Adelina "downgraded" to alternate for Worlds

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

    14,617
    3,347
    113
    I'll grant you Julia probably should have been behind her although she has much cleaner jumps (and in my mind more appealing programs) than Ashley. But that would be 6th place, not 4th. Are you saying you think Ashley skated better than Mao & Gracie? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

    Thanks for the laugh.
     
  2. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

    2,031
    166
    63

    I think in the SP at least, a case could be made for Ashley ;)
     
  3. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

    639
    47
    0
    Ashley skated very well in both programs but missing her opening 3x3 probably effected her overall score and not just that specific element.
    You won't see that in the rulebook but it seems a real enough way to hold a skater down.

    It is easy for certain fans to prefer Ashleys' more dramatic style over Gracie's retro Princess style.

    But style is not the determining factor. It's the points that matter and who can rack up the most points will be most successful in the current system.

    Does IJS even claim the system accurately determines who is the best skater?
    I think it claims the skater who scores the most points wins. Is that always accurate or at times even credible?

    Julia made two big mistakes in the LP and Ashley made one big mistake.
    Other than that who scored the most points?

    I think it is a valid argument for some to say "Ashley outskated Julia" but this system is a more about quantity than quality. Right now that seems to be true whether one is discussing the tech or the components.
     
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,935
    813
    113
    Indeed, Ashley skated well in both Olympic programs, and decently well in the team event too. She clearly deserved better than 7th overall in ladies singles. All this nitpicking about Ashley. I guess I must have missed the nitpicking about Julia L being given humongous scores for her singles event mistakes, especially for PCS! Reminds me of that new tv show that was being excessively promoted during the Olympics: Believe. As if you guys don't know already, it's about a young girl with special powers who requires protection by an ex-con against all the baddies trying to kidnap her. Guess the network was promoting the show during commercial breaks to the right demographic what with everyone going goo-goo ga-ga over Julia L during the Olympic figure skating team event. :lol: Yep, the message seems to be that little girls are gonna save the world with their prepubescent powers.

    Thanks for Carolina and Yu Na, and Mao, and Akiko, and Ashley too. Yes, Ashley did some wimping out at Nats after hard work and success during the tough GP season. But honestly, since USFS knew they wanted Ash on the team, why not cut some slack for her minor sp bobble -- she proved during the season that she could land the 3/3. Why not at least give Ashley a vote of confidence for the sp and reward her for her maturity? If she'd at least been granted better PCS and placed third in Nats sp, then maybe she might have hung tougher for the fp. Sending Ash wounded to the Olympics ensured the ISU judges were gonna look on her no matter how well she skated, kinda like they did on Johnny at Vancouver Olympics. And oops, I almost forgot that it is prepubescent teenagers the skating world and the world at large tend to be more tempted by and fixated on. I say, Let the young teenagers grow up, at least a little. Growing up a little more under Frank's tutelage sure has done wonders for Gracie Gold (granted she's fast approaching over-the-hill in skating years, ;) in terms of how the judges seem to be judging lately. :duh:).
     
  5. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    3,963
    155
    63
    ^so are you suggesting they should have overscored Wagner based on "confidence" that she can do a trick that she failed to execute in the moment? Do I have this right? :confused:

    Do we want or not want reputation judging? Or should it only apply to our favorites? Can't have it both ways...

    ETA: I should point out that the blatant over scoring of Flatt at 2010 Nationals didn't help her case in Vancouver...
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  6. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

    65
    9
    8
    You wont ever see Sotnikova compete again. She doesn't want her win to get exposed for what it really was.
     
  7. Tinami Amori

    Tinami Amori Well-Known Member

    9,657
    827
    113
  8. skatepixie

    skatepixie Well-Known Member

    1,327
    52
    48
    I agree with this. She's got a lot on her plate right now, and doing a quick turn around might not be in her best interest -- there is always next year. I say let her enjoy all the good things that come from the win, and enjoy them without the pressure of Worlds being around the corner.
     
  9. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    2,038
    460
    83
    That would be silly. With Yu-Na, Carolina and probably Mao leaving next season, Adelina is perfectly positioned to be one of the top ladies in this post-Sochi era of skaters. Prior to her win in Sochi Adelina was one of the top (if not the top) "newbies" in the field. With the Olympic experience in her pocket, she has the green light to move forward and continue to compete as one of the top names in the sport.

    It's up to her though. After getting the top prize she'll have to find motivation to continue to skate. Hopefully she'll find it.
     
  10. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

    65
    9
    8
    New people always emerge. The Russian fed. probably sense the huge swell of negavity around Sotnikova and will probably wisely promote Julia and Elena R. above her by next year, and there will likely be many others coming up the pipeline of the Russian supergirls after them.
     
  11. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    2,677
    1,000
    113
  12. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

    65
    9
    8
    The technical scoring was not remotedly right either. Sotnikova was overscored about an average of +1 GOE per element, and Kim purposely underscored by an average of +1 per element. Think how many points difference that already makes. Then Sotnikova should have gotten edge calls on both lutzes, a downgrade on her triple lutz-triple toe at the end, and not been given level 4 footwork sequences while Kim should have. Sotnikova would already be thrashed by Kostner and Kim just changing the TES fairly, and the scary thing if we haven't even started on PCS. Would Sotnikova even keep her bronze once we get into that?
     
  13. misskarne

    misskarne #408

    6,404
    1,356
    113
    And you're an international technical specialist with all of the necessary qualifications, are you?

    Kim did not skate her best that night - there were a couple of landings that were a bit wobbly. She skated with no passion, no emotion, like she was just going through the motions (PCS hit). GET OVER IT.

    And yes, okay, they were in Russia, and there was a bit of a bump up for the home skaters. THE SAME THING HAPPENS IN JAPAN, USA, CANADA, EVERYWHERE, and I don't see endless threads whinging about that.
     
  14. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    12,997
    1,793
    113
    You missed all the :argue: about Chanflation?
     
  15. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

    14,617
    3,347
    113
    The "huge swell of negativity" is only happening on boards like this & only from biased posters. Who won the ladies OGM is a non-story for most of the world. And if you think the Russian Fed (or any fed for that matter) who would promote an up-and-coming skater over their own OGM, then you must not know much about skating politics.

    Yes, but that happens on every continent. :)

    BTW, for those who are saying Ashley skated well & deserved better than 7th, yes, she skated well for her. But just because she didn't fall down doesn't mean she didn't have any technical flaws. I thought the placement of the top 10 ladies were correct except for Julia Lip who was boosted in both the short & long.
     
  16. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,935
    813
    113
    Well, I was very excited to see Adelina come out with such energy and excitement, explosive jumps and amazing confidence and consistency for her, to simply light up the sp. I admire Yu Na and Mao for many reasons, but I was not looking forward to another Olympic showdown between them. They are both talented and wonderful veterans, but Yu Na seemed to be just going thru the motions, without any of the determined fire she displayed at last year's Worlds. Mao has been receiving huge scores for some flawed technique in programs for the last two seasons, so unfortunately it all caught up with her in Sochi. It was sad to see her falter so badly in the sp, but she responded like a determined champion in the fp. I rooted for Mao in Vancouver, but not as much recently. Still I admire her courage and her heart.

    Carolina was underscored on PCS in the team event, but a bit of nerves had her tight on some of her jumps during singles fp, so it was a victory for her to medal especially without a program chock full of difficult jump technique. When it comes to class, grace, beauty, maturity and superbly delivered choreography, of course Carolina is golden. Too bad Olympics didn't take place in Italy, eh?

    But, oh well, since it was obvious the home team wanted to push thru not just for the podium, but for gold for a Russian lady, I was relieved that it was the more talented Sotnikova rather than the over-hyped Julia L. Possibly, Radionova will be better than both Adelina and Julia, if she is given the chance to develop into a complete skater.

    Most of all, Ashley needed to believe in herself more this season and have a stronger fp. Apparently she lost some confidence with Nicks retiring, and the break with Mills did not help matters. Overall, Ashley handled those challenges well, and she had a good GP season but seemed to be losing ground with her confidence as the season progressed, while Gracie was being groomed to shine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  17. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,130
    612
    113
    We will see if Adelina turns into Elena Davidova (testing skating fans' knowledge of Gymnastics here :p ) - Olympic Champ, but nothing else to follow.
     
  18. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

    8,515
    1,718
    113
    :rolleyes: Davydova was exquisite. Adelina is far from.
     
  19. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,935
    813
    113
    I was not a big fan of Rachael Flatt, and I felt USFS often over-rewarded her which came back to bite all involved eventually. But also pretty cruel how they completely dropped Rachael after the infamous Worlds debacle.

    Doesn't really matter how fans want it 're our faves. When it comes to fs, our hearts will be broken time and time again. The inherent politics and uneven and often unfair scoring in fs is legendary. We could talk for days about the peculiar scoring in ladies event at U.S. Nats, this year and last, but let's not. Suffice to say, they score how they will anyway, so why not give better and more deserving PCS to an internationally recognized skater who is expected and indeed preferred to make the team. I think Polina's PCS were overdone, and it was obvious at least IMO that US powers that be were more interested in simply putting some distance in the sp between Gracie and Ashley in particular and rest of the field in general than they were in actually rewarding Mirai, who they viciously disregarded post-event.

    Maybe fans can never have it both ways, but heck, TPTB sure can. In fact they can have it six ways to Sunday and spin results till they're set in stone.

    I am a fan of Ashley and Gracie, BTW. Indeed, I enjoyed watching all the U.S. ladies this season.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    786
    113
    Davydova won an event medal on all of bars, beam, and floor at the 80 Games or 81 Worlds, and won another AA medal at the 81 Worlds, so I wouldnt say she followed with nothing. Although I hope I am wrong my best guess on Sotnikova is she will truly pan out as a 1 hit wonder, and would be lucky to have a Davydova like follow up to her big win.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    786
    113
    With all due respect you must be living under a rock or in a coma if you really believe this (and I say that as someone who doesnt even agree with the blown out controversy). It is funny you are the same poster who called Poetzsch-Fratianne, Kerrigan vs Baiul in 94, Lipinski winning in 98, and Hughes in 2002 as major controversies and insisted I was wrong when I grouped all those as minor or merely debated decisions. Do you honestly believe those are more talked about in "most of the world" than this. Absolute delusion to the highest order if you actually do. :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  22. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

    1,159
    740
    113
    What landings were wobbly? The only slight error I saw was the scratchy, toe-picky landing on her second triple Lutz.
     
  23. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

    888
    133
    43
    that's correct..
     
  24. alchemy void

    alchemy void it's time for the perkolator

    4,279
    1,379
    113
    Yikes, I'm afraid Adelina v. Yuna is the new Oksana v. Nancy. Let's. Rehash. Every. Single. Biased. Point. Over. And. Over.

    Anyways, 99.9% of the world doesn't care who won the ladies OGM. Maybe South Korea, FSU, and Ashley Wagner. That's all.
     
  25. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    3,963
    155
    63
    I have a better idea - if they were so bent on AW on the team, then nominate her BEFORE the event based on the strength of her season up to that point. Then judge Nationals by what is actually put out on the ice. I give them credit for not holding Wagner up because they easily could have done. (Not that there wouldn't have been an outcry, of course - see 2013.)

    Anyway, no use rehashing that thing again. What's done is done, and hopefully they can make it clearer for everyone moving forward.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  26. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

    14,617
    3,347
    113
    Gee, it doesn't read as respect.

    As you know, when I mentioned those other controversies I was speaking of controversies within the skating community. The poster I was answering was acting like the big buzz in world news is still Adelina's win. It's been at least 2 weeks since I've seen any of the Oly skating news mentioned anywhere except skating boards. So I guess I've been living under a rock. When I open my browser or pick up a newspaper I don't see one word about skating. I do see news about Ukraine & about the missing Malaysia plane. I don't see "a huge swell of negativity". The closest thing I've seen about skating news is the fact that Meryl & Charlie are going to be on Dancing With The Stars.

    BTW I still believe that who won the ladies OGM is a non-story for most of the world. I don't know one person in RL who gives a sh**.
     
  27. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    3,757
    324
    83
    I happen to love both of Adelina's programs, especially her LP. To each his own.

    You know best of course with that crystal ball. Melodramatic much? :drama::rolleyes:

    Davidova won AA bronze at Worlds the year after the Moscow Games. Top 3 after the Olympics is nothing to sneeze at.
     
  28. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

    888
    133
    43
    even if an american is involved with this whole ogm thingy.. no one really gives a crap about figure skating.. if you ask anyone outside of the fs community about the whole ogm judging they will say.. "hmmm.. what else is new?"
     
  29. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    12,997
    1,793
    113
    I don't see the similarity. Oksana versus Nancy is athletic versus artistic - and wooden versus charming, in this case - which it pretty much always come down to in these debates. The argument is always that the person/team with lesser technical content was more artistic or had a more complicated program.

    Adelina v. Yuna does not come down to that. Adelina's tech base was less than 2 points above Yuna's and she had a step-out. Yuna is technically textbook perfect. Her spins are not the best, perhaps not as good as Adelina's, but her landings are usually a thing of beauty. Adelina's landings were not quite so fluid.

    And there really isn't much of a case to be made that Adelina is more artistic than Yuna. Yes, she was more emotionally expressive than Yuna and skated with more attack. But those two qualities do not equal artistic superiority. Mae Berenice skated with amazing attack and emotional expression too. So did the Italian lady. So did Ryan Bradley when he (questionably, in the minds of many) won Nationals.

    Although Yuna is not emotionally expressive, she has the natural gift of pure grace and is far more aesthetically appealing than Adelina. Her long limbs help, but body type does give skaters an advantage/disadvantage, like it or not.

    If you watch her entire body when she skates and don't focus on her face, every movement is art on ice. She ticks off all the boxes. The only PCS box in contention is the Performance part of Performance/Execution.

    I say this as one who was never a Yuna fan and did not want her to just show up and retake the Olympic title. But credit should be given where credit is due. I never cared for Sasha Cohen, either, but not a ladies competition goes by when I don't wish someone would do a spiral to rival Sasha's.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  30. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    4,366
    916
    113
    I'll admit, ladies is my least favorite discipline, so the Olympic result isn't nearly as scandalous to me as to some others. But...

    Didn't Yuna have a pretty noticeable UR on her 2nd triple lutz, not to mention one less triple?