Age Discrepancies for Chinese Skaters

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by oleada, Feb 9, 2011.

  1. Yukari Lepisto

    Yukari Lepisto New Member

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    as a matter of fact, you'll be surprised how much i know about China, and what kind of connection i have with China. But for privacy, i don't reveal it on here.

    I know people buying houses both in China and US. and they all told me China has no paperwork compare to the amount of paperwork required in the US.
  2. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    We're talking about people's birth records, not people buying a house. The amount of paperwork for one has nothing to do with the amount of paperwork for another.
  3. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

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    Off-hand, and I have not looked specifically in this case, when Wiki says so-and-so teamed up in a year, that's usually from the ISU bio notes section. You can review previous versions of ISU bios through the Wayback Machine (isufs.org/bios url for before they switched over to isuresults.com/bios)
  4. Ilvskating

    Ilvskating New Member

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    unfortunately we can't throw away 1997 as they won their first Junior Grand Prix Gold medal Oct. 1998 in Beijing, which means they paired up at the end of 1997, and isu bio also said they paired up in 1997. So the first scenario appear correct. Then I wronged Dan Zhang according to your analysis. What a mess. I need to go back to see what I did wrong.
    As for the source of "12", it was from the reporter reporting what Dan Zhang said, and as I reasoned in earlier post, should be reliable as she was the person who experienced it and recalled it under no pressure. She was defending herself being short comparing to Hao Zhang, as being too tall for his age, not she was to short.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  5. benedict_david

    benedict_david New Member

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    Yes you are right, the isu bio shows they paired up at 1997. Likely in December if the "10 months" is correct.

    But Hao Zhang can't be 12 as of December 1997, he would be about 13 yrs 6 months old. I think she was more likely to refer to herself, if she was born in 1985 then she would be 12 then. But I'm not sure, the translation is barely readable for me.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  6. Yukari Lepisto

    Yukari Lepisto New Member

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  7. bek

    bek Guest

    Angelskates, the issue here is that the Chinese have a documented history of actually changing ages. Look at the 2000 team. Yes paperwork can be murky but the fact of the matter is that when you have a history of lying about a situation like this, you lose credibility.

    Its documented they've changed ages before. And the "pattern" is awfully advantageous for China as well.

    And its not just the age eligibles who lose out on medals that get screwed about this. What about the experience that the age violators get over the age ineligibles. That's hardly fair either. That's why skaters should be banned for every year they competed ineligibly.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2011
  8. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you. So, bek, what evidence would satisfy you? Is there a way now that China could prove they haven't cheated this time? Or do you think, with the evidence presented in this thread, that China cheated, without a doubt? I think the information presented, like Benedict_david said, warrants investigation, but I don't think it says that without a doubt, there was cheating. I'm not sure I trust ISU to investigate anymore than I trust the Chinese Federation, because there is always politics involved.
  9. bek

    bek Guest

    The only evidence that could possibly satisfy me with the Chinese at this point is if they present consistent records. Sure you might have a newspaper account say something wrong. It happens though way to much and its way to convenient. But seriously wrong data on a website. I think the Chinese should have to register their athletes ages, and those ages should have to stay the same. Period.

    Its the Chinese federation's own fault that people can't take their word. They've got no one to blame but themselves there.

    I mean the way Chinese skaters ages have changed defies "systematic problems." Wasn't Bing Shu one age, and then suddenly another age. And this happens all the times. Its hard to imagine its all just bad paperwork. It would be like if the Russians had reported Adelina, Elizaveta, and all of them has one age and then suddenly all said oh no they are really older and perfectly eligible.

    I mean I'm sorry but the Australian federation doesn't have a history of saying their athletes are one age, and then are conveniently another. And I'm sure there was evidence of Cheltzie being the right age, a lot earlier than when the "age change became convenient."
  10. Ilvskating

    Ilvskating New Member

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    If it was for Dan Zhang being 12, suppose that Hao Zhang was born in 1982, and he would be 15 at that time. He would have 6 good years to explore the Junior field, more than enough to go to senior if the fed belived that they were that good, and that made it right to the 2002 olympic year. Why would he have changed his bd? It just confused me.
  11. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand. How can they present consistent records when we've already seen inconsistent ones presented in this thread? Would you believe records presented by the Chinese federation now, or would you think they were doctored?
  12. bek

    bek Guest

    No, what I mean is the Chinese should have to to send in paper work for their athletes years in advance. This is after all a country that has a sports machine system, so they can register their kids. The ages they report at that time are their children's ages.

    I mean I'm sorry but He Kexin the gymnast was reported as 14 literally six months before she became 16. Essentially they will have to change ages of every single child in their sports system.
  13. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    But that doesn't answer my question about this case. Do you believe 100% just based on the information we have, that they cheated this time? Is there any evidence the Chinese Federatin could provide now that will change your mind?

    Do you think that only the Chinese should send in paperwork for their athletes years in advance? What happened then to having the same rules for everyone? China should have to have to abide by the same rules as everyone else, not have rules just for them.
  14. brina

    brina Well-Known Member

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    ^ Re: He Kexin. I totally remember hearing about her before Beijing, like 2007, and hearing, oh, it's a shame she's too young to compete in Beijing. Then all of a sudden whoops, guess she was old enough all along! :rolleyes:
  15. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    They've already proved that they are willing to falsify age information, so what they say has little credibility. You validate the information by going back to source documents and inspecting them for consistency and data. I do genealogy work as a hobby, and there is a plethora of data out there, often with conflicting information. You sort your way through it. Some records are better than others -- obviously data captured closer to the time of birth and recorded in written (not electronic) form in a register or something similar is going to be more authoritative than an entry in a spreadsheet. Information captured earlier in a skater's competitive career is going to be helpful. The key is that the Chinese federation (which is the same as the Chinese government) can't exactly be relied upon to do this research, and that's the challenge. It is doable, but the Chinese federation simply announcing that all paperwork is accurate is, imo, inadequate.
  16. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    So, again, I ask barbk, what evidence would satisfy you? Would you consider an ISU investigation independent and adequate? (They would likely get all their information from the Chinese government, too). I don't actually think much government information is kept on hand written forms, most - if not all - is computerized across several (very poorly connected IME) departments.
  17. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Same here. And I don't get why the Chinese got off so easily on that. There really wasn't any evidence?
  18. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    I suspect a decent team of genealogists from Taiwan could get the job done. There are more corroborating sources of evidence than people often imagine, and I'd be surprised if good researchers couldn't find it. I don't think that the ISU is able to investigate the way out of a paper bag, so no, I wouldn't particularly think they'd be good at it.
  19. bek

    bek Guest


    The Chinese and any federation that has a history of falsifying ages in Olympic sports in recent memory should be forced to preregister.

    And as for it being the same rules for everyone. There are consquences and punishments foractions. Nations that have a history of following the rules, earn the benefit of the doubt. Nations who have a history of breaking the rules, have to be held to higher standards until they have earned the Sporting worlds trust again. The alternative is saying "we won't play with you at all."

    And as for how do I know that this time they are cheating. I don't know if every Chinese athlete who is being accused of being age ineligible is ineligible. If it was just one or even two, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But come on Angelskates, the pattern here is just way too obvious. IF this was the case of just error, than we would see more than just one kind of error. We'd see athletes who were really age eligible, having documents that say they aren't age eligible, and being left behind. Etc. All we have is variations that are favorable to China.

    Its not like China is just being picked on because they are China. They are being picked on because they've done this in the past, and have thumbed people's nose in it. If they are innocent in this case, well its still a boy who cried wolf scenario.
  20. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, in the court of public opinion China has been tried and found guilty. The ease with which they are able to produce paperwork on a whim makes any document they produce suspect.

    Fortunately for them, the only opinion that truly matters is that of the IOC and ISU and they will accept their documents and call it a day. Realistically speaking, what else can they do?

    I don't expect anything to come out of this beyond an oops "clerical error." Until the next time...
  21. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    But that's the thing, I agree, probably nothing will happen this time, but there has to be a better way for the future. The ISU will only sweep it under the rug if they, too, benefit. If they weren't to benefit, people would trust them to investigate. The fact that the ISU is not trusted is not good for skating. What's the solution to that?

    Barbk - the question is who would hire the team of genealogists from Taiwan? The ISU couldn't hire them, the ISU aren't to be trusted, and the same is said for the Chinese Federation.
  22. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Taiwanese genealogists could do it, but 1) is genealogy a big hobby in Taiwan as it is in the US? I've never heard of people doing genealogy as a hobby until I've seen Americans do it. 2) Taiwan doesn't have much stake in skating as a sport but sending Taiwanese to investigate a mainland issue could be a sticky situation.
  23. johnet

    johnet New Member

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    deleted
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  24. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I can't make head or tails of the China Daily link johnet provided, so I found this which seems to be the same story:
    http://news.ifeng.com/sports/zonghe/detail_2011_02/17/4714423_0.shtml

    Well, someone is following our discussion all right. :shuffle:

    Translated excerpt (by google):
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  25. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was well known that there are some FSU members who are Chinese journalists?

    :rofl: I love google translate. Just to add another version, here's Yahoo! Babel Fish

    :rofl:
  26. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    What is the statute of limitations for age violations? Because there have been some shady things from Romania in the nearer past.
  27. aliona22

    aliona22 New Member

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    I believe 16 years for Olympics.
  28. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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    As far as I know, the ISU can deem the birth dates listed in the spread sheet as admissions by the Chinese Federation and disbelieve any conflicting evidence. That would be enough to warrant a one-year ban on Chinese entries at any international figure skating competition for one year.
  29. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    "age gate" -- color me surprised that the "____gate" terminology for a scandal apparently made it over to China (or at least made it into a Chinese-English translation utility.


    New bulletin news Reporter Liang Jing reported that opens the Dan/Zhang Hao “the age gate” most to start is (www.fsuniverse.net/forum) insolation leaves by a foreign country figure skating forum, because has the net friend to send the placard to inquire that China figure skating contestant who age is most young, in collects in the material process, the net friend discovered that has in the multi-names the national flower slippery contestant's domestic registration material and international does not unite the symbol slippery.

    Not real clear on what the rest of the sentence means, or how the national flower plays into it. I guess we can all get behind not uniting the symbol slippery.

    (I don't think this one went through the Google translator -- that one seems to produce more comprehensible Chinese to English than this would seem to be.)
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  31. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    They call it age gate (or age-door) in Chinese too.

    National flower slippery contestants - national figure skating contestants

    international does not unite the symbol slippery - Does not match (what is in) International skating union.

    You didn't know skaters are slippery fragile flowers did you? :rofl:

    ETA:
    pinglun (in the url) is commentary in Chinese. :)
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  32. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    barbk - it took me a bit to understand the English national slippery flower bit, and I speak and read Chinese :lol:

    In Chinese, figure skating is hua yang hua bing 花样滑冰,character by character it is flower-type-slippery-ice.
  33. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Thank you!

    The language resources on FSU are nothing short of amazing.
  34. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    Of course they did. I never doubted it. :rofl:

    It kills me too-that it's the athletes who will suffer the most if they were found out to have been cheating. :(
  35. softlip

    softlip New Member

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    It is unrealistic for a single person too check all the info of all the other skating countries. However, being interested of the amount of typos/errors of other feds is fair enough. And other posters asked to look into other federations too for the sake of comparison and fairness.

    So, since I have no life :p here are my to samples: I compared the birth dates of to national team members on the respective official homepage with the birthdates on the ISU bios. (No syncro teams.)

    Japanease national team: 65 skaters. 20 skaters don't have an ISU bio. For the other 45 skaters there were no discrepancies.

    German national team: 58 skaters. 15 skaters don't have an ISU bio. For 18 skaters there were no birthdates on the fed's homepage. (Overlapping here.) Overall I was able to compare the birthdates for 33 skaters. No discrepancies here.

    That means I checked 78 skaters from two federations and I found not a single error/typo.
    The link to the "2007-document" in the first post isn't working anymore. How many skaters were listed there?
  36. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's a bigger question than just this investigation, I think.
  37. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is. But it relates to this and every other problem in skating. The ISU accepts or denies allegations etc. If the ISU isn't trusted, then it doesn't matter as much whether the federations are trusted, because it all stops at the ISU. Whether the federations are telling the truth or not is left to the ISU to decide.
  38. Civic

    Civic New Member

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    The plot thickens.

  39. a56

    a56 New Member

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    No solution to that. Everyone knows what happened when some prominent figure skating officials tried to set up a rival skating federation in 2003. :p :lynch: Down with Sally-Anne Stapleford, Ronald Pfenning, Britta Lindgren! :lynch: Plus, dear Speedy is going to be President of the ISU until he dies. :drama:
  40. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, it doesn't even have to be team from Taiwan. Let's say, team of genealogists from several countries (perhaps 5 countries), and if possible choose the countries whose skaters have something to loose by Chineese cheating. (for example, if Wenjing Sui were not old enough to be at GPF in December 2010, Iliushechkina/Maisuradze were robbed of their bronze medal at GPF). I think the strongest discipline (and the one where the cheating would benefit most) is pairs, so why not choose the genealogists from Germany, Russia, USA, Canada, because they have got the strongest pairs and they have got something to loose if Chineese skaters are cheating.