Age Discrepancies for Chinese Skaters

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by oleada, Feb 9, 2011.

  1. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    One tiny correction, only Yuko and Narumi are from Japan. Their partners (Yuko's former partner) Markuntsov and Tran are from Russia and Canada respectively. I wouldn't go so far as to say "Pair Power" for Japan since Japan seems to poo poo pairs skating. It's just a coincidence that they skated for that country either pair or both could have easily skated for Canada or Russia (which Yuko does now)
     
  2. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Both teams in question are Japanese. It was the flag of Japan that was hoisted in each case. The countries on the trophies/in the record books will be Japan.

    Had Yuko and "Russian Hunk #1" won the JrWorld title in 01, perhaps Japn would not have poo-pooed Pairs? I don't think they are now, with T/T.
     
  3. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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    Frau Muller, liebchen, take another look at Post #1:

    The Zhangs were age-eligible for Junior Worlds in 2001.

    Or do you have any :sekret: information that you're withholding?
     
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  4. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    But you are making it sound like it's a whitch hunt so two teams from Japan can benfit and that is simply not true.

    And actually in the case of the Zhangs, K/M never got the change to see their flag hoisted as the champions, and even if they get the gold awarded later, they'll never get that moment back.
     
  5. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Right. But early-on in this discussion, it was being speculated by others (not I) that both of the Zhangs' Jr Worlds wins might be 'illegitimate' - the 2001 one due to the female being too young and the 2003 one for the male being too old.
     
  6. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Flags are hoisted for silver and bronze medalists at ISU events, no?

    Stop the witch hunt, pls. I have paid work to do. :lol:
     
  7. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Japan does not encourage pairs. Sasha could not get citizenship from Japan just like Tran cannot.
     
  8. mpal2

    mpal2 Well-Known Member

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    We'll just tell everyone that could have won gold but got silver to not be disappointed then since they got the medal ceremony. Then we'll tell the people that could have won bronze that it was only a bronze so they didn't miss much. I'm sure they'll agree. :rolleyes:
     
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  9. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    The ISU responded to the Associated Press today: http://www.metronews.ca/ottawa/spor...o-discrepancies-for-olympic-silver-medallists
     
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  10. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Oh, get over yourself. This is not a personal campaign against you.
     
  11. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Zhang/Zhang cleared! Aww, sorry for Yuko...but Takahashi/Tran still have a chance of being named Jr World Champs of 2009/10, to give the title to Japan (and "Canada, sort-a").

    Thanks for the support, overedge. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  12. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Oleada & others who did data grabs -- did you grab data for all sports, or just for skating?
     
  13. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    I'm probably going to regret posting this, but....

    I'm really annoyed at the implication that I started this thread because I dislike the Chinese skaters (please, I dislike skaters from all countries :p) or because I want promising careers ended or because I have issues with the political system. This is not the case AT ALL. I did not go down stealthily hunting down birthdays because I wanted to prove that they were ineligible. The link was posted in another thread, and someone saw that Sui was ineligible. Looked up a few other names, a pattern came up. Found a few other links in that same website. It wasn't a witch hunt and if it had been Canada, USA, Mexico, Outer Mongolia, I would have acted the same.

    But....China has been found to fake birthdates, repeatedly, in multiple sports. Does that make me extra suspicious, especially when the pattern shows them to become eligible with the new birthdays? Well, duh. Who wouldn't? It's not about checking the birthdays of every single skater for every country. Sports operate on the assumption of everyone being on the same playing field, so if people submit a passport, an organization will accept it as true. But when birthdays come up in an official website as being different....then yes, you investigate then. IME, this hasn't been the case for Skate Canada or JSF or USFS.

    I do feel bad for the skaters who are involved, because I doubt they have much of a voice or opportunity to stand against a system, but I feel much worse for the skaters who they beat if they were competing when they weren't eligible. They'll never get the opportunity to stand on the podium or skate their free program.

    And I'm not sure what that one gymnast back in the 80s has to do with much. It was wrong then for Romania to do it and it's wrong now. Just because she wasn't caught or because it was found out after the statute expired, does not mean it's okay for other countries to get away with cheating.

    Sorry, barb, the answer is no.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
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  14. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Oleada, there's no doubt that you did NOT set about doing this on purpose, against individual skaters. You did well-intended research. Regardless, it may result in costing Sui/Han the Jr World title. And it may not. The choo-choo has left the station and it's now in the ISU's territory.
     
  15. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    Well, if he's too old, then they shouldn't even be there anyway.
     
  16. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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    I tried to do the same thing for Uzbekistan, but the Federation doesn't have a website. :fragile:

    I did do some :sekret: investigation on Anastasia Gimazetdinova, though. She was second at Uzbekistani Nationals in 1997-98, and eighth at Four Continents in 1999. I'd say she's probably over the ISU's minimum age limit for seniors by now. :)
     
  17. johnet

    johnet New Member

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    deleted
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  18. DinDonShamu

    DinDonShamu New Member

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    Finally, the truth comes out. Gizmo is OF AGE! :cheer: :rofl:

    ETA: Just want to honor George Orwell with my current number of posts :sekret:
     
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  19. taf2002

    taf2002 Texas slumlord

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    Let's rephrase this question:

    Oleada & others, do you have unlimited time on your hands so that you were able to data grab for every sport on earth, whether or not you're interested in those sports & whether or not the other sports have age limits?
     
  20. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Ah, no... that's not why I was asking. :rolleyes:

    If they had happened to have grab info for other sports from the Chinese websites, investigating errors in reported ages in sports where age is not likely to be a significant factor (such as marathon and 10,000 meter runners, or weight lifters) then it might be interesting to see whether Chinese athletes sent to international competitions in those sports had birth dates that matched what was provided to the international federation for that sport. If their data is similarly messed up for these other sports, then one might reasonably say that Chinese data is a GIGO problem. If there are not the kind of age discrepancies we see in skating, then it causes one to think hmmm... if it is indeed random error, why just in skating?

    I thought that Oleada and others did some fine research. I don't read Chinese, but I have been involved in both auditing and statistical analysis, and just thought that this might be another possible way to assess the issue, which I might have been able to do had the data been grabbed.

    But thanks for looking out for Oleada's interests and schedule.
     
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  21. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Hasn't Daniela Silivas said that she was 13 in Montreal when she won her first world event final?

    Romania was an egregious offender of age rules until about 2004. The hot rumor was that Andreea Munteanu was underage and that's why she got "injured" shortly before the Athens Games.

    Since they don't threaten for gold on the women's side, thanks to the new code, (they suck on bars), I don't think the FIG feels that going after them is very sporting. Also, the violations were from a long time ago.
     
  22. equatorial

    equatorial New Member

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    Gizmo is probably over the maximum age limit for seniors by now :saint:
     
  23. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Found a story here about a Chinese who's socially pressured into changing his age.
    http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/big5...wen_zhong_xin/2011-02/17/content_22085600.htm :(

    The story talks about Li, whose parents did not believe in falsifying age. But everyone around him did it, which made it difficult for him to survive in his team when everyone on paper was two years younger than he was, and hence had more "potential" for top-notch training or provincial and national team spots (though in reality everyone's the same age). So he finally changed his age.

    The age situation also makes it difficult for the "younger" boys to date girls because on paper they are younger than the girls. It becomes, on paper, love between "little brother" and "older sister". :rofl:
     
  24. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  25. equatorial

    equatorial New Member

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    We are a bunch of "enthusiastic netizens" :rofl:But the quotes are very tame, only the 93ning one mentions a specific skater.
     
  26. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Why the :eek:?

    FSU has been promoted to a bolded subtitle!

    ETA: My favourite Babel Fish translation (bold mine):

    :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  27. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    :rofl:

    benedict david, you are famous!
     
  28. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    hmm, I can't read chinese... who is Benedict David?
     
  29. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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  30. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Huh. Are the Japanese media really all over this? (That seems to be what the last article suggests.)