Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by quiqie, Mar 17, 2013.
Shame it was their only really good competition this season.
Yeah shame. It will be seen if that was enough for them to either take all the federations advice and go in a different direction with someone else or stay on the same path. Or if that comment was true that morozov said about bronze or bust and no I/k anymore.
If that was a true comment then he's a shittier boyfriend than I initially imagined.
He said he'll stop working with I/K if they won't be "fighting for top three", not if they won't medal. He chose his words carefully and I took his comment as directed towards the federation to give I/K more political support than before.
If that's the standard does euros mean he got what he wanted but because I/k bombed worlds by mistakes and therefore doesn't count toward fighting for top 3? Because they werent clean and couldn't be top 3.
Of course. They didn't get a medal but that was very good result. I just mean if you talking about Euro results, Morozov not better than Zhulin.
Oh, come on, stop being bitchy. Surely second place at both GP events were also good results? Or do you think they should have won it? It is a bit optimistic to expect them to beat V-M in one GP event and D-W in the other one!
I don't know honestly, but I don't think that interview means much at all. As I said, in my opinion it was a signal to the Russian fed to start supporting I/K as their number one team or he won't be working with them. I/K did get the support, so I think that's all that mattered. Nikita said in one of post-worlds interviews that they'll stay with Morozov as their coach for next season. I do think that the Fed will be monitoring their work a lot closer this off-season though. No more skipping test skates, and I think they will send someone to monitor how the new programs are developing. I am afraid Nikolai won't be able to hide from Tarasova this time until the start of the season.
Why would Morozov hide from Tarasova anyway? He was her assistant and they both have the same kitsch taste.
True But she was quite critical of the programs he made for his students during her commentary at Russian Nationals, it looks like she is unhappy with him these days.
I find it staggering that a few are blasting Zhulin for his comments, he is totally entitled to his opinion and people who think he is wrong for voicing it are deluded.
''He should move on'' oh please, I/K are one of the most talked about team of the last 5 or 6 years, everyone will always have an opinion onthem. I heard more chat about Ghost in London than D/W v V/M. I have zero doubt with Zhulin, I/K would not be skating the utter RUBBISH that was the Ghost freedance. A laughable piece of shit that only skaters with their talent could make look semi decent. Zero transitions, mediocre lifts, full blown forward crossovers (!!) before the final diag step seq, bad use of the ice surface, the whole thing was a complete joke.
I wont even start on the 'we are so cool practice costumes' and the hideous facial fake expressions.
Should I start on their 'polka'? I better not, save to say it wasnt a Polka, Nikolai!
I still believe I/K potentially have the best skating skill in the world (above V/M) and to see them skating the way they are with Morozov is just painful. He cannot choreograph a free dance under these new rules. He has his own warped idea about the vision of a free dance and I honestly think he believed 'Ghost' was going to be their breakthrough signature and a masterpiece. Pass the bucket.
I hate it when posters, who dont know the skaters personally, comment as if they are there with them everyday. Zhulin says they have an attitude problem and I have no reason no to believe him. The fact that Morozov is sleeping with a teenager, who is his pupil (who skates with her ex boyf) is just vile.
Everyone believed I/K would be challenging for a medal by Sotchi, even a gold at home, now a bronze seems unlikely. Ive heard they are going to try and pull them away from Morozov now
but even if they do, its too late for Sotchi. I am not blaming all their troubles on Morozov, maybe they are incapable of their crazy potential, it has happened before, many times.
Morozov himself needs to rethink hard because Leonova, Takahashi, I/K sucked and sucked hard. Takahashi's program were not 1% of what they were the last few years and even if Camerlengo did the free, by time Morozov pissed all over it, it was dead by February.
Also if Morozov had half a brain he would have left Takahashi's short alone (it was just fine) and concentrated on working on the quad in the last 6 weeks, rather than make him spend all the time rehearsing a new, very generic empty short, with no quads in sight. I digress....
Back to I/K, one last point, even if Volkov was doing all the work, well Don Quixote was a damn lot better than Ave Maria or Ghost!
I/K's Don Quixote was a complete disaster. From Elenas costumes which interfered with basic moves from actually placing 4th in the free dance at Russian natiOnals to where not only r/t was better then them but a team with only one ice dancer k/a!! Who knows where I/k would be now with zhulin. They basically not only Fell behind k/a in Russia but junior teams they beat just months before. Their whole careers were collapsing and a change was totally necessary. Are they just too stupid to not have realized falling behind s/s and k/a at Russian nationals was actually fine and no big deal and now would be world bronze medalists?? LOL!! Like zhulin was doing good or something. At leas with morozov they have been doing so much better and were a solid second place and weren't losing to non-ice Dancer teams. But then it all goes back to I/k hate working and training. Well there is a solution to that I'd it's true!! No gps from Russia. The Russian fed just stops all support! It happened to sokolova!! Jus dropped totally!
Don Quixote was a beautiful classical program, challenging for a young team because it needed a lot of precision and every line had to be perfect. Young teams need challenges in order to make progress. I loved the costume - an elegant and understated tutu made for her at the costume workshop of the Bolshoi Theatre.
I'm sure you are aware that you are tweaking the facts in order to fit your theory but I wish to make some corrections for the benefit of those who don't follow I/K as rabidly as you and me.
Before the 2011 Russian Nationals at which I/K placed 4th in the free dance (3rd overall) Elena had injured her foot due to a boot problem and they were unable to train for the Nationals. They did well to earn a place for the Euros, considering it was only their first senior year.
The couple that you call "a team with only one ice dancer" included the European Champion and World bronze medalist Jana Khokhlova. So it was I/K, a junior-aged team in their first senior year against the European Champion and one of Tatiana Tarasova's personal favorites.
Riazanova/Tkachenko who beat I/K at the Nationals were really good that season. I saw them live at TEB where they finished 2nd and their speed and depth of edges were impressive. Don't know why you disparage them as "junior skaters" as they are quite older than Elena and Nikita. Especially Ilia, even if we believe his ISU bio, he is 5 years older, which makes them 19 and 24 at the time, an enormous difference for male skaters. There was no shame in their losing to R/T at the nationals considering, but anyway I/K beat R/T at the Euros.
Please, in what sense are they doing "so much better"?
Two crucial years have passed. This year they haven't overtaken ANY of the teams that they lost to in 2011 at the Euros or Worlds. On the contrary they have fallen behind Capellini/Lanotte and the new team of Chock/Bates. They are not doing AT ALL better!
SLIVER, thank you for your post. I totally agree.
Free Takahashi and I/K!
I know khokhlova was a euro champ and world medalist. She was the ice dancer on the team! So she and andreev beat I/k. I didnt remember illinykh having an injury.
When I referred to a junior team I meant s/s at worlds after but also the gp events.
Last year at worlds it was d/w v/m p/b w/p and I/k! So that was with morosov. They were 5th. So 2013 worlds was a horrible event for them and they were getting low levels so morosov is part of great success for I/k and big failures at worlds 2013 but not before. It was almost an unbroken rise from the time they switched to morosov until 2013 worlds.
I mean it would be nice For them if they got something other than unrelenting criticism from all quarters. All their recent success before 2013 worlds means nothing because they are coached by morosov and now they bombed at a worlds with him so now it will be horrible programs and nothing but failure and no success.
Elena's costume in 2010-2011 turned out to be totally wrong and didn't matter that it was authentic bolshoi it was stupid for ice dance!
I agree with SLIVER too. Morozov has clearly lost his coaching mojo this season (choreography mojo has been gone a long time ago already).
Also, free Amodio as well!
I totally agree with Sliver on all points.
This is the saddest thing about this. I/K's potential is just incredible and both of their programs in the year they won Junior Worlds are iconic. Their SS are just sublime. They are so smooth and light over the ice and have so much flow. So to see a team who could potentially challenge for Olympic gold, if all the stars aligned, keep falling down the rankings is very very sad.
(Same with Takahashi getting a totally empty generic SP)
Everyone in this thread seems to wish I/K well. People are only discussing what is not working for them. There's no need for you to get so defensive. If a team so insanely talented that they should be contending for gold in Sochi now looks totally out of contention for any medal - they are not even the Russian number ones - of course people realise something is not working.
As for the programs, the free dance is a humongous atrocity! At the Euros they skated it well and still I thought so. A couple should be helped by their program and not look good despite their program.
It's a miracle that Morozov didn't split this couple. A teenage team who were boyfriend-girlfriend were left under Morozov's care, they were even sent to the USA with him when Elena was just 17, without her family, and what did he do? Thank goodness Nikita didn't leave for another partner, because the situation must have been unbearable for him.
Not having a moral compass doesn't necessarily mean being a bad coach, but in this case the line that he crossed was dangerous for I/K, both personally and professionally.
You clearly have no taste if that's what you think.
Somehow I find myself agreeing with everyone here.
I loved Don Quixote. Their musicality was great, and they skated with more precision then, and I think, much better posture. casey I think the tutu was a good idea, actually, because I&K appear to be skating very far apart these last two season with Morozov, so rather than the tutu causing problems IMO it could very well be that Zhulin was trying to hide the problem with the tutu. Ave Maria and Ghost simply can't compare with Schindler's List or Don Quixote.
There was a lot of disappointment that season too, and yes, many disastrous outings (and I do think losing to K&A in the FD was a very big deal, just look at their results from their few internationals; not a top team at all). The worst thing was the lifts. Ballet is so rife with inspiration for beautiful lifts, but theirs were ugly, recycled, and even then not well-executed. Morozov has done a slightly better job finding them less acrobatic lifts that work for them. So he is not totally useless.
In some ways DQ hurts me more than Ghost because it was such a gorgeous concept with so much potential and never quite got there. Ghost is a piece of crap, but was at least skated to perfection at Euros.
I don't think it's fair to say "I&K beat this team under Zhulin or that team under Morozov." They can "pass" S&S, C&L, etc with one good performance, so I'm not worried there. The teams they have not beaten overall ever IIRC are V&M, D&W, B&S (except for 2012 Worlds where B&S fell), W&P, P&B, and C&B (but that's really more cause they haven't competed against them too many times). That is a damn shame, because they have more natural talent than almost all of those teams.
What they need to learn is the discipline. They need to be put with a coach that will pay them so much attention that they want to run away. They don't seem to be the types to work independently. They need a nun with a stick.
Sure he is entitled to his opinion, but when it contain bashing his past students, it sort of leave bad taste. He has no class whatsoever!
But when his past students left him, they bashed him left and right, ruining his reputation. I don't blame him for feeling hurt still and feeling like he has to defend himself from all the accusations his past students made against him.
They bashed each other. Zhulin was bashing them and they were bashing him. Now two years past, so he had plenty of time to calm down, and in my opinion, he is the professional, so he should have shown some professional behaviour. Unfortunately, he is lacking that.
Did he bash them back then? I honestly don't remember. I remember him saying how unexpected their decision was for him. Anyway, I do agree that it would be better for him to stop commenting on I/K, but I don't blame him for not being able to move on just yet. I think all those Nikita's comments must have hurt him deeply.
I know people didn't like "Ave Maria" either but I think that program actually had some interesting ideas in the way it was designed. The pattern over the ice, the way it was layed out - those things were a little unusual and interesting. The program was quite empty and unfinished but it could have been very good if it got more fleshed out. Which never happened.
"The Ghost" however is a total disaster. A generic, empty program with an amount of cross-overs to rival Plushenko and Joubert.
I think that regardless of Elena's age at the time, sleeping with your student is just not professional and is obviously going to have impact on the training process. I don't think that you can successfully mix those two kinds of very different relationships which play by different rules.
It was the program that they were skating when they fell behind k/a at a competition! it didn't work to get success for them so it was a disaster. Looking back on it with fondness is bizarre!
And they aret tumbling down the ranking. For their seasons with Morosov unitil worlds 2013 it was nothing bt more success and more medals. They weerent even as good as Hoffman/Zavozin when they were with zhulin!
Elena is old enough to do what she wants. So whatever. I/k were going up the standingS under morozov until 2013 worlds.
No team but dw or vm was going to be gold contenders in Sochi.
Of course a team should not be doing well despite their programs- that's obvious. But the doing well part was very clear for I/k until 2013 worlds.
I/K have the talent to be in V/M and D/W territory. Easily. If they trained hard enough and had the right programs, they could be gold medallists in Sochi. Obviously with the way things have been, there's no way it's going to happen.
I thought it was interesting that in this interview Zhulin said he thought I&K would be challenging for second place (one of the few not to lump V&M and D&W together all the time). He seems to prefer V&M, so I wonder if he thought it was D&W that I&K could be beating. Sigh, they do have the talent to go all the way. The last two years have been a complete waste. Instead of going 7-5-3 they went 7-5-9 at Worlds.
I don't think there's any question that Zhulin expected I/K to challenge D/W. I can't think of a single interview from the Russian side that didn't consider D/W pretenders, and apart from speed and some technique, not in the same class as V/M. I used to chalk it up to thinking if they could break the V/M - D/W lockjam, in which a healthy and error-free V/M were always superior to D/W at their best, D/W would sink like the Shibs.
Certain things are good and bad. I/K leaving Zhulin seems to have saved him. Now bombing worlds might save I/K in the long run. In my opinion the best coach for I/K is Zueva. And that might just happen after Sochi.
When I/K was with Zhulin they won junior worlds while placing second to M/K the whole season. I tend to agree that Zhulin wasn't the most devoted coach back then. I/K's track records barring this Worlds are better with M than with Z. I agree that Zhulin is still in love with I/K and will forever regret his past wrongdoings...