Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Jenya, Apr 1, 2013.
Eys, that was effin awesome !
Yup, Elena Pavlova skated with her brother Alexander at the junior level.
Doesn't he have a son? Maybe his son is skating pairs?? who knows. I hate the off-season.
Haha, it just started. Off season can be pretty trying for us fans, but it's always worse right before and right after the Olympic season.
Abt said he would never let his son be a figure skater. I'm guessing due to all the injuries, though I think his son plays hockey.
His son has skated at least some (he competed at the Juvenile level in 2009-2010, but I don't know if he's skating anymore)
I had been wondering about this too. Last information I could find is he is listed as a coach at
Aviator Sports in Brooklyn, NY
His (ex?) wife is still listed at Ice House in NJ. She is listed under her maiden name now, not Abt.
I really liked Timchenko too...wonder what he is doing now.
Also, I did watch the video on the news site...can anyone translate what Sasha is saying?
Timchenko was coaching in the U.S. for a while, Virginia I think? Maryland? Anyway, I believe he's been back in Moscow for about 2 years now. Not sure if coaching or other work/school.
Oh, very cool. I hope he has his dad's edges and camel spin.
Abt smoked so did many Russian skaters. Actually some coaches till today encourage their students to smoke to lose weight. I don`t think it would have helped his jumps to stop smoking and risk gaining 20 pounds. Not defending smoking, but I think stopping it as an eligible skater is pretty much difficult. Sasha liked to party and to drink so did other skaters, actually I know about at least two very successful Russian elite skaters who did incredibly stupid things during their eligible years when being drunk (one of them was even banned from competition for a while).
While I won`t argue that he probably did too much + after turning pro and that his professional career might have been more successful, I don`t think that this prevented bigger success in eligible years. It`s not like he skated drunk at competition. Do you really think he won less medals at major ISU championships due to ? Maybe he would have been 5th instead of 6th of 7th instead of 8th with less party & practicing a bit more, but I it would not have changed his medal count as far as major events are concerned.
Personally Im as annoyed with drinking & laziness and smoking coming up each time when Abts amateur career is assessed as with the all the references regarding his look. Im not defending him as the hardest worker, but there were a lot of other skaters who Ive seen running out of steam and lacking stamina, who still won big medals. The main factors which hampered his career were definitely severe injury with bad timing and lack of support of his own fed.
Actually Sasha has shown a tremendous amount of discipline when he came back the way he did after an injury he sustained less than two year's before Nagano Olympics and which was actually deemed to be career ending he must have worked his butt off. And what happened? Despite skating two clean programmes at 1998 RN where he should have placed 2nd, he was 4th with no chance to make the Olympic team and behind Yagudin who pulled of a Chan in the free skate with acting as a human Zamboni and doubling out most of his jumps. I think it must be pretty hard to motivate yourself to train hard when your own fed has already given you a message it won`t pay off.
Pesumably it`s just easier and more comforting to believe that success it only a product of hard work and that lack of success is the result of lack of such hard work, but life isnt that easy. - Yes, you won`t be successful without hard work, but in most cases where people are really successful, it was hard work but also a good portion of luck.
Well, as far as Sashas pro-career is concerned even as a big fan I agree that more discipline certainly would not have harmed him. For his eligible career as mentioned I dont think his results would have changed big time. The few occasions where he skated better than Alexej or Plushy after 1998 he was robbed each time anyways. I don`t think this is helpful for mental motivation. Beside that Arutunian and Zhulin both seem to be quite demanding coaches and in interviews both of them made statements that Sasha is professional, hard working and easy to coach.
In the 2001-02 season one of the reasons why Sasha worked harder was of course also that he was finally healthy and that he had better training conditions. Rafael Arutunian, his former coach, mentioned more than once that Sasha had very bad training conditions in Russia, e.g. no ice time (if I remember correctly, it once was only 1-2 hours per day!) and this partly caused by bad relations of coach & skater with Russian Fed. So lack of training was also caused by lack of good training conditions.
So true! The warming up of the edges
While Sasha really seemed to tense up in competition, in practice everything looked so easy. And when he was on, you could see how much he enjoyed being on the ice. - It was actually that impression of ease, freedom and joy that inspired me to start skating as an adult some time ago and I didn`t regret. I simply love it! Though it of course turned out quickly that the tricks were not as easy as they looked when elite skaters do them.
And we all know that hockey is less dangerous than figure skating.
I think it was not only injury, but also that Sasha knew its a very hard job but that hard work very often does not pay off in skating and that its even harder to skate when both of your parents were figure skaters. Even though Makar was enrolled in figure skating for about 2 years but then stopped (though he seemed to have talent) and switched to hockey and sticked with it up to now. Well, Sasha actually wanted to become a hockey player before he started with figure skating and I think I red once in German Skating Magazine that he not only works as a figure skating coach, but that he also teaches hockey classes.
I would love to translate, but for some reason I cannot open that clip. So annyoing.
Will try from another computer tomorrow - if it works I'll do the translation.
I love Abt's skating, in my heart he's another Jeremy Abbott, or Jeremy Abbott is another Abt whatever, but they definitely have their own problems. I don't understand why it seems that some people here blame something else more than himself? Yes Abt competed during a period when the men's field was pretty deep, but who else during that period did not? He had a severe injury in the summer of 1996, that's very unfortunate. But what about before that?
Take a look at his junior worlds records, he got 2nd place first time(pretty impressive), got 7th the second year, and then got 8th at his third JWs, a 13 year old Yagudin even placed 4th that time. Quite often posters on this board moan that he couldn't do well because he had to compete against Urmanov, kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko, but Urmanov and Plushenko weren't even there at 93-94 JWs, kulik placed behind him, Yagudin placed way above him. I can't see it's anyone else's fault.
And RNs, he placed 4th twice and then 18th in 1995? What happened? I don't think the RF supported other young guns more than Abt by that time yet.
His international GP records were not as good as the others either during the 97-98 season. These guys did not even compete at the same GP events, I don't think anyone from Russian team robbed him.
Why I have this feeling that if he skated at his international competitions better than his teammates most of the time instead of just
, then even his lower placement at RNs shouldn't really matter?
I get this picture that the pro tours in the 90s were full of parties, booze and craziness? I didn't know Abt was this kind of party animal, I just read about Bowman and wasn't Yagudin also a quite a party man (especially with ladies).
The skaters nowadays can't afford that kind of behavior and maybe they don't get that much money to spend while on tour.
The rumours circulated said the reason for some of his injuries were being drunk on the ice. Apparently having 2 sharp blades attached to your feet when dead drunk is not smart. Who would have though (not Abt, obviously)
As for the video - it seems he was giving some kind of master class in Minsk and jokingly said in front of the camera he is trying pairs. A nice 1/4 thing to say.
That makes much more sense.
And often, more likely than not, the open season can be trying too lol
YOu must have not been around when Abt got drunk on an international flight and caused problems. There was actually a vid on you tube (since removed) which recorded his behavior,
Thanks - the video wouldn't work on my computer so I was just going off of the article.
Well look at Sasha in 1991 and two / three years later. He was very tiny in 1991 and obviously had really heavy growth spurts afterwards - just look what lesser sprints did to Gachinskis jumps and when Plushenko was not able to land a quad at 2000 Worlds Mishin also cited a growth spurt as making his jumps unstable.
Add to that a coaching change starting to take effect and doing military service even if you probably have better conditions in military when you are an athlete, it still adds a disadvantage compared to other athletes. I think it was Alexander Uspenski who once in an Interview quite openly admitted that he went to university for the main reason that students dont have to do military service in Russia. That gives you an impression that going to military is not really helpful to boost ones skating career.
Sasha didnt compete at 1995/96 Nationals, as he had to sit them out due to knee injury. And the next year he placed 7th and not 18th. But yes all the others, Urmanov, Yagudin, Plushenko placed (deservedly) above him for the one reason that he just had been on the ice for a couple of weeks after a really bad injury and entered that competition knowing that he was unable to perform a 3 Axel yet. Thats what I meant with bad timing it gave the other guys a chance to overtake him in the rankings at Russian Nats. And the next year it was pretty obvious that Russian Fed supported other the youngsters far more than Abt.
I apparently missed that placement at Russian Nats were decided based on GP placements that year, because I referred to robbery at Russian Nats that year and not during the GP.
1. because the lower placement at RN occasionally didnt allow him to skate at major international competitions
2. because he skated better a number of times at international competitions and was still placed behind his worse skating teammates (EC 2002, SLC SP, WC 2000 QR
Come on, its not like that matters only in Russia if you are no. 1, 2 or 3 in your team or if a skater has support by his own fed when competing internationally.
And you on the other hand did not get that focus point of discussion was on Sashas eligible career and that video was taken after he turned pro a couple of years ago on a private flight (so not on the way to competition or something). And yes that was just incredibly stupid. But he was certainly not the only Russian skater who behaved icredibly stupid as it was mentioned here, other skaters of that generation were quite famous for liking to drink and party. Let me list a few incidents:
* a skater harassing people on street when skating in a competition abroad that he was actually suspended from competition for a while
* a skater (who was attached to another skater that time) touching the breast of one fan being around at that party.
* a skater driving his car drunk
* a skater driving his car drunk severely injuring other people
* a skater almost setting his room in fire after
Thats all stories who I either got from reliable first hand witnesses (= not rumours) or which were even in the media, though I will not link any information here. Those who know who is meant know anyways and I think there is no reason to make personal mistakes of these guys even more public than they already became anyways.
Interestingly, when skaters involved in the listed incidents are discussed, its not like any time someone is pointing finger saying did that, while each time Abts career is discussed this dont drink & fly video is always linked.
Rumours circulated on some injuries now thats what I call precise evidence. But still you of course know which one! Honestly its not like crashing the board or cutting yourself or even worse someone else with the own blade is the classical accident one can sustain only when being drunk (at least I have not heard that of e.g. Kaetlyn Weaver to name a recent example or Yagudin who managed twice to get injured when crashing the boards with his head/hand). It happens to skaters to crash boards occasionally, some get injured (= bad luck), some not (luck). You know, spreading such theories without evidence is close to reputational damage. +
Dont you think if this accident happened after lets say Sasha had drunk a bottle of Vodka before going on the ice it had not been reported by more reliable sources than "rumours circulated", in particular if you consider that Arutunian was pretty unpopular with his own Fed? Have you ever thought that rumours might be spread around by purpose?
It now worked on my computer and translating word by word he says I returned to sport, I decided to compete in pairs with the pretty girl Dasha and will compete for Belarus. But as TAHbKA Im sure he is kidding!
(*sigh of relief* from my side!)
Crazy that media reported it in a way one might believe that this was for real! Plushy would already have sued them.
Feel free to post whatever you want, it's certainly not like I was playing board police and trying to restrict you in that! However, others are also entitled to refer to your posts and add facts if they consider that they might be misleading otherwise, like I did when mentioning that the incident you referred to just happened a couple of years ago and not during eligible years. I actually referred to a possible problem with & in one of my previous posts referring to Sashas pro career (though more subtle without feeling the need to post that embarrassing video).
But again, its not like other Russian skaters never and did stupid things when being .
Drinking unfortunately is a big problem in Russia and deeply inherited in Russian Culture (my own Russian coach proposed Vodka as support, when I was really nervous before a skating test cant imagine such a proposal ever coming from an Austrian coach). Its much easier to get into troubles with that kind of background, but unfortunately also much harder to get out of them.
There can be multiple causes for why someone didn't live up to their potential. It's not like everyone who is consistent is and everyone who is inconsistent is
I'm sure Abt's smoking and drinking contributed along with other things. I don't see many people saying he wuzrobbed in every event of his career. Mainly people focus on a couple of events in 2002 where they think he was robbed, and that was the season he apparently hunkered down and really trained.
I think the real problem is that the skater's history always follows them on the ice. If he trained well and skated well enough to beat Yagudin in a particular competition, then he should have beaten him regardless of poor training habits of the past, but the judges consider things like reputation in the marks. Why would they give Abt a European title instead of the Olympic gold medal hopeful, Yagudin, when they know that Abt is probably going to screw up in the next competition? I haven't even watched 2002 Euros in a while. I remember thinking Abt was better, but probably to beat a skater with a reputation like Yagudin's he had to skate twice as well, not just a little better.
Abt certainly had admirable qualities. His edges were just to die for, and nobody had the run of blade like him. I just wish he had better routines and that he fixed his carriage and posture. There was always something off about it to me.
How true. And this level of talent and skill is what makes the debate about Sasha so passionate. So much talent and in the end, for whatever the reasons, not anywhere near a realization of his potential. There were glimpses and moments of Sasha Abt at his best and they were just inspiring and gorgeous (and I'm not talking about his face, I'm talking about his skating) - I think we all wish we could have seen him take his exceptional talent and really work career magic with it. A frustrating story to watch and for him I imagine a frustrating story to live. I hope, and I know I'm not alone, that all is well with him these days.
The website for Aviator was updated in early March and Abt is listed as a coach there. So unless he has left since then, he appears to still be coaching there.
I suspect that the fact that it was an Olympic year played a big part in the outcome of that competition, the Oly gold medal was to be discussed between Yagudin and Plushenko and the judges weren't willing to throw a third russian in the mix, maybe if Abt wasn't russian it would have been different... IIRC at the time the judges justified the decision with Alexei having a more difficult program, I'm not entirely sure if that was it but I recall reading some justification.
About the 95 RN, that makes sense. If he's 18th, there must be something insanely wrong. Thanks for the clarification. Growth spurt, military service, hope that's the real reason. But those problems other skaters could have experienced too. The military service, I don't know what it is like and why once again only Abt had the problem. As far as I know very few Russian elite athletes(I mean athletes, not just skaters) managed to finish the higher education and compete at the same time during 90s and early 2000s, lots of skaters did not even finish their 10 years general education, not to mention the university. I've read interviews from many Russian skaters said it's too hard to train and study at the same time. The only Russian skater I can think of who competed at the highest level with an excellent Academic result is Yagudin. So I guess the military problem is not so exclusive?
Come on, you know for Russians, RN is not the only decisive event for international competitions, right? Besides by the time when he competed with Yagudin and Plushenko, that two guys did so good that Russian team could always get 3 spots, and Abt was always the one got that 3rd spot. Actually he lost more chances for big competitions when he competed against Urmanov and Kulik, that's before he got that nasty injury.
As for EC 2002, I am sure the amount of people thinking that Abt's robbed or Yagudin deserved to win would be pretty close. Yagudin won 5:4, it's a close competition anyway. Yagudin skated a more difficult program, other than the jumping mistakes, he skated brilliantly and got a lot of standing ovations from the audience.
SLC SP, no comment, WC 2000 QR, dunno what happened.
I heard that he's the kind of person always needed some time to fool around with friends. It's just about if he let those things affect his career. If he could compete and study in school at the same time, and both got excellent results, and still found some time to have fun, then he's the true genius. Whether he liked to party with women or men, that's his personal life, none of anyone's business.
You are so malicius. First of all Plushy doesn't drink and he has never been such a problem, unlike another famous Russian skater whose name I won't tell you. Second, he sued twice journalist, despite the yellow press constantly lying on them. For example they wrote, Yana wasn't pregnant, surrogate mother gave birth his son!!! and so on...never ending stupid lies... He and his wife are too big stars, the yellow press wants to sell the newspapers.
first time: journalists claimed more than once that his marriage with Yana a PR trick. Constantly wrote this. That's a lie.
Second, right now. This is also a lie. Plushy had surgery in Israel.
Two parts of his latest interview:
P:" He said such things and it made me angry. I had a rough career in my sport life. My last operation, the 13th one, was the most difficult. It lasted for 3 hours and a half, they removed my intervertebral disc, put a polymer one and inserted 4 screws there. So, when a man tells to the whole country that it was all a PR lie, then of course I got mad. In fact I would have accepted his apology and nothing afterwards would have taken place if he had called me and apologized like a Man is supposed to do. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. Moreover, when someone asked him why he hadn't apologized, he said "Why should I if Plushenko didn't call me?" Such attitude is just plain rude. I was working hard for my entire life to make my name and earn the trust of people. I didn't do all this to be humiliated by some journalist who simply called me a PR liar."
P: "Well, I think if you are a sport journalist, you should comment sport precisely and nothing else. No need to comment my personal life, my wife, my kids, my so-called "show business" or whatever. I am not doing any show business. Yes, I have a lot of friends in that field. Probably some people are too concerned about the fact that I have so many friends in show business, in politics, in the theatre and movie worlds. I think journalists should have a more professional approach to their work. If they comment figure skating, so please study this sport, like the difference between lutz and flip jumps. That is what they should talk about: technical skills, programs of skaters, their costumes, choreography, so on. Journalists have to study figure skating before being assigned to comment this sport."
I' m truly believe he is right.
LOL! Because you have informations about Yagudin, only. Plushenko has two excellent "Academic" results, (if I undertsand you )
Plushenko has graduated from the Lesgaft National State University of Physical Education, Sport and Health (the coach department ) and as well the Saint Petersburg State University of Engineering and Economics, Tourism courses or something like this. (His first wife's father was owner of many hotels)
Yagudin has graduated from the Lesgaft University too (I don't know what department)
Otherwise what does that mean "Academic reasult"? University degree?
No, not only. I recall a couple of years ago there were a few skaters who suddenly were drafted. I can't recall who it was, certainly young single skaters, think it was Lutai and Dobrin, but could be completely wrong.
Kulik's army service problems (or rather, his ignoring the army) made him stay away from Russia till he was 30 or something.
Afaik (I could be a bit wrong here) every man in Russia has to either serve in the army or get accepted to a university. Most of them make it to the uni, but, apparently, not all. As for the education - sometimes some skaters post on the figure skating boards. They can't spell (in Russian!) to save their lives! I don't remember Abt ever posting in any Russian forum, but I was in ave realizing Averbukh's spelling skills (have to admit it seems to have changed and the guy either learned to spell or to use a speller).
Yagudin mentioned in his interviews time after time his mother insisted he went to a school and was a good pupil, the sport was somehow less important. I assume it would work for someone like Yagudin, who comes from St. P and his mother doesn't have to work as a cleaner to support him. I guess with a skater who comes from the middle of nowhere and their parents have to work as cleaner to support their skating the academic achievements would be less important.
All that said am quite impressed with Trankov, who seem to be able to spell just fine in Russian, is comprehensible in English, is not studying physical education like all the Russian skaters do and all that from a guy who came from nowhere and was recycling bottles for money when he was 16.
About Euros 2002, IIRC it was a 6-3 split in the judging panel. No standing ovation at all for Yags (I was there). Being a crazy über for both skater, (not in any way healthy lol, I can be seen in the stands on tv crying and falling apart with joy and disbelief after Sasha's FS ), I can certainly say Sasha deserved the victory that night. Both had good QR and good SP, I loved the Armenian porgram to death, it was SO good, but Yagudin was on fire in the short, his Winter was even better than in SLC, he was more precise to the music. I had no problem with him winning the short, though both skated clean, with the same jump content. Yags was pure magic. In the free, Yags was not his usual self. Sasha simply skated better. He was close to clean, (minor things on landings and so) with so much flow and quality edges, great spins and total it-factor. The whole package really worked. Yagudin lacked energy. He made mistakes on his 3l (doubled?), then changed the program to do it again, same mistake. It took a lot away from the choreo. I seem to recall he also made mistake on the second quad, but I have to go back and rewatch that. Anyway, as a whole, the performance didn't work, it was a struggle, though ok, but not special. Not saying Sasha's Rach was perfect, he skated a bit back and forth, but MITIM was not in normal Yags standard that night. But, I can see the judges didn't want him to loose right before the Olympics, and I'm greatful for that. I'd rather want Olys gold for Yagudin, then Euros gold for Sasha, if I had to choose.
You are not quite right. Sashas troubles with injuries started in 1995, he was actually nominated to compete at Euros in 1995, but couldn`t due I dont dare to say but injury. He had a close race with Kulik from 1994 to 1995, with once Sasha being ahead of Kulik and then it was the other way round (e.g. at RN in 94). Regarding Urmanov its pretty harsh to expect a just 17 year old teenager to beat a mature Olympic Champion.
However, in 93/94 when Sasha competed first time at RN he was not beaten by Ilia Kulik but by Urmanov, Tataurov and Pashkevitch, all much older and mature skaters. However as far as I know his 4th place was questionable, it was mentioned that zzz-Tataurov should not have placed above him.
Here is a video of young Sasha Russian Natinals (skating his SP at the Gala at RN 1994/95): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJyRoq4xjcA
lala apparently you didnt understand the meaning of the icon in my post.
If Plushenko sues the press for writing things not true that harm him, its his good right to do so. You might argue that it was not particularly smart of Sasha kidding that way in front of journalists, but then its not ok from press make that kind of headline. I dont think that this kind of press was helpful for Sashas coaching career. Just think how it might have been pursued by the management of Aviator, his students and their parents? Simply that he might have decided to quit coaching in Brooklyn as he made an irrational decision to start pairs skating.
That was my hint that theyd be careful, cause others might have taken action against such coverage and rightly so. Maybe not immediate law suit, but first a simple call to put things in a way that they are understood right.
Anyways, when checking if this pairs-rumour was right, I discovered that Sasha is getting quite a lot of good media coverage for his coaching activities right now. As Iceman mentioned he is coaching at Aviator / Brooklyn, but recently he has also been giving masterclasses all across Russia (Moscow (Sokolniki), Murmansk, Severomorsk, Kaluga, Tula) and in Minsk. Here are some local media reports with video clips:
And here is a short interview will translate soon:
I'm excited that he gets some media attention as a coach thats a big step forward!
Oh I understand. I remembered, when Sacha was actor in a Russian Tv-series. I watched some parts of them on Youtube. I didn't know, that he is working as a coach now. And I agree with you, this story like this, isn't too good for him, if he wants to be a good and recognized coach. But I really want to him the best!
He is not really good looking, but his skating was lovely. I think you are weird.
Separate names with a comma.