Alexander Zhulin: "Humility adorns"

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by quiqie, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    And now they got what they wanted. All hte coach's attention. Ilinyh at least. And where exactly did that put them? Or, right, nowhere. Mission accomplished!
  2. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    The question is, did they stall their progress? At the Europeans they finished second, only 0.11 points below Bobrova-Soloviev (who finished 3rd at worlds) and easily beating Capellinni-Lannote (who finished 4th at worlds). So one can argue that the low results at worlds was one off, because of nerves or any other silly reason. Surely one bad competition doesn't indicate that a couple regressed?
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  3. zotza

    zotza Active Member

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    If it was another team no,not even B/S last year but I/K will be lynched for this. B/S won a medal with not even reaching their marks from Europeans,they completely messed up and still got huge PCS, so that says something.But them leaving Zhulin was a mistake,not coaching wise but PR wise.
    I guess if they survive this it will be for the best,but there so many people that don't want them to survive this. One competition was enough for these people.

    About Zhulin...from me no comment.I respect him as a skater and coach but doing this after these results is heartless. He's a 50 year old man talking about two kids that are practically teenagers.At least he should have shown some human feelings and concentrate on his success.But all he had to say about his couple was that they'd be 4th if the French were ok. I feel for B/S too, if someday they would try to leave him
  4. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    IMO Zhulin still loves I&K. :lol: He talks about them like an ex-lover. He can't stop saying how awful and lazy they are, but he sounds passionate, and the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. ;) As much as he's said he'd never take them back, he knows how good they are and I bet he dreams about choreo for them. I notice he always says how much B&S love to work as opposed to how good they are. He appreciates it, but with the natural talent of I&K he could really realize his vision.

    If I&K could go to a good coach/drill sargent for a couple of years and straighten themselves out, I'd love to see Zhulin choreo for them again someday.

    ETA: I also thought it was a bit harsh to say B&S would've been 4th had P&B skated well. I think it's true, and he says that so they don't get ahead of themselves for next year. Maybe it would be better to say that in private, though.
  5. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Euro silver medal almost winning it. It can't be denied Morozov has been better for I/K than Volkov or "Zhulin"
  6. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Zhulin would have to show I/K he would actually be a coach to them.
  7. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I think he has changed. Again, using the romance analogy, it's like I&K were his first marriage when he cheated with side projects, but now he is totally faithful to the next wife, B&S. I haven't heard about him doing anything else. I don't think Averbukh did a show this season. Surely Zhulin won't participate in anything until after the Olympics, then he might slack off a bit. He seems completely devoted to B&S right now.

    Like I posted earlier, I wish this version of Zhulin worked with I&K. I know I&K share a lot of the blame, but not all of it. P&B did better under Zhulin because they were more mature. As a junior team transitioning to senior, I&K needed the full and undivided attention of their primary coach. Even teaching discipline is part of that. Unfortunately, they did not learn anything from that whole debacle. They should taken the attitude that we'll show everyone, and work 1000x harder with Morozov to show that Zhulin was wrong.
  8. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    If Zhulin was such an absentee coach, why does it appear that P&B have only positive things to say about him? P&B only left because Zhulin was only allowed to coach Russian skaters, right? It's not like P&B aren't afraid of speaking what they believe to be the truth.
  9. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    What were you two reading? He said they MIGHT have been fourth, not that they necessarily would have been fourth.
  10. elif

    elif Active Member

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    At Euro 2011 -Zhulin's coaching- they were 4th place behind P&B (injured), B&S (gold medalist) and Kerrs (retired). So I don't think its big achievement for Morozov.

    Piseev thinks that too.
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?87476-From-Russia-With-Love-Spring-into-Summer-2013&p=3877949&viewfull=1#post3877949
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Isn't it possible being different teams at different points in their careers, that P&B and I&K had different needs, which were fulfilled for one but not the other? The reason I tend to believe I&K is because Nikita was very specific at the time that he had to look things up for himself in the rulebook or watch on youtube. If he had just said "Zhulin ignored us!" it would be easier to write off. Perhaps P&B didn't need to look things up because they already knew more than I&K, or they did not mind, and even enjoyed, doing their own research. I know they like to be more active in their own choreography. Whatever work Volkov did with I&K apparently did not leave them fully understanding what they were doing, and if they needed that, the coach should have made sure that's what they got.

    IMO, it's totally possible for it to be the case that both the ideas that Zhulin didn't spend enough time with them and that they were lazy about training are true.

    Not a big difference, IMO. The point is he's leaving a door open for a healthy P&B to pass them, which I think would be better left to a private discussion with his pupils.
  12. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    That's an interesting perspective I did not consider, but didn't P&B go to Zhulin because they found that Zazoui was not giving them her fullest attention? Zazoui was instead more focused on Delobel/Schoenfelder, who was the French #1.
  13. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Could be that was more code for DelSchoes getting the politik of being coaches top team. I can't say I'm too familiar with P&B's experience with Zazoui, though, so I can't comment further.
  14. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    He is right on the money on Virtue & Moir too.
  15. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Because usually you speak nicely about your past coaches. There are a few exceptions, but most skaters have only good things to say about their previous coaches, and yet they left them...
  16. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't that their first senior season? I wonder how other couples place in their first senior season; surely 4th at the Europeans is not that bad!
  17. Fancypancy

    Fancypancy Member

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    Zhulin looks like Uncle Frester in that K/C. He did not age well :((
  18. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I felt P/B were quite sincerer when they repeatedly told the press that they liked everything about Zhulin as a coach and they would never left him if it was up to them. They didn't have to make such strong statements if it wasn't true, what they said went beyond standard PC comments after break-ups.

    Also, I/K didn't only complained about Zhulin not being there for them. One of the complaints that Nikita voiced that surprised me was that Zhulin did not allow Tarasova to work closely with them. He said TAT really wanted to be involved in their preparation, but Zhulin kept her at distance, but now after they left him she will be able to work with them. This made me suspicious that I/K could have been brainwashed, combined with how different P/B comments about him sounded.
  19. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    It was reported in Russian articles posted here that P/B had to leave Zhulin because of the Russian federation's policy of not giving ice time to foreign skaters and not allowing Russian coaches to work with them during the preparations for the Olympics. Morozov was the only coach who was allowed to keep a few foreign students.

    When they left, they told the press they were looking for a coach who would have Zhulin's technique and who would continue Zhulin's work. I don't think you can pay a bigger compliment to a coach.

    Apparently Zhulin brought in Maxim Staviyski to work with both I/K and P/B. What a terrific opportunity for them! It was really visible in Nikita's techniue actually. He started swinging from deep edge to deep edge with that beautiful knee action that only Maxim Staviyski had in his generation. Glad to read in the interview that TAHbKA translated, that Staviyski is now working with Bobrova/Soloviev as well. :)

    I believe this was a time at which TAT, as the consultant for the Russian team, was working at all camps and meddling in helping with everything from program choices to costumes. It wouldn't be surprising if Zhulin tried to keep her at arm's length because for I/K he was going for classy programs, pure presentation and understated costumes. TAT's philistine taste, for bombastic choreography and batsh*t crazy costume choices may not have suited his plans for I/K.

    Sorry, I know she is a great coach. :shuffle:
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  20. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    Absolutely, she should not have been anywhere near them. Unfortunately, she has enough power to interfere from the outside and I suspect she was one of the people behind that coaching change :(
  21. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Shame it was their only really good competition this season. :p
  22. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Yeah shame. It will be seen if that was enough for them to either take all the federations advice and go in a different direction with someone else or stay on the same path. Or if that comment was true that morozov said about bronze or bust and no I/k anymore.
  23. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    If that was a true comment then he's a shittier boyfriend than I initially imagined.
  24. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    He said he'll stop working with I/K if they won't be "fighting for top three", not if they won't medal. He chose his words carefully and I took his comment as directed towards the federation to give I/K more political support than before.
  25. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    If that's the standard does euros mean he got what he wanted but because I/k bombed worlds by mistakes and therefore doesn't count toward fighting for top 3? Because they werent clean and couldn't be top 3.
  26. quiqie

    quiqie Well-Known Member

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    Example: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...8033.111358.218898334819422&type=1&permPage=1 :lol:
  27. elif

    elif Active Member

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    Of course. They didn't get a medal but that was very good result. I just mean if you talking about Euro results, Morozov not better than Zhulin.
  28. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Oh, come on, stop being bitchy. Surely second place at both GP events were also good results? Or do you think they should have won it? It is a bit optimistic to expect them to beat V-M in one GP event and D-W in the other one!
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  29. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I don't know honestly, but I don't think that interview means much at all. As I said, in my opinion it was a signal to the Russian fed to start supporting I/K as their number one team or he won't be working with them. I/K did get the support, so I think that's all that mattered. Nikita said in one of post-worlds interviews that they'll stay with Morozov as their coach for next season. I do think that the Fed will be monitoring their work a lot closer this off-season though. No more skipping test skates, and I think they will send someone to monitor how the new programs are developing. I am afraid Nikolai won't be able to hide from Tarasova this time until the start of the season.
  30. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    Why would Morozov hide from Tarasova anyway? He was her assistant and they both have the same kitsch taste.
  31. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    True :) But she was quite critical of the programs he made for his students during her commentary at Russian Nationals, it looks like she is unhappy with him these days.
  32. SLIVER

    SLIVER New Member

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    I find it staggering that a few are blasting Zhulin for his comments, he is totally entitled to his opinion and people who think he is wrong for voicing it are deluded.

    ''He should move on'' oh please, I/K are one of the most talked about team of the last 5 or 6 years, everyone will always have an opinion onthem. I heard more chat about Ghost in London than D/W v V/M. I have zero doubt with Zhulin, I/K would not be skating the utter RUBBISH that was the Ghost freedance. A laughable piece of shit that only skaters with their talent could make look semi decent. Zero transitions, mediocre lifts, full blown forward crossovers (!!) before the final diag step seq, bad use of the ice surface, the whole thing was a complete joke.
    I wont even start on the 'we are so cool practice costumes' and the hideous facial fake expressions.

    Should I start on their 'polka'? I better not, save to say it wasnt a Polka, Nikolai!

    I still believe I/K potentially have the best skating skill in the world (above V/M) and to see them skating the way they are with Morozov is just painful. He cannot choreograph a free dance under these new rules. He has his own warped idea about the vision of a free dance and I honestly think he believed 'Ghost' was going to be their breakthrough signature and a masterpiece. Pass the bucket.

    I hate it when posters, who dont know the skaters personally, comment as if they are there with them everyday. Zhulin says they have an attitude problem and I have no reason no to believe him. The fact that Morozov is sleeping with a teenager, who is his pupil (who skates with her ex boyf) is just vile.

    Everyone believed I/K would be challenging for a medal by Sotchi, even a gold at home, now a bronze seems unlikely. Ive heard they are going to try and pull them away from Morozov now
    but even if they do, its too late for Sotchi. I am not blaming all their troubles on Morozov, maybe they are incapable of their crazy potential, it has happened before, many times.
    Morozov himself needs to rethink hard because Leonova, Takahashi, I/K sucked and sucked hard. Takahashi's program were not 1% of what they were the last few years and even if Camerlengo did the free, by time Morozov pissed all over it, it was dead by February.

    Also if Morozov had half a brain he would have left Takahashi's short alone (it was just fine) and concentrated on working on the quad in the last 6 weeks, rather than make him spend all the time rehearsing a new, very generic empty short, with no quads in sight. I digress....

    Back to I/K, one last point, even if Volkov was doing all the work, well Don Quixote was a damn lot better than Ave Maria or Ghost!
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  33. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I/K's Don Quixote was a complete disaster. From Elenas costumes which interfered with basic moves from actually placing 4th in the free dance at Russian natiOnals to where not only r/t was better then them but a team with only one ice dancer k/a!! Who knows where I/k would be now with zhulin. They basically not only Fell behind k/a in Russia but junior teams they beat just months before. Their whole careers were collapsing and a change was totally necessary. Are they just too stupid to not have realized falling behind s/s and k/a at Russian nationals was actually fine and no big deal and now would be world bronze medalists?? LOL!! Like zhulin was doing good or something. At leas with morozov they have been doing so much better and were a solid second place and weren't losing to non-ice Dancer teams. But then it all goes back to I/k hate working and training. Well there is a solution to that I'd it's true!! No gps from Russia. The Russian fed just stops all support! It happened to sokolova!! Jus dropped totally!
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  34. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    Don Quixote was a beautiful classical program, challenging for a young team because it needed a lot of precision and every line had to be perfect. Young teams need challenges in order to make progress. I loved the costume - an elegant and understated tutu made for her at the costume workshop of the Bolshoi Theatre.

    I'm sure you are aware that you are tweaking the facts in order to fit your theory ;) but I wish to make some corrections for the benefit of those who don't follow I/K as rabidly as you and me.

    Before the 2011 Russian Nationals at which I/K placed 4th in the free dance (3rd overall) Elena had injured her foot due to a boot problem and they were unable to train for the Nationals. They did well to earn a place for the Euros, considering it was only their first senior year.

    The couple that you call "a team with only one ice dancer" included the European Champion and World bronze medalist Jana Khokhlova. So it was I/K, a junior-aged team in their first senior year against the European Champion and one of Tatiana Tarasova's personal favorites. :TT1: :blocjudge

    Riazanova/Tkachenko who beat I/K at the Nationals were really good that season. I saw them live at TEB where they finished 2nd and their speed and depth of edges were impressive. Don't know why you disparage them as "junior skaters" as they are quite older than Elena and Nikita. Especially Ilia, even if we believe his ISU bio, he is 5 years older, which makes them 19 and 24 at the time, an enormous difference for male skaters. There was no shame in their losing to R/T at the nationals considering, but anyway I/K beat R/T at the Euros.

    Please, in what sense are they doing "so much better"? :confused:

    Two crucial years have passed. This year they haven't overtaken ANY of the teams that they lost to in 2011 at the Euros or Worlds. On the contrary they have fallen behind Capellini/Lanotte and the new team of Chock/Bates. They are not doing AT ALL better! :scream:



    SLIVER, thank you for your post. I totally agree.

    Free Takahashi and I/K! :mitchell:
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  35. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I know khokhlova was a euro champ and world medalist. She was the ice dancer on the team! So she and andreev beat I/k. I didnt remember illinykh having an injury.

    When I referred to a junior team I meant s/s at worlds after but also the gp events.

    Last year at worlds it was d/w v/m p/b w/p and I/k! So that was with morosov. They were 5th. So 2013 worlds was a horrible event for them and they were getting low levels so morosov is part of great success for I/k and big failures at worlds 2013 but not before. It was almost an unbroken rise from the time they switched to morosov until 2013 worlds.

    I mean it would be nice For them if they got something other than unrelenting criticism from all quarters. All their recent success before 2013 worlds means nothing because they are coached by morosov and now they bombed at a worlds with him so now it will be horrible programs and nothing but failure and no success.


    Elena's costume in 2010-2011 turned out to be totally wrong and didn't matter that it was authentic bolshoi it was stupid for ice dance!
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  36. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    I agree with SLIVER too. Morozov has clearly lost his coaching mojo this season (choreography mojo has been gone a long time ago already).

    Also, free Amodio as well!
  37. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree with Sliver on all points.

    This is the saddest thing about this. I/K's potential is just incredible and both of their programs in the year they won Junior Worlds are iconic. Their SS are just sublime. They are so smooth and light over the ice and have so much flow. So to see a team who could potentially challenge for Olympic gold, if all the stars aligned, keep falling down the rankings is very very sad.

    (Same with Takahashi getting a totally empty generic SP)
  38. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    Everyone in this thread seems to wish I/K well. People are only discussing what is not working for them. There's no need for you to get so defensive. If a team so insanely talented that they should be contending for gold in Sochi now looks totally out of contention for any medal - they are not even the Russian number ones - of course people realise something is not working.

    As for the programs, the free dance is a humongous atrocity! At the Euros they skated it well and still I thought so. A couple should be helped by their program and not look good despite their program.

    It's a miracle that Morozov didn't split this couple. A teenage team who were boyfriend-girlfriend were left under Morozov's care, they were even sent to the USA with him when Elena was just 17, without her family, and what did he do? :mad: Thank goodness Nikita didn't leave for another partner, because the situation must have been unbearable for him.

    Not having a moral compass doesn't necessarily mean being a bad coach, but in this case the line that he crossed was dangerous for I/K, both personally and professionally.
  39. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    You clearly have no taste if that's what you think.
  40. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Somehow I find myself agreeing with everyone here. :lol:

    I loved Don Quixote. Their musicality was great, and they skated with more precision then, and I think, much better posture. casey I think the tutu was a good idea, actually, because I&K appear to be skating very far apart these last two season with Morozov, so rather than the tutu causing problems IMO it could very well be that Zhulin was trying to hide the problem with the tutu. Ave Maria and Ghost simply can't compare with Schindler's List or Don Quixote.

    There was a lot of disappointment that season too, and yes, many disastrous outings (and I do think losing to K&A in the FD was a very big deal, just look at their results from their few internationals; not a top team at all). The worst thing was the lifts. Ballet is so rife with inspiration for beautiful lifts, but theirs were ugly, recycled, and even then not well-executed. Morozov has done a slightly better job finding them less acrobatic lifts that work for them. So he is not totally useless. :lol:

    In some ways DQ hurts me more than Ghost because it was such a gorgeous concept with so much potential and never quite got there. Ghost is a piece of crap, but was at least skated to perfection at Euros. :lol:

    I don't think it's fair to say "I&K beat this team under Zhulin or that team under Morozov." They can "pass" S&S, C&L, etc with one good performance, so I'm not worried there. The teams they have not beaten overall ever IIRC are V&M, D&W, B&S (except for 2012 Worlds where B&S fell), W&P, P&B, and C&B (but that's really more cause they haven't competed against them too many times). That is a damn shame, because they have more natural talent than almost all of those teams.

    What they need to learn is the discipline. They need to be put with a coach that will pay them so much attention that they want to run away. :lol: They don't seem to be the types to work independently. They need a nun with a stick. :p