afraid of looking too much like another team. If the things that make Paul & Islam look like Virtue and Moir are all of the qualities of a world class team, then its crazy to expect them to change anything.
Agreed very much with this. I think the qualities in which P/I naturally show the greatest promise overlap to a degree with certain of the qualities which make V/M as great as they are; the newer team shouldn't feel pressured not to emphasize those strengths simply because of the "they're ripping off V/M!!!" outcries from some, especially when it's those same strengths that have allowed them the success they've had thus far. And to be honest, their FD this season reminded me more in some respects of D/L than V/M -- not totally surprising, given the choreographers, but something worth noting. The romantic, lyrical style doesn't belong exclusively to V/M, nor would they or should their fans want that to be taken as a given.
I'm very excited to see what they do next season, and I do believe they have a shot at making the world team even assuming that V/M compete in 2011-12. One of their greatest assets is their connection, which is something that, combined with continued technical progress, could give them an edge over a team like C/P. C/P started off strong this season with a more abstract, technically challenging FD, but I think their lack of connection really hurts them in the end -- with them there's always eventually a sense of watching two skaters skating at the same time, more than of two performing as one. It will be interesting to see how each Canadian team responds to this year's results in their plans for next season's programs.
I think P/I's team may not have tried to create a V/M vibe so much as just not go out of their way to avoid it. The main thing that they could have done to lessen the effect would have been to go with a different choice of FD costume for her. Intentional or not , I agree they should avoid any such similarities in future.
Actually, Alexandra has even more balletic lines than Tessa, which is an asset they'd be foolish not to take advantage of occasionally, so I do expect to see more soft , romantic programs from them in the future ( but I hope not exclusively ).
So far, Alexandra always seems to have well designed, beautifully executed costumes, she should just try to avoid the same palette as Tessa. If her last year's FD costume had not come so close to the colour of Tessa's Mahler costume , I don't think there would have been as much talk of them trying to emulate V/M .( In fact, it couldn't hurt for Mitch to adopt a more Scott-like silhouette in his costumes. I think his pants are too baggy ,which makes you think he's too skinny..especially when combined with suspenders. He's not ever really going to look like Scott , he's a totally different build. )
So, apart from the one costume , and the fact that both girls have had a lot of ballet training and have generally similar colouring , I don't see any great likeness between the two couples and I think the V/M lite thing has been a bit overplayed. I certainly wouldn't want Alexandra to lose her beautiful carriage , floaty arms , stretch , or pointed toes just so she won't be compared to Tessa. ( Let's face it , probably every female Canadian Ice Dancer is going to be compared to Tessa from here on out. )
I admit to feeling a bit ambivalent about the Z/S choreo tease , because even though I think Zueva , in particular , is a genius at designing programs that enhance the skaters' skills and talents, if she choreographed for P/I , it might invite even more of this V/M wannabe business....OTOH , it could help them to establish their own persona as a couple.
ETA: Hear, hear flowerpower , skatingfan and lavenderblue.. I obviously agree !( I was stuck in mid-post limbo while you were posting )
i think p/i should do whatever they want to do and not worry about, oh gosh, what if somebody thinks we're imitating? so what? if you're good at *whatever it is you do*, you will put your own stamp on it. no style belongs exclusively to any one couple.
a bit off topic but come on, what did grinkov say when oleg protopopov grumbled about G&G skating to moonlight sonata? the music belongs to beethoven, not oleg protopopov, or something like that?
i like both v/m and p/i. given tessa's health concerns, the possibility that she may not be able to continue as long as fans would like--heck, even if she were perfectly healthy and hasn't had to endure multiple operations, i'd still love to see as many v/m clones as possible. v/m can't possibly skate long enough for me to see them skate to all the wonderful music and rhythm that exists in the world. i like that 'look', that sappy young in love... thing...
come on, you think if grinkov were still around, and G&G were the undisputed master of the 'in love' style, people would be bashing every russian newcomer pair who tries to skate to romeo and juliet?
Couldn't agree more with everyones comments. Its nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks some have taken the V/M lite thing way overboard.
BTW, lavenderblue, I totally agree with your comments on C/P. You were able to put into words what I've been trying to get at in my earlier posts.
Actually, thanks to everyone for their great comments. I was hoping for this type of livelyt discussion when I opened the thread.
According to the Skate Canada Central Onatrio website, Paul & Islam were in a show a few days ago, along with Patrich Chan, Crone & Poirier and Andrei Rogozine. I belive it was called the Margaret Garrison Memorial Gala. Now, this event was broadcast on Skatebuzz (Skate Canada's other official site), but I saw no promo for it this time around. Did anyone attend the show, take any pictures or find video from the event? I'd love to hear a review. Thanks!!
Aw, it was broadcast on Skatebuzz? I'd seen the notice on the Athletes Appearances page but didn't realize it was going to be streamed anywhere (er, assuming it wouldn't have been geoblocked for someone in the US...).
I'd love to hear something as well!
I checked skatebuzz, but the most recent vids are of the recent Adult championships. So I don't know if they streamed it ( events usually stay up for a while ) maybe they will post it after the fact?
For future reference ,they don't geoblock. And when they have commentary..it's really fun.
Oh, excellent. I've caught a few things on there with no trouble, but I was unsure as to whether that would apply for all or if some things might be blocked.
Hoping they post it, then!
Jeesh. I wish I'd known. I really like this team.....they've got all the goods so far with lots of potential and a great connection to each other.
Sorry for the confustion What I meant was that this event was broadcast through Skatebuzz LAST year. There was no indication that this years' version, which took place a few weeks ago, would be broadcast.
Not video, but Justine Chiu has posted some lovely photos from the event on her website. Looks like Alex and Mitch performed their FD.
Thanks for the link, lavenderblue. Those are lovely shots!
I saw the COS gala show and it was great. Patrick Chan was awesome as usual, and the whole show flowed wonderfully. Unfortunately Alex and Mitch did not have their best skate with a few stumbles and I believe a missed lift but they are a great team none the less. The rest of the dance teams skated flawlessly. A highlight for me was the icemen. If you haven't had a chance to see them live, try to, they were great fun.
I found some really cute practice videos from before the COS show on Youtube. There is very little Paul/Islam, but a lot of Patrick Chan, Bryce Davison and Dylan Moscovitch.
There was also a clip of the final bows from the show...
... and a couple of different clips of The Ice Men performing.
There was also a short photo gallery posted on Flikr.
Crone & Poirier have officially split up. This is definately going to shake things up nationally this year, although I think its now safe to assume that the world team for 2012 will be Vritue/Moir, Weaver/Poje and Paul/Islam, barring any injuries or unforseen major improvements from other teams.
Yep. It's unfortunate on C/P's end -- though I thought they were great at Skate Canada, but stagnated past that point -- but certainly a boon for P/I. I wonder what this will mean for GP assignments?
Well obviously not much. They've only been assigned to NHK.
I am very surprised that they weren't assigned to Skate Canada. I wonder who Skate Canada is saving that third "TBA" spot for? Harvey & Gagnon? Arnold & Trjoek? Ralph & Hill?
It's sad that they are really losing momentum and reputation vs. their world junior contemporaries like I&K and the Shibutanis.
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