Adult Level Question

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by misskarne, Feb 4, 2014.

  1. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Now that ISA has introduced the Copper division, I am sorely tempted to compete at Adult level only this year. But before I make that decision, I wanted to check that I'm reading the program requirements right - primarily the jump elements.

    Here is the wording from the official ISA document:

    This has confused me a little.

    Now, I have to confess that my Salchow is my worst jump. It's horrible. No matter how hard I work on it its just...yuck. So I want to avoid it if at all possible.

    My ideal jump layout for this level would be: 1Lo, 1F, 1Lo-1T, 1F-1T. Have I read the requirements right? Could I do that layout, or is only one jump allowed to be repeated?
     
  2. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Never competed ISA, only USFSA but that seems to make sense to me. The way I read 'any solo jump can be repeated only once' was that you couldn't 'Zayak' and do 3 flips or the like.

    Also, not sure if this matters in ISA or not, but in USFSA events it's common to see 3 jump combos if they are allowed. Since you mentioned sal's not going to happen, could you do waltz-loop-toe or waltz-toe-loop? If that's not going to happen, obviously stick to the current layout.

    Good luck :)!
     
  3. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    The current layout will work. Each jump can only be repeated once; not that only one jump can be repeated.

    I would note that I don't think a waltz jump is considered an axel type jump if you wanted to use it, but I think your layout gets good points as is; with the exception of not having a 3 jump combination.
     
  4. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    My question would be about the toe loop. You're right, the wording is a little unclear, but it could be interpreted as saying that you can only repeat a jump in combination if you've already done that jump on its own. If that's what it means, if you are going to use the toe loop as part of a combination, you would have to have a single toe loop on its own earlier in the program.
     
  5. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you have to do the toe loop on its own because it says that the jumps in a combination can be the same, so 1T-1T would be both toe loops in combination and allowed.

    I think it is just you can't do 1T and 1T.


    I don't know about ISA but when I was switching from USFS to ISI I was able to email them and get clarification on the rules- they were helpful. Is there someone at ISA who can clarify? I'd say ask a coach, but my experience is that coaches often know less about adult skating than adult skaters do, since they mostly deal with kids.
     
  6. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    It says "any solo jump can be repeated only once, and this repetition must be done as part of a jump combination or jump sequence". I agree that this means you can't do 1T and 1T, but it could also be read as that you have to do 1T as a solo jump *before* you can do e.g. 1F-1T or 1Lo-1T. IOW you have to do the jump as a solo jump before you can include it in a sequence.
     
  7. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    So how do you explain 1T-1T, which is allowed by
    You can't do 1T then 1T-1T because that is repeating a jump 3 times.
     
  8. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Well, clearly if you did 1T first then you couldn't do an 1T-1T combination. At least not if you wanted to get points for it.

    I think misskarne needs to contact ISA and get them to officially answer this question.
     
  9. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I'm starting to think so too :lol:

    Thanks for all the help though, everyone. :)
     
  10. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Having been a TC on Adult events in Australia, the Australian rule for Adults (which aligns with Obertsdorf) is you cannot repeat a jump more than once and then if you do repeat it it must be in combination. For example if you did a program of jumps like this:

    1Lo
    1T
    1F+1Lo
    1S*+1Lo*
    1T*

    I have * the jumps that you would be marked invalid and get no value for them. Be very careful because as you can see the Sal and Lo combo is lost altogether. It is not just the Lo because it has already been twice before. The second Toe is also lost because it wasn't done in combination which it needed to be to be counted. But is also additional to the maximum number of jump elements that are allowed.

    As for your jump layout as listed in your initial post, that would be fine and no jumps would be marked invalid.

    Hope that explains it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
  11. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    mmm, I'm not sure if this layout would work... When I read this:
    It sounds like you can only repeat a maximum of 2 jumps. In your case, you're repeating 3 jumps (The loop, the flip and the toe loop). Maybe either substitute one of the combos with a waltz-toe, or only do 1 combo (so 1lo, 1f, 1t, 1f-1t)

    or bring in the sal ;)
     
  12. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    It says a max of 2 jumps of one type can be done; not 2 jumps only can be repeated.

    Anyway, an ISA judge has said the layout is okay.
     
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    They are only repeating a couple of the jumps twice and in both cases doing those jumps in combination. If they did them solo (not in combination, then they would not be counted and thus marked invalid). So it is fine.

    Waltz jump would not counted for a combo because it is not a listed jump.
     
  14. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Oh, thankyou AW. :)
     
  15. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Since the rules clearly allow half jumps- "Only single and half - revolution jumps are permitted" how does this work since none of the half jumps (waltz, 1/2flip, 1/2lutz) are listed jumps?
     
  16. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I think AW meant in terms of IJS calling? In the US, we don't use IJS for lower-level events (not even for regular gold, unless it's the championship version), but it sounds like they might in Australia. So she was telling misskarne a waltz jump wouldn't get any additional points. Maybe potential GOE's, if the combo is done well since entering it with a waltz is definitely harder than doing a 2-jump combo.
     
  17. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I'm just wondering how ISA rationalizes telling skaters jumps are useable in their program in the rulebook but then awards no points for them.

    Under IJS I thought half jumps DIDN'T take up a jump box, because they were unlisted jumps- but the way this rule is written, it seems they would count as a jump.
     
  18. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    I thought waltz jumps were a counted jump for adults that got points (base value of 0.5 IIRC). In the Canadian system they are, and I assume that system is also in line with the requirements at Oberstdorf.
     
  19. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Skaters will not be penalised for doing half jumps but they won't count because they are not listed jumps. They are just not programmed in the IJS software - really that simple.

    Copper is really an encouragement level to provide adult skaters with an opportunity to start getting into competition. Also the skaters do not require an ISA test (Preliminary) to be able to do it which also helps because the idea of doing tests freaks a lot of skaters out. So it's focus is not on competitiveness but rather participation and encouragement. Quite a noble endeavour and it was a great achievement to get it included into the national rulebook last year at the ISA AGM (I was there :)). It also helps build up participation numbers in the sport and provides a pathway between learn to skate and then the ISA structure.

    Australia has also set test levels to compete in adult divisions. Whilst this is not in the Obersdorf rules, ISA took the initiative to say that if you want to compete, you need to have a certain test level to be able to do it. So for Bronze you need to have a Preliminary test, Silver Elementary, etc. But you only need the pattern tests, not the program tests.

    As adults have the opportunity to compete at Australian Nationals, that is one of the reasons the test levels were implemented.