Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 11, 2012.
Adam, time to consider that your coach might not be the problem.
^^ Mightn't it just be time to lay off gnawing the bone re Adam's "problems" and perhaps work on considering our own individual mundane weaknesses and possibilities for improvement.
No? Oh well, I guess telling skaters where they err and what they are doing wrong is just so much more fun.
In addition to technique, of course, it is mostly a question of strength to weight ratio. It is a lot easier to rotate jumps when you are small and easier to get height when you are light.
Hanyu is only 18 and Jin is only 15. Neither of them has the body they will have at 23 -shoulders get wider, torsos get thicker. Folks tend to think of the puberty monster as something girls deal with, but physical maturation also affects guys, just a bit later. Who knows, by the time their bodies mature, those 3As may have gone the way of Lambiel's.
That sums it up.
I took away from that article that he was being accountable and wasn't passing blame on anyone. I was glad to read one thing that he tried out with Arutyunyan before he moved out there. AFAIK that was not the case here at DSC. I remember he was only working with Pasquale on programs at the time the change was published. It was before he even had a lesson with Jason or Yuka. I aways thought that was strange.
Not to mention, this is Figure Skating Universe. Not [Random Poster] Universe. We come here to talk about figure skating, not engage in naval gazing. (Well, I do anyway.)
^^ Sure, sure. But some of the constant critiques are just so redundant and presumptuous. I appreciate reading constructive criticism and interesting takes (such as those about the physical/ technical requirements involved in jumping) more than snarky comments telling skaters they are the source of all their "problems."
Paying attention to and taking care of one's own life (when not posting on FSU ) is not a call for "navel-gazing," IMO. But carry on everyone so desirous of either "navel-gazing" or telling skaters what their problems are exactly.
Yes, well. Most of us "take care of our own life" away from FSU so you should probably assume that most of us are all set with that since you have no evidence to the contrary.
No one is forcing you to read anyone else's comments. You are free to skip the ones that don't please you.
^^ Duh. Goes without saying. And the same goes for all.
I certainly feel free to read comments as well as post comments. Sometimes I agree with other posters, and sometimes not. Whether or not I am pleased or pissed is entirely beside the point.
Good luck to you Adam!
Shocking news. wow. I have to trust in team Adam though that they know what is best for him. This season is going to be a a hard one for any of the men with the return of Johnny and Evan PLUS all the other men who are proving to be serious contenders. With only 2 spots for the world team warming up to an Olympic season Adam HAS to have a break out season.
Maybe it became too difficult to skate alongside Jeremy seeing how they are such good friends. I can totally see how that would get hard for both of them, Jeremy is Adams competitor and maybe Adam had to separate himself from DSC to focus and work on his jumps. I don't know, I am babbling.
I hope this proves to be a good move for Adam. Lake Arrowhead is a great facility, I remember some other great skater trained there, but I can't recall her name.
LOL @ "Shocking news." It would be more shocking if Rippon actually stuck with the same coach for more than 1 season. In this, his 5th season as a senior skater, he has now had 4 coaching changes. That is definitely Bobek territory.
Quick rotation alone is the product of bad jumping technique (one that relies largely on strength in fact ).
Correct use of edges and good timing will provide with you enough lift off. It obviously helps to be reasonably fit but you don't need a great deal of strength.
I didn't find it "shocking news" either, but definitely surprising that Adam made a coaching change at this point in the pre-season. However, the fact Adam moved to Morosov while still a junior was definitely a good move for him in that he won two Junior World championships, but it wasn't meant to be that Adam and Morosov would stay together forever. Who stays together forever with Morosov? So, the fact Adam moved from Morosov to Orser was a good move for Adam. Unfortunately, the fact that Adam ended up moving from Orser to DSC seems to have been precipitated for reasons largely outside of Adam's control, and yes it turned out to be a good move for Adam too.
I'm not aware that Adam has struggled with applying himself and training hard, but he has experienced the necessity to switch coaches likely more often than he ever anticipated or wished to have happen. However, I don't think the fact that he's had to switch coaches three times previously, and in this latest case felt the need to change coaches once again automatically labels him as being in "Bobek territory," if by that you mean switching for random reasons having to do with not being disciplined and focused, not working hard, and not improving or realizing one's potential as a result.
I'm glad Nicole Bobek has grown from her mistakes and difficult experiences, and that she seems happier and is skating again. I'm glad Adam seems to be determined to do all that he can to fully realize his potential. If that means training with Rafael and Frank at Lake Arrowhead, good for Adam! And again, I wish Adam luck, and I look forward to seeing his new programs.
Funny how some fans either complain that skaters who stick with their coach need to switch coaches, and then criticize skaters who switch coaches more than once as being desperate and in trouble.
Adam training along with Tatsuki Machida, Daisuke Murakami, and Nathan Chen...plus Evan still goes up there sometimes.....sounds good to me!
Adam joins the list of top male figure skaters here in the epicenter of men's freeskating: Southern California
Maybe it's the sun, the beach and the girls....
I disagree, I think it requires athletic ability to execute good technique. Every sport requires a different combination of quickness, coordination, and strength relative to the athlete's size, but if you don't have it all the coaching in the world won't help.
From everything I've read Adam has the drive and discipline to train. He had great success at the junior level. I think his mental problems come from his inability to execute the big jumps not the other way around.
Do you mean the Wangs?
Rippon has landed two clean triple Axels in the same long program before (2009 Junior Worlds, 2010 Four Continents, 2010 Japan Open). My feeling is that Rippon needs to stabilize his 3A technique under one coach (the telegraphing entry was at its worst last season) and I think Arutunian will be able to help him there. Jeff Buttle landed 3 clean triple Axels at 2008 Worlds after working with Arutunian that season. ETA: As for whether or not Rippon will be able to land quad jumps successfully in competition... we'll just have to to wait and see.
P.S. to aftershocks: Rippon won his second Junior World title with Orser (that was their first competition together since Orser could not attend 2009 Nationals, Rippon's senior debut.)
Muscling through jumps is done when the technique is lacking and is a very poor substitute for it. Jumping through brute force puts a lot of strain on the back and you're extremely unlikely to achieve consistency this way.
Obviously a reasonable level of fitness is required but you need nowhere as much strength as in some other sports where technique is much more crude.
It's all about controlling your entry edge (and your whole posture) and timing your entry right. If you do it well, those will provide you the lift off.
One thing that does help a lot is core strength and stamina. So having lean but dense muscles, being able to control your posture very well. Hence pilates and yoga and not weight training are the preferred skater off-ice activity. Being too muscular is an impediment because it makes you too heavy.
Thanks Sylvia for the correction! Likely Morosov might still like to take at least a little bit of credit for Adam's second Junior Worlds title (since he and Adam hadn't been long parted ). According to Rippon's Wiki entry, he left Morosov in late November 2008 and moved to Toronto in December 2008 to begin training with Orser. Adam announced his new coaching relationship in January 2009, and competed at Junior Worlds held in Sofia, Bulgaria, February 23 - March 1, 2009.
Adam was skating beautifully at that time with clean and fairly confident-looking 3-axels. Difficult to track exactly where/ how/ when the problems with his 3-axel began. Perhaps his technique was not solid and in the switch from Morosov to Orser, the necessary stabilization of that jump did not happen. Adam certainly seemed on track for a good season in late 2010, but the wheels came off at Nationals 2011. Hard to know for sure, but obviously some disconnect happened between Adam and Orser (especially after the difficulties at their rink post split between Yu Na and Orser). Post 2011 Nationals, Adam clearly had lost a lot of confidence, which affected his jumps.
ITA Sylvia, with your assessment. I was amazed at Jeff Buttle's performances at 2008 Worlds... his 3-axel had improved so much. Working on proper technique with a coach who specializes in technical skills, and gaining confidence and belief in self might be the key.
Interesting factoid on Wiki that I never knew -- Adam Rippon was born deaf but underwent surgery at Yale University when he was young which allows him to hear almost perfectly.
Having just watched Chen slaughter the field at JGP Austria, Artunyan is definitely a great coach. Chen has always been amazing, but the growth even since Nationals in January is incredible. Hopefully he will be a good fit for Rippon, and honestly, Chen should be a good training mate for Adam, as crazy as it seems considering he's 4'9" and 13 years old, his scores indicate he is "competition" for Adam, so they should push each other to work hard and improve as well as learn from one another.
^^ Yes, it should be a great training environment for Adam to be in. Nathan is astonishing, particularly his mental focus and his prodigious talent. Still, Nathan is a junior (albeit ahead of his peers in many ways) and he still has a lot to learn which will come with experience.
I'm sure Nathan can learn just as much or more from Adam, as Adam can learn from Nathan. As far as "competition," I think Adam has more than enough of that already in the senior international ranks. I don't think Nathan is Adam's competition necessarily, especially not at this stage. Altho' of course they can spur each other on in their training environment.
I didn't know that either.
Why he didn't refer the doctor to Ando or Leonova?
Doubt doctor could have helped Ando or Leonova since their problems with musicality and artistry are not b/c they can't hear.
The reference didn't say, but Adam must have been a baby when the operation took place. I suppose few people in skating know about this either. In any case, had the operation not been successful, Adam would still have the same artistic sensibilities/ abilities, and he may even still have been able to skate (I believe deaf individuals can feel the vibrations from music). So glad tho' that the operation was successful.
I don't think it is really about the ice or the building and, frankly, Artunian did not improve Kwan's results any. Of course, she was already beginning her physical decline by the time she went to him, but my recollection is that her skating became not only less consistent but also less compelling.
I'm trying to remember who else tried Artunian mid-career and can't think of anyone who did improve under him. I wonder how much this move is motivated by the promise of Carroll as a consulting coach.
That's ridiculous. Kwan's jumps were huge in 2004 and were probably her best ones in quality. Her spins too. That injury was the cause of why she had to water down her programs (jumps, spins, choreography) and her inconsistency post 2003. Artunian helped her plenty.
Buttle and Asada both improved their jumps and won a world title while under Artunian.
ETA: Asada 2007 GPF free skate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYJ_mG6Qvno
Buttle 2008 Worlds free skate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypNSQb9heLA
...and Alexander Abt.
Well, pardon your "recollection"!!! Guess you must have been a fly on the ice that got squashed.
Hmmm, I seem to be accessing a strong "recall" that Kwan did not actually seek out Rafael in order to "improve her results." Obviously, no one will likely be touching the Kween's "results" in figure skating for a long time to come. D**n, if Michelle Kwan was "beginning her physical decline" when she teamed up with Rafael, she must have been on steroids during this iconic performance:
Ha ha, why not try leading a charge to take her titles away. Yeah right, "less consistent but also less compelling." Faulty "recollection" that! IMHO, it's more that Michelle Kwan never rested on her laurels and never gave up the fight to be the best she could be. Her life and career might be a lesson you could learn something from, if you weren't so busy "recollecting." BTW, for someone in "physical decline" MK looks pretty spectacular to me both now and then! I'm sure her fiance agrees.
Yep, it's never simply the "ice or the building," it's the coaching expertise and the hard work that all the skaters put in. Boy that Jeffrey Buttle, what a forgettable slacker! Sasha Abt
Props and good luck to Rafael Arutunian, and to everyone training and coaching at Lake Arrowhead!
Kwan's jumps became higher and more beauteous with Rafael, IMO. Mao had her best results with Rafael. Jeff's jumps improved with Rafael. Alexander Abt was at his best with Rafael. I think Rafael may be really good for Adam.
Wishing Adam good luck with this new venture.
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