Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by sk9tingfan, Apr 1, 2011.
Orser could be the worst coach in the world and he would still have been an Olympic gold medalist's coach, not to mention a double silver medalist himself, and well loved in the skating community. If he ends up not having a big coaching career, I'm sure he'll be fine, as he wasn't looking for one when Yuna and her mother showed up. Anyway, Adam's statement was very gracious, and I hope things work out for him. I don't want him to be one of those skaters who gets constant if-onlys and might-have-beens.
Really? FOA, I am not sure what you mean by "Bestest". Best among the best coaches perhaps? No one is putting any pressure on Christina. She was one pumped up lady ready to work her butt off last time I read her interviews and I hope she doesn't go through a coach change since transition takes a lot of costly effort. It is Brian who probably feels pressure because he couldn't have missed critics of his coaching ability doubting how much contribution he actually made toward Yuna's win at the Olympics given that Yuna was already a star with all her technicality (Brian repeatedly acknowledged that she was already technically complete before he became her coach) when she picked him as his coach. Now Adam does not have a consistent 3A after having been coached by Brian for two years, he dropped Brian and now seeks a full technical assistance from his former assistant coach. That surely doesn't send a rosy signal to those outside the club about how Adam perceives of Brian's coaching ability. Now Christina has been under Brian's tutelage for a while, but still no sign of significant improvement on her 3 Lutz and jump consistency. If he wants to be taken seriously as a technical coach to his critics, he should be able to demonstrate his ability to guide a skater to making a significant technical improvement on his/her weak skills, and I haven't seen him accomplishing that so far.
You talk like you know a lot about how relationships between skaters and coaches work. What you actually say shows that you really don't know much about it at all. There are many coaches who get along just fine with their former students and with their former student's new coach. Until you have some reliable information (and not just speculation that you are pulling out of your *ss) about Orser and Rippon's feelings toward each other, maybe you should just leave this topic alone.
And this is a novella you pulled out of your a*s. Where did you get the information that backs your speculation? I am just following the herd. Look, if a bit of speculating from others gets to you so much, perhaps you should stop reading the posts and leave the thread.
"Following the herd" that blindly believes everything Camp Yu-Na said about Orser and inferring from that (alleged) scenario that Orser is mean to all his skaters and a terrible coach, hence Rippon leaving him as well
In case you haven't noticed, Rippon is not Yu-na, and the fact that Yu-na left Orser means that....Yu-na left Orser. Nothing more, nothing less. The *factual* information that I'm basing my suggestions on is that many coaches and skaters break up with no bad feelings, and there certainly wasn't any exodus of skaters from the Cricket Club once Yu-na took her single tear down to LA. Both these facts seem to have escaped you, but then they wouldn't help you paint Orser as the villain you think he is.
Well given both parties belong to IMG, it is hardly surprising the PR side would work out much more smoothly this time round. (Although lack of kind words or best wishes from Brian's side would seem to indicate something else.)
Adam is a young gifted skater with wonderful potentials, and I am glad he is courageous enough to take new directions to try to fix whatever that is not working.
Best luck Adam, I hope to see you next year represent the US along with Jeremy. (& please grow back your gorgeous magic golden curls, love them to bits!)
I agree. And Adam's hair at 4CC was the real tragedy of this season, imo.
I have a feeling that Rippon might be headed to another club and coach soon, regardless of how the split went. It would be better for him to have a change of scene.
Speaking of Gao, given her growth spurt, I think she actually had a decent season, though it was not up to the expectations of many. She could have done better at JWC, had she had a better warm-up before the final skate. She took a couple of really hard falls during the warm-up, and looked like it knocked the wind out of her and she was the first to skate in the final group. She seems to be in rapport with Orser, has big jumps, and when she get her axels stabilized she would be a contender for US title and Worlds podium for many seasons to come. But thats if she overcome further growth spurt. Judging from her upper and lower body proportion, she seems still growing.
No matter what you want to call them, they are the fans. Be prepared to see more and more after each season, as you would expect the same with your favorite skaters. Isnt it great?
I agree with this and hope she stays with Orser at least through next season when she finally makes her senior debut. Also, it's possible that Christina might just be very long legged naturally. Yuna's lower body is much longer than her upper body, and she stopped growing a while ago.
I saw this a while ago and now a post at GSF brought my attention back to this: Adam said in an interview w/ Universal Sports that he called Ghislain Briand after his LP at 4CC 2011 and Ghislain talked to Adam about his skate and gave him words of encouragement. Taking it together with the interaction between Brian and Adam seen at the K&C zone, Adam's decision of leaving Brian for Ghislain makes sense to me now.
I hear ya. I loved Adam's curly hair.
Wasn't it you who talked like you know a lot about what happened to YuNa and Brian?
I remember how you tried to paint YuNa as the bad girl you think she is.
Oh, I thought this title was owned by Robin
Hmmm! I thought the reigning Olympic men's gold medalist was Frank's skater! In fact Lysacek represents Frank's FIRST--and only--Olympic gold medalist.....Hardly a career gone kaput!!!
They were being sarcastic.
No, last time I checked "follow the herd" it has different meanings depending on a given context and what I meant was I follow what others do here, which is to speculate based on available information. You might want to check your dictionary or read more books before you throw a cheap shot.
I don't know where to start but let me try. You said "*factual* information that I'm basing my suggestions on is that many coaches and skaters break up with no bad feelings." How in the world do you know for *fact* that the general *impression* you have, which you call *fact* but it isn't, about coach-skater breakups applies to the breakup between Orser and Adam? How do you know many breakups between coaches and top skaters are done with no bad feelings? Did you take surveys, or are you basing it naively on what they say in public? The way I see it is that you will very rarely find out what truly caused breakups unless you are in it. Can you even see what you said is based on your gut feeling and not on a fact? And yes, I can distinguish Kim from Rippon.
You are speculating as much as I am and in a way many who posted here are doing the same. Like I said, you might not want to read posts here if a bit of speculating from others bother you so much. And if I remember correctly, and also as lakewood pointed out, you were a master of speculation when Orser and Kim parted ways.
Following the herd is hardly something positive.
In Norwegian the expression is "a herd of sheep" meaning people who do not think for themselves at all and are known as highly unintelligent.
Same meaning in English. I've never heard "following the heard" used as a positive.
Or for it to be self-acknowledged.
At Worlds in LA, he tried to cut in front of a long line at the souvenir shop (I was next in line). When the clerk corrected him & sent him back, he berated her about the lack of organization in the store even though everyone else seemed to be able to get in line. I thought that was super tacky of him.
You might want to follow your own advice; it seems that when others who don't "follow the herd" speculate, it bothers you a great deal.
From following Brian Orser's career, it is no secret that he cares intensely for skating, his own, and now those of his students. He is often filmed at the boards going through the program with his skaters, and his emotions mirror that of his skaters. It is possible that intensity is something Adam could not handle. In the infamous K&C scene, Orser was likely mirroring the great disappointment Rippon felt himself, and it was probably too difficult for Rippon to handle that in the K&C. He likely needs someone more low-key and there's nothing wrong with that.
As an amateur skater, Orser's emotions often made him a wonderful artistic skater, one of the best, but it could also conflict with his skating. I'm wondering if it is the same with coaching. He would want the best for his students, as much as he wanted it when he was skating, and while that push to excellence is inspiring, it may also be too overwhelming if you're going through a rough patch as Rippon may be experiencing.
As a coach with only 4 years of coaching behind him, it's still a learning curve for Brian as well. I wish all skaters involved, from Rippon, to Christina, to YuNa the best in their careers, and I also wish Brian the best of luck with his coaching. His skating gave me very many memorable moments, especially at the Calgary Olympics, and I believe he will get better and better at all aspects of coaching.
Thanks for the link I just got around to re-watching it. How did I miss that Adam met with Lysacek after the SP and went outside to call Briand in Toronto after the LP at Nationals? He didn't mention Orser once in the interview? This to me is a skater with an absent coach. I like Orser, I defended him giving him the benefit of the doubt- even feeling sorry for him when Yuna left. I get the impression that being discharged by Yuna (for whatever reason-not taking sides) had a really big impact on him.
After re-watching some of the Kiss and Cry facial expressions of Orser from this season with Rippon I cringe how completely absent he was as a coach and looked so uncomfortable like he was embarrassed. It is uncomfortable to watch --- I'd rather see a coach over the top waving etc (no offense Robin W.) than look embarrassed to be there. That kind of moody, emotional coach has got to takes its toll on a skater.
That said I don't think how a coach acts in the K&C reveals what kind of skill he/she has, I think it just gives a glimpse to their state of mind. I am sad to see Orser play the role of the victim so much this season.
Maybe the loss of another student will give him the he needs!
But wasn't David Wilson actually responsible for the choreographies? I really loved both Adam's programs this season, I think they suited him very well, he is a wonderful lyrical skater. Just my two cents.
I liked them too. Maybe he will keep one of them for next season? He lists choreographers as David Wilson, Sebastien Britten.
David Wilson collaborated with Sebastien Britten on Rippon's SP and Wilson choreographed his FS. I would expect Rippon to have two new programs next season.
Where can I buy a pair of the rose-tinted glasses you're wearing? Rippon's disappointment took the form of bewilderment. Orser's disappointment took the form of cold annoyance. It was not a mirror. They looked like opposites in the way they handled it.
This has nothing to do with my regard for Orser as a skater or his technical ability as a coach. He did a great job with Yu-Na Kim. And as a competitor, he is an Olympic Gold medalist in my book. The apologetics are getting tiresome, though. Oh Adam, he just "can't handle" the "intensity." Oh Adam, he's switched coaches so many times, he's just a fickle boy...
Brian was a person who knew more than anybody how Korea Skating Federation is incompetent or sucks(lol).
Pure speculation or sarcasm on your part, I hope.
Simple economics. No medals no money. How is he going to pay for coaching and ice time? No one is going to give it for free to a 5th place finisher.
I assume Briand is teaching for free and Orser is now donating ice for old times sake? I don't think any coach "gives it for free"
But you may have a point that a lesser known coach may be less????
Given the context of the entire post, definitely sarcasm.
I'd like some of your ESP, and that of the others in this thread so I can be so certain of everyone's feelings and motives in the circumstances. I don't pretend to know the reasons behind the coaching change. Was there tension in the Kiss 'N Cry at US Nationals and 4CC? Yes, absolutely. Was it "annoyance", "disappointment" or something else. I don't know and neither do you or anyone else who has speculated about it here. All I know is that the announcement of the coaching change wasn't all that surprising.
Of course, those just "following the herd" want to believe that Brian is a horrible person and skaters are fleeing for their lives. Or that Adam will soon be driven out of the Cricket Club.
I will say this. Coaching etiquette would dictate that Adam's new coach could not have taken on Adam as a student without first discussing this Brian Orser, who, as head coach, is also his boss. Would you risk offending your boss in this way?
And again, I reiterate, the lack of comment from Orser is the norm, not the exception, as proven by the USFSA press releases, links to which were posted up thread.
Brian Orser did not become one of the most respected athletes in figure skating because he's a jerk and a nasty human being, regardless of what has been posted here. I've had the opportunity of watching his behaviour at competitions for years, and have never seen him be anything but gracious to everyone around him. Of course anyone can have a bad day.
I'm just getting a little tired of those who have no real knowledge of any of the circumstances of this coaching change using this as yet another excuse to trash Orser based on their own animosity.
My original quote was that I think that Adam needs a reliable 3A and quad to be competitive on the senior level as far as medals are concerned, and that he cannot afford to go another season without them and stay in the game.
As 2 time junior world champion he came to the senior level greatly hyped. However, in 2 seasons he has yet to medal. He is not a teenager and I assume his family cannot support him indefinitely. His present training situation is not working for whatever reason so he should change.
Skating is expensive and skaters need to make money (most families cannot support them indefinitely). And yes, if you are a star rinks do give you free ice time in exchange for the publicity your presence brings, and you do get appearance fees for shows, exhibitions, and ISU competitions. And yes coaches will line up to take you if they think you will enhance their reputations and make them money through your appearance fees.
I think he has medaled each year in the Grand Prix's??? I know he won a bronze medal at Skate Canada and won 4cc last year, and was 5th or 6th at his first WC. That is far better than most as a junior entering the senior ranks. I think
I completely agree about your take an the 3A.
I don't know how skater's pay for lessons and ice fees but I highly doubt that at this level saving a few dollars an hour on lessons makes a difference.
BTW...I am not Canadian yet I felt sorry for Orser over the Yuna issue. I always felt it was a communication issue that got out of hand. I supported him and felt he was getting a lot of criticism. But now? I don't know what to think.
No one can argue that Orser was a great athlete who seemed humble and gracious when he was a competitor. That is who he was and not necessarily who he is today.
Just because someone did something doesn't mean they can teach it. He had a team helping him with Yuna. I think if that team was stil working together Rippon wouldn't of had to file a press release and hire a coach he stands a few feet from everyday.
You're thinking too hard, IMO.
Really, there is nothing remotely scandalous about what just happened. It happens all the time. In rinks all over the world with all levels of coaches and students. Student has disappointing season and decides to make a change. Some change everything -- rinks, cities, even countries. Some just change one or two things -- choreographer, shuffling the coaches in their team, brining new blood into the team.
Except... this happens all. the. time. This is how assistants move up to become standalone coaches, for one thing. Plus, in some rinks, a group of people work together. For some students, one is the head coach but for another student, another is the head coach. Changing who the head coach is, in this situations, is *really* not a big deal.
What it comes down to is that Adam wants a coach he is already working with to take a more active role in his training. It's hardly anything have to generated this much
And I'm just at the idea that Brian Orser can't teach someone how to jump because one of his students has an inconsistent 3Z. Because, you know, that jump hardly ever troubles the male figure skaters of other coaches. The jump is hard and it's one that many skaters *never* master. No matter who their coach is.
Did the poster mean he had failed to medal at Nationals on the senior level? Totally understandable in 2010, what did Evan, Johnny and Jeremy all competing. Very disappointing in 2011. In the SP he fell on the Rippon lutz right by us and we were totally Hoping the coaching change is a good one for Adam.
you are correct DL in that typically a press release that is sent by the party would only include their own information, it would not be deemed appropriate to quote the other party unless it was a joint press release which usually doesn't happen in these types of situations.
With regards to Adam, sometimes when skating is not improving you have to change you situation, not necessarily anybody's fault
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