Adelina Sotnikova & Elizaveta Tuktamysheva - Some Videos From Their Summer Shows

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I just wish Mishin could take the PCS part more seriously and start working with better choreographers. :(

    Not only boring, but pretty much deaf too. :p

    Liza at least is capable of more or less skating to the music, even though her expression could get much more mature and sophisticated (and obviously she needs decent choreography because her programs so far have been very poorly constructed).
  2. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    No. It's a shame because her positions are quite stunning, but so far her choreography has been front loaded and empty. I think she will improve dramatically in this area in a season or two, though.
  3. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

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    Oh, there's another thing I just remembered. Her spins need work, her layback is not very good (and the bielmann isn't either), and that weird camel catchfoot thing that the Russian juniors do looks awful.
  4. parasolka

    parasolka Member

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  5. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    LOL! Skating is so funny! I swear, it's completely subjective; people see things differently...

    Some people here find Adelina a bit boring...but that's my impression of Liza T! It's so weird! I do agree Adelina needs some better choreography but I don't find her boring or deaf to the music, though she does skate through it rather than to it. But, in my eyes, Liza T isn't much better in either category. She has more choreography but it's rather contrived to me; I don't get the sense that she feels what she's doing...yet.

    Say what you will about her competitive programs, but Adelina's Black Swan exhibition was fabulous. There was a lot of power in that routine as well as elegance and I think she pulled it off brilliantly and believably. I much preferred it to Liza T's Michael Jackson exhibition, though it was good.

    Thankfully, all of this can be corrected on both sides. Both have things to work on but that's the beauty of being 14 and 15 years old...there's plenty of time to work on technique, spins, posture, line, musicality, interpretation, etc.

    I have high hopes for both of them...
  6. Eris

    Eris New Member

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    No. ;) I agree she has wonderful posture, presence, high jumps etc. But sometimes I can't make myself to watch her program till the end.
  7. Fashionista

    Fashionista New Member

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    She already has improved dramatically in expression department during this summer. To me she looks obviously different to what we saw last season and at JW in particular. Looks like she's more relaxed now and really feels the music (check Black swan video from Korea).
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    So you don't find her deaf to the music but you agree that she skates through it. Right... :shuffle:
  9. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Your snark is appreciated. However, there's a difference:rolleyes:. When I say she skates through the music I don't mean she skates as if there's no music on or she's on the ice with earplugs, ie. "deaf to the music." I mean, her movements emphasize the right notes in the music but the music isn't a part of her like it is with skaters who really feel, relate to, and interpret the music more thoroughly a la Yu-Na Kim or Mao Asada.

    Point is, there's more that can be pulled out of the music, a deeper feeling and understanding can be conveyed, and she's not doing that right now...thus she's skating through it. Get it now?:p
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  10. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    Some very good points

    However they compare, looks like they are both friends:-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMuK5Gqv794

    Interesting to note how this compare's with the relationship between various skaters down the years.
  11. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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    It´s not weird, just like you said it´s subjective, to me it´s absolutely clear they both are very talented girls, I won´t be surprised if I find Adelina very exciting in the future. :)
  12. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Musically, S is much more subtle but she uses her whole body to express the music. Check out the opening of her program. The spiral exit was timed perfectly to the music. And her Swan Lake exhibition shows she can be much more expressive with the right program.

    T's music is much more colourful but frankly all she does is accentuate each beat with her arms and it gets extremely repetitive and annoying about 1 minute in. Would love to see her use her body / feet more to the music.
  13. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Both are very talented obviously. Still, they are young and can change with time and improve artistically wise. So, to me for now it's hard to tell who is the most artistic. They are currently very dependent on their choreographer and their personnality will develop soon. In this area some grow up faster than others but it doesn't mean that the ones who take more time to develop will get less artistic. Anything can happen for them, depending on their coaching team, their personnal developement, their choices...

    For now and after watching these programs, I can't say that I was impress by either of them artistically wise. I've had a preference for Liza whose style is for me more original, the way she presents herself, her energy, how she puts her arms, and overall look. She is kind of more "exotic". Adelina looks more like a ballerina but I don't find her very gracefull as the swan. Her arms are not particularly beautifull, she doesn't move them like a ballet dancer would do in the part. The reference in skating being Oksana Baiul, I can say that Adelina is not at all at Oksana's level.
    Actually choosing swan lake is very risky for a skater because it can reveal the lack of balletic qualities that could be hidden otherwise with another balletic or non balletic music.
  14. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    At present, I like Adelina more. However, I actually think Liza has more of a presence on the ice, and I think she has more artistic potential. But unfortunately, she reminds me of Plushenko a lot. I thought a young Plushenko had a lot of potential but he never developed it by having any good choreography.
  15. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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  16. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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  17. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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    This is not a problem with Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva. Instead, it goes to the heart of the problems with the current marking system. Time and again, you hear criticisms about Sotnikova and Tuktamsheva in relation to artistry, etc, and hear of comparisons with Cohen and Kwan. However, the emphasis of the current marking system is firmly on the technical side, whereas Kwan and Cohen were brought up under the old system in which there was far more emphasis on artistry. The fact of the matter is Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are a product of the current marking system and their coaches have quite obviously geared their coaching towards ensuring that they can meet the technical demands of the current marking system. Personally, I think Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are very good artistic skaters. Whilst it is quite true that they are not at the same level Cohen was at the same age, that is a completely unfair comparison because Cohen was one of the greatest artistic skaters of recent times and she was brought up under a completely different system in which there was much more emphasis on artistry.

    A lot of us have said for quite a while now that there is far too much emphasis under the current system on the technical side and a better balance needs to be found between the technical and artistic sides of skating. A by-product of that is that the coaching of junior skaters is now firmly geared up to producing more technically gifted skaters. Consequently, compared to years gone by, today's juniors artistry is less developed than previous generations. Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are typical examples of this change in emphasis. Now, if people have a problem with that, the answer is not to criticise Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva, and their coaches. Instead, the answer is to do what a lot of us have doing for some time and calling for a change in the marking system. As stated, the balance has moved far too much towards the technical side and this has mean't that compared to years gone by, programs have become rather dull and boring - a bit too much of a jumping and technical competition.

    As stated, I think both Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are very gifted artistic skaters and will improve as time goes by. Cohen and Kwan were better artistically at the same age, but that is simply because they were brought up under a different system in which there was greater reward for artistry. Had Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva been brought up under the old system, then right now they would almost certainly be better artistic skaters than they already are. Blame the system for that however, not them or their coaches. I would love to see the balance redressed in favour of more artistry as the programs from 10 years ago were far interesting to watch than they are at present.

    I think that if the current system remains as it is, don't be surprised to see more and more technicians coming through rather than proper all-around skaters as time goes by. Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are early evidence that that is likely to be the way of the future.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  18. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Sotnikova is a perfect example of a skater who has the basics down and does everything right (deserving high PCS scores) but still leaves a lot to be desired in the presentation area. Unfortunately, there's not much incentive to change this from a judging/scoring perspective.
  19. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    That's one of the main reasons people accuse COP of taking a lot of the beauty out of skating. Because the emphasis is skewed much more towards 3-3s and big jumps, a lot of the attention paid to things such as presentation and artistry have been set to the side in favor of learning stacking the jump arsenal.

    I really hope that both girls will continue to develop and grow and that there will be better artistry, choreography, etc. in the next few years.
  20. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I think I'd maybe be more impressed with Liza's skating if she looked more mature physically. Watching her compete last season, she just still looks like such a little girl out there, very tiny, all legs, and a bit ungainly. Adelina looks young too, but is significantly taller and sturdier than Liza and no longer has that colt-ish look about her, which helps her presence on the ice a lot, I think.

    Of course, in another season or two, I'm sure Liza will grow up significantly and I may feel very differently about her skating once she does. Watching recent videos of Polina Agafonova, now that she's finally grown up, her skating all of a sudden looks a lot more impressive.
  21. millipied

    millipied New Member

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    Well I do. Why every skater has to be compared to Cohen and Kwan? Can't the skater have their own style or no style at all?
    For me what made the fgure skating in Kwan era was the fact that there were completely different athletes who competed with her successfully despite not having even a slight chance of matching up artistically such as Slutskaya. Not everyone is an American style ballerina. Thank God to that!!!
  22. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    :scream:
  23. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: but :yikes:
  24. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    A skater certainly has a right to have no style :lol:
    I do not doubt the current system encourages points and not overall artistic impression. Still, if you have an artistic inclination, no system can kill it. See Nagasu, who has artistry and personality on ice despite mediocre choreography; and she showed that she "got it" at 14 already. See Jason Brown ( add any superlatives, the kid's got artistry in spades). See Anna Ovcharova ( sadly missing these days...). Sure a skater could develop artistry, but some just have it. So far IMO Adelina does not listen to music, despite her regal, balletic presence; Liza does, so I'd bet on Liza being more interesting later ( if she ever gets good choreo).
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  25. bek

    bek Guest

    Uh. I can. I'll leave Sasha out of it. But I'll point out that Michelle Kwan when she debuted at 13/14 was hardly the most artistic skater ever. I think its quite unfair to compare either Adelina/Elizaveta when Michelle made her transformation. When Michelle had two years on the circuit than and was also a year older than they were last year.

    If you want to compare age wise than you'd need to look at current programs.

    I think that Adelina has all of the makings of becoming an absolutely beautiful skater. And I think Elizaveta has all of the makings of becoming a very dramatic charismatic skater.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2011
  26. Fashionista

    Fashionista New Member

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    When Kwan became the symbol of artistic skating? Did I miss something?
  27. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone was talking of styles but believability. And if the comparison with Kwan or Cohen upsets you so much, you can take a look at Oksana Baiul or Mao Asada at the age of 14-15.

    By no means would I ever rule it out.

    Isn't she the skater who received the most number of 6.0's for the second mark?
  28. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    I agree with you. I don't think Adelina had graceful arm moves or anything compared to an actual ballet dancer. Also I don't like when skaters try to copy ballet and even wear tutus! To interpretate ballet is very very difficult unless you have actually been practicing it for years and have the skills. Otherwise the program will look like a poor man's ballet. I don't understand why do they need to do these kind of ballet-on-ice type programs when they could be creating the choreography and costumes based on the beauty and art of skating.
  29. millipied

    millipied New Member

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    Believability of what exactly? I have seen all those skaters at those ages and I don't see how Adelina or Liza are less "believable" as a junior level skater than anyone you are going to bring up here.
  30. altai_rose

    altai_rose Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that Adelina did not seem like a ballet dancer. However, I do have to defend her choice of music and program. Adelina's program is not going to look like ballet because she is not a ballet dancer. That's a fact. But skating to such a program will help her improve her line, help her pay attention to the music, work on her positions, etc. It's a good learning experience for her.

    What I like most about Adelina's presentation is her confidence. No, she doesn't have the most graceful positions or the most fluid movements but she projects a lot of confidence in her skating that is very nice to see. I like Liza's arm positions a lot. She has a softness and lightness in her skating that I really love.