Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Jenya, Apr 1, 2013.
I think, he is good looking and his skating was lovely.
Abt was not the first skater to enjoy a nice cocktail or a smoke, nor will he be the last. That whole airplane fiasco was a bit publicly embarassing, but you know what? I'd LOVE to see him come back. He was fabulous. If we're going to humor some of these other "comebacks", Abt could do it just as much as anyone else to be frank.
Here is a translation of the short interview I linked earlier on:
The participant in the reality ice show Ice age, hero of the TV-Serie hot ice and medalist at European Figure skating championships Alexander Abt made a one day visit to Minsk. The award-winning athlete, who took up coaching not such a long time ago held a master class for students of junior sports school of figure skating. At first Alexander held a full teaching unit for a group of older students, then with the youngest ones. The kids listened attentively his explanations and watched, how the master executed the elements. Of course the future stars didnt succeed in doing them immediately. Abt took some skaters aside to correct the execution. The individual work turned out to be fruitful. The kids were smiling and the guest emotionally proposed to acquire the next element. In between Alexander Abt talked to the coaches which helped him at the rink. After the lecture the kids approached the master requesting autographs and photographs. Some students instead of a memo pad even handed over their skates for the holy writing. And not only kids. The parents as well queued to receive and autograph or pose next to the skater.
I gave the similar Masterclasses in Murmansk, Severomork, Tula, Nizhnij Novgorod, Moscow told the guest. The classes were sufficient and I hope useful. Of course I taught the older ones more difficult elements and the young ones the basics. I really liked kids: they were diligent and motivated.
But still you currently live with your family in the U.S.
Currently all over the World there are activities to promote a healthy life style and to support the upcoming Olympic Games in Sochi in 2014. Why not coming here and give some energy to young starlets? Such actions stimulate them to grow and to win. If proposed again I will certainly agree.
Do you train skaters in Brooklyn?
My group consists of different ages little kids, students, adults. I also give lessons to Hockeyplayers. In fact my son is engaged in this sport.
According to the words of the deputy director of the junior sports school of figure skating they reached preliminary agreement with the managers of Alexander (probably management of Aviator?) to conduct a training camp for our athletes in the U.S. It will now be discussed with the parents.
In one of the video clips it is mentioned that actually 20 masterclasses are planned (e.g. in Rostov at Don, Chabaraovsk, etc.). Looks like Sasha is really busy at the moment.
You obviously chose to ignore the context of my post. As to you thinking I'm weird, well...that's quite something from a poster who keeps alluding to Margaret Thatcher when referring to herself.
So he was teaching in Minsk, not looking for a pair!
A 6-3 split? It's even better then.
No matter how certain you are, you could be wrong. And no matter how much you wanted Abt to win, that's just your opinion which is totally fine.
Here is Yagudin's 2002 EC lp
Except for the jumps, he skated with great speed and energy output, even better than his OLG performance. His OLG performance was more controlled, a little bit tense to me.
At the end, Terry Gannon:"A standing ovation here, but it wasn't the type of performance for Yagudin...."
at Dick Button couldn't wait to point out:"If you notice, it's only part of the audience that standing, the rest of them remain seated...."
Plushenko went to the military service too, he's no different from most of the famous Russian Athletes. While athletes go back to school to get some kind of training later on, that's also quite common, He's not that exceptional. The discussion in my post was mainly about military service.
Don't know how wrong I am, I just posted the results, and you explained the reasons. But doesn't matter, no doubt about his talent, not at all. It's just about grabbing the chance at the right time. Kulik(17) did beat Tataurov right? And then beat Urmanov at the 95 EC, made a big name for himself.
Kulik beat Tataurov at an event Sasha was not able to do so. Now what does this prove? Kulik skated better and got proper marks for that. Sasha the year prior to that didnt. Actually grabbing a chance needs opportunity to do so (= a supporting federation, fair judges, good health, good practice) conditions). The way you post results here makes it look as if Sasha didn`t grab a chance most times due to lack of ability or due to simply letting it go, which made me post the reasons according to facts in those cases when not grabbing/having chances was not (only) attributable to Sasha himself.
Its not if Im saying Sasha would have won it all and surely beaten the other Russian men nor that hed developed in the most consistent skater. But his career could have been more successful without all the extrinsic factors hampering his success and he might have made competition a lot harder for the other guys, who didn`t have to overcome that amount of difficulties. To which extent we unfortunately never know.
Like e.g. we will never know if Alexej would have been able to win more world titles if not for that congenital hip problem. Still a lot of people speculate upon reasonable grounds that he might have won a 2nd Olympic medal or a 5th or 6th World title without arguing he didnt grab his chance in Nagano or at 2001 Worlds.
Sasha got a standing ovation as well and that with skating after Yagudin (from the whole audience as far as I can judge from that video linked and some even started to stand up before he ended the final spin!). I link his performance again:
Listen the audience in the end when the marks come up they are booing the judges big time. Looks like its not only the opinion of small fairy, or other people, who like Abt's skating, that he performed better than Yagudin that night.
When skated at its best I personally liked Alexejs programme more than Sashas. But Alexejs performance was just too flawed to make it work and Sashas was almost pristine clean. And judging from Alexejs face after Sashas LP, Alexej was also thinking that it was not him who had the best skate of the night. Guess that tells you something!
Ok, agree or not agree, I am not gonna say anything more about this. If I do, it will make me look like an Abt hater. I just feel he's so thin when he's young, not as strong as Kulik or Yagudin. He almost looked like same age as Yagudin.
My post was mainly a reply to SmallFairy who said Yagudin got no standing ovation at all, at all! That's not true. I know that Abt got a bigger standing ovation that night. Yagudin got standing ovations when he made obvious mistakes, that's also something. Abt double-footed his 3A, that made him look cleaner. But to me, that's an equal big mistake as Yagudin's on his first quad.
That only tells me that better not to judge by those superficial things. How can you be so sure about what he's thinking just judging by his facial expression? I just can't believe it, can't believe. He mentioned that in his interview later, He's actually unhappy about his tech mark, he thought it should be higher, his program and jumping content was obviously more difficult. Let's this greedy bad boy. And judges told him that's because he left out a spin totally. To me, two different groups of judges(EC&GPF), gave him two consecutive wins with slightly more jumping mistakes, that tells me more than anything else. And I think he deserved that kind of wins long before that.
I know it's all subjective, both for audiences and for the judges. Of course, I could be wrong when I say that Sasha was the better skater that night. Of course, no one has to agree with me, that's perfectly ok
However, on that very night, most of the rink agreed with me. I repeat: I was there. I was also in Bratislava the year before, when Yagudin got a standing ovation. THAT was a standing ovation. I can't remember people standing up for Yagudin in Lausanne, but I could be wrong. My point is: a standing ovation is happening when a skater is setting the rink on fire. Sasha did. Yagudin did not that night, even though some people stood up. I've been to enough skating events to know that feeling. Yagudin made several mistakes in Bratislava, still I thought he should have won. In Lausanne, his performance was not like that. But again, my opinion. And of course, no victory is given out judged by the audience response. I just wanted to comment on the "standing ovation"-question...
I'm not gonna write a long and detailed analyze of the two skates here (posting from my phone), but I'm pretty certain that if Sasha had been Plushenko or Kulik or another skater with more "cred", skating the exact same program as Sasha did, he would have beaten Yagudin. Sasha lost because the judges couldn't let him beat Yags. I've seen over the years how the figure skating judging works, so that will always be my opinion on the matter. Everybody else is free to disagree of course
And I again want to repeat also, that I adored both skaters to death, still do, always will!
I don`t consider you as an Abt hater and I don`t think others do. This is a message board, so it's much more fun when people have different opinions.
And actually I partly agree with you on the weight thing - Sasha looked lighter than the other guys (though Plushenko was very slim when he was younger). But as a rule jumps are easier when you have less weight and it`s usually the taller skaters who have to take even more care about their weight. But even when I personally had worries about Sasha looking malnourished at times, it doesn`t say anything about skating qualities. It`s not like extra muscles automatically transform in better skating.
But I won`t argue with you that a topless young Yagudin or Kulik would have certainly looked better than skinny puppy Sasha.
I`ll certainly do + About that look on Alexej`s face – come on! You can’t call that look happy, you don`t have to be an expert in interpretation of facial expression to notice that Alexej looked pretty uncomfortable and embarrassed. But what would you have expected from him in interviews after the competition? Him stating judges should have given the gold to Sasha? No athlete knowing the game will ever do this (just think how much love he`d get from judges in the next competition for such a statement ).
That Alexej was even complaining about the tech mark is just typical Alexej. Like he is still complaining that he`s never been Russian champs where he sometimes really skated badly. This is not evidence that he was the better skater that night, but proof on his competitive nature and also evidence that he knew how to play the game. – Actually I think that such cleverness plus better competition nerves were those things were he was indeed far ahead of Sasha. When Sasha didn`t skate well, he openly admitted it and he never blamed judges or demanded higher marks, even when there was cause to do so. That really honors him as a great sports, but unfortunately I don`t think it is very much helpful for winning the big medals.
Leaving out a spins just is evidence how much Alexej was focusing on reworking his programme. And what Alexej produced in Lausanne is not slightly more jumping mistakes, but quite some more (3 heavy errors, actually a 4th with doing the 2nd quad without combo). That`s actually the reason why judges were not able to hold him up on the tech mark. If it would have been just a “slight” difference, I`m pretty sure judges would have still given the advantage to a three time World Champion. And as SmallFairy indicated – iIt`s not like reputation judging doesn`t exist.
SmallFairy you are a lucky girl that you saw both of them live when skating superb! I think both, Sasha and Alexej produced some mesmerizing performances that will forever stay in our hearts as treasured memories.
Really?!?!??! No way!
I guess you don't know the GPF result right before the EC.
You really dislike him because of this "robbery", don't you? I don't consider that's a compliment but rather an insult. Since when complaining about marks is typical Yagudin? I only know even on some not-so-friendly Russian media he has a name as always blame the mistakes on himself. Getting feedback from the judges was very common during 6.0 period. I am surprised you accuse him for asking the judges. (That's one of the things I like about IJS, you have those protocols to study at any time and know where you got the deductions.) You can see he really did not know that leaving out that spin could cause him the deduction, while the 2lp was not necessary a deduction. Otherwise he wouldn't have done that (he put that 2nd 3lp attempt at the spot of that spin), imagine if he did not ask, he might do that again next time. That's called communication, not complain. About the RNs, he did say he never won the RC and that's true. He also admitted openly that he never took it seriously, for some reason. That's other people's problem if they interpreted it other ways.
And I guess you know that's FP, not SP? Under 6.0 system, you don't count mistakes in a FP like that, right? It's decided mainly by how many elements they finished. If you understand that you would see that's only one 3lp (Yagudin did double) and one spin's difference. Overall Yagudin's much more difficult program outweighed Abt's, to me it's quite reasonable. He's clever? Maybe, on some things. If he's really that smart, he could have been much much more consistent if only he did all his jumps with endless crossovers in between, or with loooong preparations(As Abt's) too.
Abt did not double-foot his 3A. He (if at all) had a very slight touch-down with his free leg. That is definitely a less severe mistake than Yag's step-out plus hand-down on his 1st quad toe attempt.
You really don`t know me. Cause I really like Alexej as a skater was actually crying when he won OG and If you`d ask me to put together a tape with my favourite competitive performances, there`d be more from Alexej on that tape than from Sasha. I think that gives you kind of impression how I rate Alexej as a competitor. Though, however, if I`d could choose whom to watch live in practice, I`d probably end up with Sasha. And as pros I`ve seen both of them live.
But even with liking Alexej`s competitive skating, I don`t like robberies and I think your post is beyond strange. No matter to whom they happen. I feel for the robbed skaters, in particular when they had rare occasions to win big medals. That, however, does not mean that I automatically dislike the skater who won undeservedly. For example I think Alexej should have won the free at EC 2001 in Bratislava and I bet you do so as well now should we start disliking Plushenko because of that? I think this would be rather childish and I hope that your post is not reflecting the Austrian proverb the rogue thinks according to his nature.
Unicorn, we might discuss Euros for ages you will still think Alexej was better that night, I think Sasha. This does not change the fact that the majority in the arena perceived Sasha as winner and thought he was robbed. For me that counts more than judges' marks which quite often don`t reflect actual skating, but skating politics.
Now talking about Russian Nationals the very first TV-interview I saw with Alexej was on Austrian TV after he won in SLC. And guess what it was about? How much easier it was for him to win in the U.S. as he never was Russian Champion because it was so hard for him to win in front of Russian judges. And it`s not if he had not made similar remarks in other interviews. I can tell you what was my reaction afterwards what is going at bloody Russian Nationals? It was right after that interview when I started tapetrading to watch what happened there to Alexej. Well, watching the tapes I must say that I was quite surprised.
Now is this an insult? I don`t think so. First I simply stated facts (= Alexej mentioning he was treated badly in a competition where he didn`t skate well) and it`s actually shows you mindset of a champion. True as a sports I lik Sasha more, but that`s my personal preference based on various observations. However, this is about skating and I think Alexej`s statements on Russian nationals, like them or not, were just a perfect example of his super competitive spirit which enabled him to win so many medals.
There was just a recent interview with Mishin stating that Plushenko`s personality alone was enough to get all others on the rink stepping aside when he came on the ice. That`s charisma of a champion. It`s not particularly amicable against in relations to other skaters being coached by Mishin. But let`s face it: athletes who became really successful probably didn`t become so due to always being utterly caring for others in their profession and that`s perfectly ok.
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