Adelina Sotnikova & Elizaveta Tuktamysheva - Some Videos From Their Summer Shows

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. ciocio

    ciocio New Member

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    It´s not weird, just like you said it´s subjective, to me it´s absolutely clear they both are very talented girls, I won´t be surprised if I find Adelina very exciting in the future. :)
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Musically, S is much more subtle but she uses her whole body to express the music. Check out the opening of her program. The spiral exit was timed perfectly to the music. And her Swan Lake exhibition shows she can be much more expressive with the right program.

    T's music is much more colourful but frankly all she does is accentuate each beat with her arms and it gets extremely repetitive and annoying about 1 minute in. Would love to see her use her body / feet more to the music.
  3. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Both are very talented obviously. Still, they are young and can change with time and improve artistically wise. So, to me for now it's hard to tell who is the most artistic. They are currently very dependent on their choreographer and their personnality will develop soon. In this area some grow up faster than others but it doesn't mean that the ones who take more time to develop will get less artistic. Anything can happen for them, depending on their coaching team, their personnal developement, their choices...

    For now and after watching these programs, I can't say that I was impress by either of them artistically wise. I've had a preference for Liza whose style is for me more original, the way she presents herself, her energy, how she puts her arms, and overall look. She is kind of more "exotic". Adelina looks more like a ballerina but I don't find her very gracefull as the swan. Her arms are not particularly beautifull, she doesn't move them like a ballet dancer would do in the part. The reference in skating being Oksana Baiul, I can say that Adelina is not at all at Oksana's level.
    Actually choosing swan lake is very risky for a skater because it can reveal the lack of balletic qualities that could be hidden otherwise with another balletic or non balletic music.
  4. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    At present, I like Adelina more. However, I actually think Liza has more of a presence on the ice, and I think she has more artistic potential. But unfortunately, she reminds me of Plushenko a lot. I thought a young Plushenko had a lot of potential but he never developed it by having any good choreography.
  5. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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  6. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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  7. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Well-Known Member

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    This is not a problem with Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva. Instead, it goes to the heart of the problems with the current marking system. Time and again, you hear criticisms about Sotnikova and Tuktamsheva in relation to artistry, etc, and hear of comparisons with Cohen and Kwan. However, the emphasis of the current marking system is firmly on the technical side, whereas Kwan and Cohen were brought up under the old system in which there was far more emphasis on artistry. The fact of the matter is Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are a product of the current marking system and their coaches have quite obviously geared their coaching towards ensuring that they can meet the technical demands of the current marking system. Personally, I think Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are very good artistic skaters. Whilst it is quite true that they are not at the same level Cohen was at the same age, that is a completely unfair comparison because Cohen was one of the greatest artistic skaters of recent times and she was brought up under a completely different system in which there was much more emphasis on artistry.

    A lot of us have said for quite a while now that there is far too much emphasis under the current system on the technical side and a better balance needs to be found between the technical and artistic sides of skating. A by-product of that is that the coaching of junior skaters is now firmly geared up to producing more technically gifted skaters. Consequently, compared to years gone by, today's juniors artistry is less developed than previous generations. Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are typical examples of this change in emphasis. Now, if people have a problem with that, the answer is not to criticise Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva, and their coaches. Instead, the answer is to do what a lot of us have doing for some time and calling for a change in the marking system. As stated, the balance has moved far too much towards the technical side and this has mean't that compared to years gone by, programs have become rather dull and boring - a bit too much of a jumping and technical competition.

    As stated, I think both Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are very gifted artistic skaters and will improve as time goes by. Cohen and Kwan were better artistically at the same age, but that is simply because they were brought up under a different system in which there was greater reward for artistry. Had Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva been brought up under the old system, then right now they would almost certainly be better artistic skaters than they already are. Blame the system for that however, not them or their coaches. I would love to see the balance redressed in favour of more artistry as the programs from 10 years ago were far interesting to watch than they are at present.

    I think that if the current system remains as it is, don't be surprised to see more and more technicians coming through rather than proper all-around skaters as time goes by. Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva are early evidence that that is likely to be the way of the future.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  8. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Sotnikova is a perfect example of a skater who has the basics down and does everything right (deserving high PCS scores) but still leaves a lot to be desired in the presentation area. Unfortunately, there's not much incentive to change this from a judging/scoring perspective.
  9. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    That's one of the main reasons people accuse COP of taking a lot of the beauty out of skating. Because the emphasis is skewed much more towards 3-3s and big jumps, a lot of the attention paid to things such as presentation and artistry have been set to the side in favor of learning stacking the jump arsenal.

    I really hope that both girls will continue to develop and grow and that there will be better artistry, choreography, etc. in the next few years.
  10. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I think I'd maybe be more impressed with Liza's skating if she looked more mature physically. Watching her compete last season, she just still looks like such a little girl out there, very tiny, all legs, and a bit ungainly. Adelina looks young too, but is significantly taller and sturdier than Liza and no longer has that colt-ish look about her, which helps her presence on the ice a lot, I think.

    Of course, in another season or two, I'm sure Liza will grow up significantly and I may feel very differently about her skating once she does. Watching recent videos of Polina Agafonova, now that she's finally grown up, her skating all of a sudden looks a lot more impressive.
  11. millipied

    millipied New Member

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    Well I do. Why every skater has to be compared to Cohen and Kwan? Can't the skater have their own style or no style at all?
    For me what made the fgure skating in Kwan era was the fact that there were completely different athletes who competed with her successfully despite not having even a slight chance of matching up artistically such as Slutskaya. Not everyone is an American style ballerina. Thank God to that!!!
  12. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    :scream:
  13. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: but :yikes:
  14. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    A skater certainly has a right to have no style :lol:
    I do not doubt the current system encourages points and not overall artistic impression. Still, if you have an artistic inclination, no system can kill it. See Nagasu, who has artistry and personality on ice despite mediocre choreography; and she showed that she "got it" at 14 already. See Jason Brown ( add any superlatives, the kid's got artistry in spades). See Anna Ovcharova ( sadly missing these days...). Sure a skater could develop artistry, but some just have it. So far IMO Adelina does not listen to music, despite her regal, balletic presence; Liza does, so I'd bet on Liza being more interesting later ( if she ever gets good choreo).
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  15. bek

    bek Guest

    Uh. I can. I'll leave Sasha out of it. But I'll point out that Michelle Kwan when she debuted at 13/14 was hardly the most artistic skater ever. I think its quite unfair to compare either Adelina/Elizaveta when Michelle made her transformation. When Michelle had two years on the circuit than and was also a year older than they were last year.

    If you want to compare age wise than you'd need to look at current programs.

    I think that Adelina has all of the makings of becoming an absolutely beautiful skater. And I think Elizaveta has all of the makings of becoming a very dramatic charismatic skater.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2011
  16. Fashionista

    Fashionista New Member

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    When Kwan became the symbol of artistic skating? Did I miss something?
  17. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone was talking of styles but believability. And if the comparison with Kwan or Cohen upsets you so much, you can take a look at Oksana Baiul or Mao Asada at the age of 14-15.

    By no means would I ever rule it out.

    Isn't she the skater who received the most number of 6.0's for the second mark?
  18. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    I agree with you. I don't think Adelina had graceful arm moves or anything compared to an actual ballet dancer. Also I don't like when skaters try to copy ballet and even wear tutus! To interpretate ballet is very very difficult unless you have actually been practicing it for years and have the skills. Otherwise the program will look like a poor man's ballet. I don't understand why do they need to do these kind of ballet-on-ice type programs when they could be creating the choreography and costumes based on the beauty and art of skating.
  19. millipied

    millipied New Member

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    Believability of what exactly? I have seen all those skaters at those ages and I don't see how Adelina or Liza are less "believable" as a junior level skater than anyone you are going to bring up here.
  20. altai_rose

    altai_rose Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that Adelina did not seem like a ballet dancer. However, I do have to defend her choice of music and program. Adelina's program is not going to look like ballet because she is not a ballet dancer. That's a fact. But skating to such a program will help her improve her line, help her pay attention to the music, work on her positions, etc. It's a good learning experience for her.

    What I like most about Adelina's presentation is her confidence. No, she doesn't have the most graceful positions or the most fluid movements but she projects a lot of confidence in her skating that is very nice to see. I like Liza's arm positions a lot. She has a softness and lightness in her skating that I really love.
  21. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Maybe they think they can. But it's a mistake. They should be told that and their coach/choreographer should be aware that doing the ballerina request to be a ballerina. In no way it is possible to imitate a ballerina, you are or you're not. Not every skater is like Oksana Baiul. Even Sasha Cohen failed at doing the ballerina. Lucinda Ruh was much closer to look like a ballerina.
    If they still want to do a ballet program they should take the adaptation way, like Arakawa did with swan lake. She took another way of interpreting the ballet, adapted it to figure skating and moved like she could. She didn't pretend to look like a prima ballerina and it worked far more than those copies.
  22. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Fo Liza and Adelina I think they just need time. They are already ahead of Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen at the same age, and they can't focus on the same things at the same time. They are young and full of potential. Let them grow.

    Personnaly I have a preference for Liza. To me she looks like she has more dramatic potential and more charisma. Time will tell. Hopefully she will get good choreographies and she will avoid the Plush's sydrom (that is full of artistic potential, killed by ridiculous choreographies).
  23. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    And that's what Vodorezova said about Adelina's Swan Lake LP when she won Nationals at the age of 12. Coach and choreographer wanted Adelina to understand what's classic is about and to learn from that experience. And I think it worked. Of course she has her weaknesses, but first of all the girl is only 14, it was her first international season, and I think consistency, an ability to skate under the pressure and do her best when it counts are the most important things for her now
  24. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    They land 3-3 jumps but no way they are ahead of Michelle Kwan at that age, in terms of overll program/presenation.

    Michelle won her first world title at age 15 (Adelina's age?)- remember Salome'?

    At 14, she was 4th in the world- narrowly missing the bronze, only because she looked so young, and not like a 'lady'. So the following year she had a more mature costume, a bun to 'sell' the performance to the judges.

    Of course we don't know where Adelina and Liza would place if they were competing at senior worlds right now, since they are not age eligible. I still don't see them as better than Michelle at 15. Age 14 may have some valid arguments.

    Sasha at 15 was a pretty ballerina with flexibility, and she created beautiful pictures on the ice. She did have the ability to present and connect with the audience even then. She was obviously weaker than the Russian babies in jumps (though she did land 3-2-2 combinations regularly). I never saw her at 14.

    Funny how many posters put Michelle and Sasha in the same bracket, when Michelle was winning world titles at a young age, and Sasha never made it to the real top. I don't mean she is not a beautiful skater. I do like her skating, but I would not say she and Michelle could be considered nearly equal.
  25. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Vash01, I actually meant they are ahead technically. I forgot the word "technically".
  26. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    OK. Thanks for explaining.
  27. millipied

    millipied New Member

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    Well another example why today's juniors can not be compared artistically or otherwise to the stone ages of Michelle Kwan. They are not training to compete at senior level like Michelle did at the same age.
    In any case, it is just completely stupid to do, Michelle is Michelle. Adelina is Adelina. Why even compare? I just don't get it. If you want comparison, compare to the skaters she is competing with.

    With all due respect to Cohen, one thing she never had is competitive mindset which demonstarated by her title record on the World stage. Always crumbling under pressure and I pitied her fans those days. Both Adelina and Liza already achieved more than Sasha Cohen did at the same age competitively. Now go and "artist away", as much as you want.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  28. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Uh, well yeah, you must have missed something...quickly get thee to YouTube and educate thyself.:dog: Years 1996 thru about 2003 in ladies figure skating ought to do it...

    Not necessarily the junior level; it's more about the age. The point is though Liza T and Adelina are ahead of the pack when it comes to the technical part of the sport (specifically the jumps b/c their spins are super-weak compared to some of the other ladies), but they aren't wowing anyone with their presentation, interpretation, artistry...most of the categories in the PCS mark. That's not to say they won't, though.

    But for the sake of comparing, I highly doubt Adelina or Liza T could take a program like Salome, or any mature piece for that matter right now, and pull it off effectively ie. not look like a girl skating to some music but rather a character relating to and through the music...

    To clarify, if people don't get the significance of interpreting music or expression through movement, conveying a character and a mood, or other artsy stuff like that, then this discussion will probably go waay over their head...I'm just sayin' :shuffle:
  29. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    What I don't understand is why there seems to be this huge demand that junior skaters should be this amazing artistic package before they've even skated senior internationally? They're junior skaters with some pretty phenomenal tech content and a ways to grow artistically which they will as the years prgress. They're exactly where they need to be at this stage of their careers. What's so wrong with that?

    Now if Adelina was skating this way aged 18-19 or Liza hadn't been rescued from the eville clutches of Mishin's totally shite choreography by Sochi, then I could understand the griping!! :lol:
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this (except for the Mishin comment, which is nasty, IMO for a coach with a long track of success). These girls are 14 and 15 and they are already being criticized for lacking artistry. Most successful skaters (e.g. Kristi Yamaguchi, Brian Boitano) were just jumpers before they developed a complete package, and they were much older (17-19) than these girls when they were just jumpers. Even Michelle at 13-14 was just a jumper. So all this criticism is way too early and therefore unfair, IMO.
  31. Daria

    Daria New Member

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    I disagree in part. Plushenko had some good choreographies in the past (1999, 2002 and 2004 lp's). So I don't think Mishin is completely unable to give some decent choreo to Liza. But I wonder how much time Adelina and Liza spend in ballet training, if they do it. I think Liza said in an interview some time ago there was no choreographers in Glazov help her in artistry.
  32. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    First of all, Mishin doesn't choreograph his skater's programs and never did. There are more than enough of choreographers in his group, like Kovtun who works with Liza. Sometimes Mishin can take some choreography/transitions off the program to make it more comfortable for a skater to land the jumps though.
    I don't know about Liza, but Adelina has ballet trainings and always had, I think her posture and lines prove that.
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  33. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but her arms and carriage certainly don't. :p
  34. Daria

    Daria New Member

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    Autumn, thanks for the information.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2011
  35. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Fair enough I stand corrected, but if that's the case then Mishin needs to get a new crop of choreographers because the current output for his skaters is absolutely :scream: and has been for years.

    Vash, I would be the last person to diss Mishin the coach - I agree his results speak for themselves. However the packaging of his skaters is and has long been shocking and skaters of such talent and ability deserve sooooo much more. Nothing nasty about that at all. :)
  36. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    'Nasty' was probably a poor choice of word, on my part. Perhaps 'unfair' would have been better.
  37. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    No I don't think so. So someone else 'choreographs' these so called programs for Mishin's skaters. He's still the head coach and ultimately responsible for what goes out onto the ice. How am I being unfair just because he teaches great technique and his skaters have been successful? IMO their programs on the whole are still dross and SHOULD be better!!

    ETA: Ok so I am dissing Mishin a little but on this point I think it's deserved. ;)
  38. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I think different coaches have their strengths. Mishin's strength is teaching his students how to do the jumps well. Tarasova's strength is in bringing out their deep emotions. Tamara's strength is in getting her skaters ready for the competition, right at that moment ("hypnotizing them"). My point is that one person cannot do it all, and it takes a team to make the skaters and the coaches successful, so I am going by the track record of the coaches.
  39. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    Voice of reason as per usual.
    floskate and (deleted member) like this.
  40. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here but this post made me think... I guess the reason that people expect amazing artistic packages from these girls is because they believe skaters like Baiul and Kwan exhibited great artistry at a similar age (not sure if you agree). They already had international senior experience though, because the rules were different. So did they exhibit artistry because of something innate that they had, or because of experience skating in seniors? In Kwan's case I guess I would chock it up to experience, since she revamped her style significantly after 95 Worlds. In Baiul's case it's impossible to tell, since there are no videos of her prior to that 1992-1993 season, afaik.

    The reason I find it interesting is that the reason for the age cutoffs for senior Worlds/Olympics is supposed to be to save their young bodies from the technical demands of the senior circuit (though some think the true reason is to keep young girls from winning everything and then retiring so the ISU can benefit from ticket sales). As you point out though, being in juniors has not stopped Adelina and Liza from having amazing technical content. So ironically, keeping them out of seniors did not have the intended effect, but may have stunted their artistic growth. Makes one wonder if the rule is even worth it.

    I also think it's really dumb that Adelina will be eligible to skate with seniors in the Grand Prix in fall of 2011, but not mature enough to skate with seniors at Euros/Worlds until Spring 2013. :lol: It would actually make more sense if ISU flipped it and let them do senior champions before the GP.