Alexander Abt will compete for Belarus

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Jenya, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Well look at Sasha in 1991 and two / three years later. He was very tiny in 1991 and obviously had really heavy growth spurts afterwards - just look what lesser sprints did to Gachinski’s jumps and when Plushenko was not able to land a quad at 2000 Worlds Mishin also cited a growth spurt as making his jumps unstable.

    Add to that a coaching change starting to take effect and doing military service – even if you probably have better conditions in military when you are an athlete, it still adds a disadvantage compared to other athletes. I think it was Alexander Uspenski who once in an Interview quite openly admitted that he went to university for the main reason that students don’t have to do military service in Russia. That gives you an impression that going to military is not really helpful to boost one’s skating career. :(

    Sasha didn’t compete at 1995/96 Nationals, as he had to sit them out due to knee injury. And the next year he placed 7th and not 18th. But yes – all the others, Urmanov, Yagudin, Plushenko placed (deservedly) above him for the one reason that he just had been on the ice for a couple of weeks after a really bad injury and entered that competition knowing that he was unable to perform a 3 Axel yet. That’s what I meant with bad timing – it gave the other guys a chance to overtake him in the rankings at Russian Nats. And the next year it was pretty obvious that Russian Fed supported other the youngsters far more than Abt. :(

    I apparently missed that placement at Russian Nats were decided based on GP placements that year, because I referred to robbery at Russian Nats that year and not during the GP.

    1. because the lower placement at RN occasionally didn’t allow him to skate at major international competitions
    2. because he skated better a number of times at international competitions and was still placed behind his worse skating teammates (EC 2002, SLC SP, WC 2000 QR ….).
    Come on, it’s not like that matters only in Russia if you are no. 1, 2 or 3 in your team or if a skater has support by his own fed when competing internationally.:rolleyes:
     
  2. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    And you on the other hand did not get that focus point of discussion was on Sasha’s eligible career and that video was taken after he turned pro a couple of years ago on a private flight (so not on the way to competition or something). And yes – that was just incredibly stupid. But he was certainly not the only Russian skater who behaved icredibly stupid – as it was mentioned here, other skaters of that generation were quite famous for liking to drink and party. Let me list a few incidents:

    * a skater harassing people on street when skating in a competition abroad that he was actually suspended from competition for a while
    * a skater (who was attached to another skater that time) touching the breast of one fan being around at that party.
    * a skater driving his car drunk
    * a skater driving his car drunk severely injuring other people
    * a skater almost setting his room in fire after :nopryde:

    That’s all stories who I either got from reliable first hand witnesses (= not rumours) or which were even in the media, though I will not link any information here. Those who know who is meant know anyways and I think there is no reason to make personal mistakes of these guys even more public than they already became anyways.
    Interestingly, when skaters involved in the listed incidents are discussed, it’s not like any time someone is pointing finger saying “did that”, while each time Abt’s career is discussed this “don’t drink & fly” video is always linked. :rolleyes:


    “Rumours circulated on some injuries” – now that’s what I call precise evidence. :duh: But still you of course know which one! Honestly it’s not like crashing the board or cutting yourself or even worse someone else with the own blade is the classical accident one can sustain only when being drunk (at least I have not heard that of e.g. Kaetlyn Weaver to name a recent example or Yagudin who managed twice to get injured when crashing the boards with his head/hand). It happens to skaters to crash boards occasionally, some get injured (= bad luck), some not (luck). You know, spreading such theories without evidence is close to reputational damage. :rolleyes: + :mad:

    Don’t you think if this accident happened after let’s say Sasha had drunk a bottle of Vodka before going on the ice it had not been reported by more reliable sources than "rumours circulated", in particular if you consider that Arutunian was pretty unpopular with his own Fed? Have you ever thought that rumours might be spread around by purpose? :confused:
     
  3. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    It now worked on my computer and translating word by word he says “I returned to sport, I decided to compete in pairs with the pretty girl Dasha and will compete for Belarus.” But as TAHbKA I’m sure he is kidding! :lol:

    (*sigh of relief* from my side!)

    Crazy that media reported it in a way one might believe that this was for real! Plushy would already have sued them. :p
     
  4. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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  5. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Feel free to post whatever you want, it's certainly not like I was playing board police and trying to restrict you in that! :lol: However, others are also entitled to refer to your posts and add facts if they consider that they might be misleading otherwise, like I did when mentioning that the incident you referred to just happened a couple of years ago and not during eligible years. I actually referred to a possible problem with :rockstar: & :nopryde: in one of my previous posts referring to Sasha’s pro career (though more subtle without feeling the need to post that embarrassing video).
    But again, it’s not like other Russian skaters never :rockstar: and did stupid things when being :nopryde:.

    Drinking unfortunately is a big problem in Russia and deeply inherited in Russian Culture (my own Russian coach proposed Vodka as support, when I was really nervous before a skating test – can’t imagine such a proposal ever coming from an Austrian coach). It’s much easier to get into troubles with that kind of background, but unfortunately also much harder to get out of them. :(
     
  6. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    There can be multiple causes for why someone didn't live up to their potential. It's not like everyone who is consistent is :saint: and everyone who is inconsistent is :rockstar:

    I'm sure Abt's smoking and drinking contributed along with other things. I don't see many people saying he wuzrobbed in every event of his career. Mainly people focus on a couple of events in 2002 where they think he was robbed, and that was the season he apparently hunkered down and really trained.

    I think the real problem is that the skater's history always follows them on the ice. If he trained well and skated well enough to beat Yagudin in a particular competition, then he should have beaten him regardless of poor training habits of the past, but the judges consider things like reputation in the marks. Why would they give Abt a European title instead of the Olympic gold medal hopeful, Yagudin, when they know that Abt is probably going to screw up in the next competition? I haven't even watched 2002 Euros in a while. I remember thinking Abt was better, but probably to beat a skater with a reputation like Yagudin's he had to skate twice as well, not just a little better.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Abt certainly had admirable qualities. His edges were just to die for, and nobody had the run of blade like him. I just wish he had better routines and that he fixed his carriage and posture. There was always something off about it to me.
     
  8. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    How true. And this level of talent and skill is what makes the debate about Sasha so passionate. So much talent and in the end, for whatever the reasons, not anywhere near a realization of his potential. There were glimpses and moments of Sasha Abt at his best and they were just inspiring and gorgeous (and I'm not talking about his face, I'm talking about his skating) - I think we all wish we could have seen him take his exceptional talent and really work career magic with it. A frustrating story to watch and for him I imagine a frustrating story to live. I hope, and I know I'm not alone, that all is well with him these days.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
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  9. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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  10. joeperryfan

    joeperryfan Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that the fact that it was an Olympic year played a big part in the outcome of that competition, the Oly gold medal was to be discussed between Yagudin and Plushenko and the judges weren't willing to throw a third russian in the mix, maybe if Abt wasn't russian it would have been different... IIRC at the time the judges justified the decision with Alexei having a more difficult program, I'm not entirely sure if that was it but I recall reading some justification.
     
  11. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    About the 95 RN, that makes sense. If he's 18th, there must be something insanely wrong. Thanks for the clarification. Growth spurt, military service, hope that's the real reason. But those problems other skaters could have experienced too. The military service, I don't know what it is like and why once again only Abt had the problem. As far as I know very few Russian elite athletes(I mean athletes, not just skaters) managed to finish the higher education and compete at the same time during 90s and early 2000s, lots of skaters did not even finish their 10 years general education, not to mention the university. I've read interviews from many Russian skaters said it's too hard to train and study at the same time. The only Russian skater I can think of who competed at the highest level with an excellent Academic result is Yagudin. So I guess the military problem is not so exclusive?



    Come on, you know for Russians, RN is not the only decisive event for international competitions, right? Besides by the time when he competed with Yagudin and Plushenko, that two guys did so good that Russian team could always get 3 spots, and Abt was always the one got that 3rd spot. Actually he lost more chances for big competitions when he competed against Urmanov and Kulik, that's before he got that nasty injury.

    As for EC 2002, I am sure the amount of people thinking that Abt's robbed or Yagudin deserved to win would be pretty close. Yagudin won 5:4, it's a close competition anyway. Yagudin skated a more difficult program, other than the jumping mistakes, he skated brilliantly and got a lot of standing ovations from the audience.
    SLC SP, no comment, WC 2000 QR, dunno what happened.
     
  12. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    I heard that he's the kind of person always needed some time to fool around with friends. It's just about if he let those things affect his career. If he could compete and study in school at the same time, and both got excellent results, and still found some time to have fun, then he's the true genius. Whether he liked to party with women or men, that's his personal life, none of anyone's business.
     
  13. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    You are so malicius. First of all Plushy doesn't drink and he has never been such a problem, unlike another famous Russian skater whose name I won't tell you. ;)Second, he sued twice journalist, despite the yellow press constantly lying on them. For example they wrote, Yana wasn't pregnant, surrogate mother gave birth his son!!!:lol: and so on...never ending stupid lies... He and his wife are too big stars, the yellow press wants to sell the newspapers.
    first time: journalists claimed more than once that his marriage with Yana a PR trick. Constantly wrote this. That's a lie.
    Second, right now. This is also a lie. Plushy had surgery in Israel.
    Two parts of his latest interview:

    P:" He said such things and it made me angry. I had a rough career in my sport life. My last operation, the 13th one, was the most difficult. It lasted for 3 hours and a half, they removed my intervertebral disc, put a polymer one and inserted 4 screws there. So, when a man tells to the whole country that it was all a PR lie, then of course I got mad. In fact I would have accepted his apology and nothing afterwards would have taken place if he had called me and apologized like a Man is supposed to do. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. Moreover, when someone asked him why he hadn't apologized, he said "Why should I if Plushenko didn't call me?" Such attitude is just plain rude. I was working hard for my entire life to make my name and earn the trust of people. I didn't do all this to be humiliated by some journalist who simply called me a PR liar."

    P: "Well, I think if you are a sport journalist, you should comment sport precisely and nothing else. No need to comment my personal life, my wife, my kids, my so-called "show business" or whatever. I am not doing any show business. Yes, I have a lot of friends in that field. Probably some people are too concerned about the fact that I have so many friends in show business, in politics, in the theatre and movie worlds. I think journalists should have a more professional approach to their work. If they comment figure skating, so please study this sport, like the difference between lutz and flip jumps. That is what they should talk about: technical skills, programs of skaters, their costumes, choreography, so on. Journalists have to study figure skating before being assigned to comment this sport."

    I' m truly believe he is right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  14. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    LOL! Because you have informations about Yagudin, only. Plushenko has two excellent "Academic" results, (if I undertsand you ) ;)

    Plushenko has graduated from the Lesgaft National State University of Physical Education, Sport and Health (the coach department ) and as well the Saint Petersburg State University of Engineering and Economics, Tourism courses or something like this. (His first wife's father was owner of many hotels)

    Yagudin has graduated from the Lesgaft University too (I don't know what department)

    Otherwise what does that mean "Academic reasult"? University degree?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  15. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    No, not only. I recall a couple of years ago there were a few skaters who suddenly were drafted. I can't recall who it was, certainly young single skaters, think it was Lutai and Dobrin, but could be completely wrong.
    Kulik's army service problems (or rather, his ignoring the army) made him stay away from Russia till he was 30 or something.

    Afaik (I could be a bit wrong here) every man in Russia has to either serve in the army or get accepted to a university. Most of them make it to the uni, but, apparently, not all. As for the education - sometimes some skaters post on the figure skating boards. They can't spell (in Russian!) to save their lives! I don't remember Abt ever posting in any Russian forum, but I was in ave realizing Averbukh's spelling skills (have to admit it seems to have changed and the guy either learned to spell or to use a speller).
    Yagudin mentioned in his interviews time after time his mother insisted he went to a school and was a good pupil, the sport was somehow less important. I assume it would work for someone like Yagudin, who comes from St. P and his mother doesn't have to work as a cleaner to support him. I guess with a skater who comes from the middle of nowhere and their parents have to work as cleaner to support their skating the academic achievements would be less important.
    All that said am quite impressed with Trankov, who seem to be able to spell just fine in Russian, is comprehensible in English, is not studying physical education like all the Russian skaters do and all that from a guy who came from nowhere and was recycling bottles for money when he was 16.
     
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  16. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy Well-Known Member

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    About Euros 2002, IIRC it was a 6-3 split in the judging panel. No standing ovation at all for Yags (I was there). Being a crazy über for both skater, (not in any way healthy lol, I can be seen in the stands on tv crying and falling apart with joy and disbelief after Sasha's FS :D:D), I can certainly say Sasha deserved the victory that night. Both had good QR and good SP, I loved the Armenian porgram to death, it was SO good, but Yagudin was on fire in the short, his Winter was even better than in SLC, he was more precise to the music. I had no problem with him winning the short, though both skated clean, with the same jump content. Yags was pure magic. In the free, Yags was not his usual self. Sasha simply skated better. He was close to clean, (minor things on landings and so) with so much flow and quality edges, great spins and total it-factor. The whole package really worked. Yagudin lacked energy. He made mistakes on his 3l (doubled?), then changed the program to do it again, same mistake. It took a lot away from the choreo. I seem to recall he also made mistake on the second quad, but I have to go back and rewatch that. Anyway, as a whole, the performance didn't work, it was a struggle, though ok, but not special. Not saying Sasha's Rach was perfect, he skated a bit back and forth, but MITIM was not in normal Yags standard that night. But, I can see the judges didn't want him to loose right before the Olympics, and I'm greatful for that. I'd rather want Olys gold for Yagudin, then Euros gold for Sasha, if I had to choose.
     
  17. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    You are not quite right. Sasha’s troubles with injuries started in 1995, he was actually nominated to compete at Euros in 1995, but couldn`t due – I don’t dare to say – but injury. He had a close race with Kulik from 1994 to 1995, with once Sasha being ahead of Kulik and then it was the other way round (e.g. at RN in 94). Regarding Urmanov it’s pretty harsh to expect a just 17 year old teenager to beat a mature Olympic Champion. ;)

    However, in 93/94 when Sasha competed first time at RN he was not beaten by Ilia Kulik but by Urmanov, Tataurov and Pashkevitch, all much older and mature skaters. However as far as I know his 4th place was questionable, it was mentioned that zzz-Tataurov should not have placed above him. :(

    Here is a video of young Sasha Russian Natinals (skating his SP at the Gala at RN 1994/95): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJyRoq4xjcA
     
  18. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    lala – apparently you didn’t understand the meaning of the :p icon in my post. :lol:

    If Plushenko sues the press for writing things not true that harm him, it’s his good right to do so. You might argue that it was not particularly smart of Sasha kidding that way in front of journalists, but then it’s not ok from press make that kind of headline. I don’t think that this kind of press was helpful for Sasha’s coaching career. – Just think how it might have been pursued by the management of Aviator, his students and their parents? Simply that he might have decided to quit coaching in Brooklyn as he made an irrational decision to start pairs skating. :eek:

    That was my hint – that they’d be careful, cause others might have taken action against such coverage and rightly so. Maybe not immediate law suit, but first a simple call to put things in a way that they are understood right. ;)

    Anyways, when checking if this pairs-rumour was right, I discovered that Sasha is getting quite a lot of good media coverage for his coaching activities right now. As Iceman mentioned he is coaching at Aviator / Brooklyn, but recently he has also been giving masterclasses all across Russia (Moscow (Sokolniki), Murmansk, Severomorsk, Kaluga, Tula) and in Minsk. Here are some local media reports with video clips:

    http://nikatv.ru/index.php/sport/10109-2013-04-04-10-28-48.html
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdyRrEYtqEw&feature=player_embedded

    And here is a short interview – will translate soon:
    http://news.21.by/other-news/2013/02/26/722714.html

    I'm excited that he gets some media attention as a coach – that’s a big step forward! :)
     
  19. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Oh I understand. I remembered, when Sacha was actor in a Russian Tv-series. I watched some parts of them on Youtube. I didn't know, that he is working as a coach now. And I agree with you, this story like this, isn't too good for him, if he wants to be a good and recognized coach. But I really want to him the best!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  20. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    He is not really good looking, but his skating was lovely. I think you are weird.
     
  21. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I think, he is good looking and his skating was lovely. ;)
     
  22. N_Halifax

    N_Halifax Active Member

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    Abt was not the first skater to enjoy a nice cocktail or a smoke, nor will he be the last. That whole airplane fiasco was a bit publicly embarassing, but you know what? I'd LOVE to see him come back. He was fabulous. If we're going to humor some of these other "comebacks", Abt could do it just as much as anyone else to be frank.
     
  23. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Here is a translation of the short interview I linked earlier on:

    The participant in the reality ice show “Ice age”, hero of the TV-Serie “hot ice” and medalist at European Figure skating championships Alexander Abt made a one day visit to Minsk. The award-winning athlete, who took up coaching not such a long time ago held a master class for students of junior sports school of figure skating. At first Alexander held a full teaching unit for a group of older students, then with the youngest ones. The kids listened attentively his explanations and watched, how the master executed the elements. Of course the future stars didn’t succeed in doing them immediately. Abt took some skaters aside to correct the execution. The individual work turned out to be fruitful. The kids were smiling and the guest emotionally proposed to acquire the next element. In between Alexander Abt talked to the coaches which helped him at the rink. After the lecture the kids approached the master requesting autographs and photographs. Some students instead of a memo pad even handed over their skates for the holy writing. And not only kids. The parents as well queued to receive and autograph or pose next to the skater. …

    “I gave the similar Masterclasses in Murmansk, Severomork, Tula, Nizhnij Novgorod, Moscow” told the guest. “The classes were sufficient and I hope useful. Of course I taught the older ones more difficult elements and the young ones the basics. I really liked kids: they were diligent and motivated.”

    But still you currently live with your family in the U.S.

    “Currently all over the World there are activities to promote a healthy life style and to support the upcoming Olympic Games in Sochi in 2014. Why not coming here and give some energy to young starlets? Such actions stimulate them to grow and to win. If proposed again – I will certainly agree.”

    Do you train skaters in Brooklyn?

    “My group consists of different ages – little kids, students, adults. I also give lessons to Hockeyplayers. In fact my son is engaged in this sport.”

    According to the words of the deputy director of the junior sports school of figure skating they reached preliminary agreement with the managers of Alexander (probably management of Aviator?) to conduct a training camp for our athletes in the U.S. It will now be discussed with the parents.


    In one of the video clips it is mentioned that actually 20 masterclasses are planned (e.g. in Rostov at Don, Chabaraovsk, etc.). Looks like Sasha is really busy at the moment. :)
     
  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    You obviously chose to ignore the context of my post. As to you thinking I'm weird, well...that's quite something from a poster who keeps alluding to Margaret Thatcher when referring to herself. :D
     
  25. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    :respec:
     
  26. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    So he was teaching in Minsk, not looking for a pair!
     
  27. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    A 6-3 split? It's even better then. ;)
    No matter how certain you are, you could be wrong. And no matter how much you wanted Abt to win, that's just your opinion which is totally fine.

    Here is Yagudin's 2002 EC lp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4j6spdYkbc

    Except for the jumps, he skated with great speed and energy output, even better than his OLG performance. His OLG performance was more controlled, a little bit tense to me.

    At the end, Terry Gannon:"A standing ovation here, but it wasn't the type of performance for Yagudin...."
    :lol: at Dick Button couldn't wait to point out:"If you notice, it's only part of the audience that standing, the rest of them remain seated...."
     
  28. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    Plushenko went to the military service too, he's no different from most of the famous Russian Athletes. While athletes go back to school to get some kind of training later on, that's also quite common, He's not that exceptional. The discussion in my post was mainly about military service.


    Don't know how wrong I am, I just posted the results, and you explained the reasons. But doesn't matter, no doubt about his talent, not at all. It's just about grabbing the chance at the right time. Kulik(17) did beat Tataurov right? And then beat Urmanov at the 95 EC, made a big name for himself.
     
  29. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Kulik beat Tataurov at an event Sasha was not able to do so. Now what does this prove? Kulik skated better and got proper marks for that. Sasha the year prior to that didn’t. Actually grabbing a chance needs opportunity to do so (= a supporting federation, fair judges, good health, good practice) conditions). The way you post results here makes it look as if Sasha didn`t grab a chance most times due to lack of ability or due to simply letting it go, which made me post the reasons according to facts in those cases when not grabbing/having chances was not (only) attributable to Sasha himself. :)

    It’s not if I’m saying Sasha would have won it all and surely beaten the other Russian men nor that he’d developed in the most consistent skater. But his career could have been more successful without all the extrinsic factors hampering his success and he might have made competition a lot harder for the other guys, who didn`t have to overcome that amount of difficulties. To which extent we unfortunately never know. :(

    Like e.g. we will never know if Alexej would have been able to win more world titles if not for that congenital hip problem. Still a lot of people speculate upon reasonable grounds that he might have won a 2nd Olympic medal or a 5th or 6th World title without arguing he didn’t grab his chance in Nagano or at 2001 Worlds. :rolleyes:
     
  30. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Sasha got a standing ovation as well and that with skating after Yagudin (from the whole audience as far as I can judge from that video linked and some even started to stand up before he ended the final spin!). I link his performance again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdgAIamDJgg

    Listen the audience in the end when the marks come up – they are booing the judges big time. Looks like it’s not only the opinion of small fairy, or other people, who like Abt's skating, that he performed better than Yagudin that night. :rolleyes:

    When skated at its best I personally liked Alexej’s programme more than Sasha’s. But Alexej’s performance was just too flawed to make it work and Sasha’s was almost pristine clean. And judging from Alexej’s face after Sasha’s LP, Alexej was also thinking that it was not him who had the best skate of the night. Guess that tells you something! ;)