A question about Ice-Dancing.

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by FSWer, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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    Say,we know that each part of Ice-Dance,just like any other Discipline is worth a curtain % of the final score. But does anyone know why Ice-Dance is (and how it got) devided into 3-4 parts (the Origanal,Composery (sorry can't spell that without looking at it),Short,and Free? Rather then just a Short/Long Program? Thanks.
     
  2. Clarice

    Clarice Active Member

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    I don't know the whole history of it, but the rules of ice dance have evolved over the years just like the other disciplines. Once upon a time, Free Skating had just two parts - Figures and Free Skate. Then it had three - figures, short program, and long program. Now it has two again - short program and long program. Ice Dance used to have three parts - compulsories, the original dance (this part kept changing - somebody else can fill in all the things that happened here better than I can), and free dance. Now it only has two - the short dance (which is part compulsory and part original dance) and the free dance. Why? I don't know. The rules keep getting changed to reflect what the rule makers think are the changing needs of the sport. Maybe somebody else will explain this better and in more detail.
     
  3. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

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    I'm not an expert on all the history, but I agree ice dance has just been a little slower to evolve than singles. And I think the reason for that is that compulsory dances really are the essence and roots of ice dance. For Novice and under, competitions still are 2 compulsory dances followed by a free dance. Only for Junior and Senior did the system change to short dance and free dance this year. Compulsory dances force teams to focus on the basics, the details like edges and stroking, posture, flow, pattern, style of dance. All teams skate to the same dances, with the same pattern and music choices. There are no technical specialists - just judges rating teams according to how well they skated the dance in terms of right steps, placement of pattern on the ice, size of the pattern, interpretation of the style of the dance, posture and holds, flow, etc. It's always been a great tool to compare basic skills between teams. If you watch the compulsory dances of Delobel and Schoenfelder, or Virtue and Moir, you can see the quality of the basic skating skills that serve as foundation for all the rest of their skating. The tricks come out of their solid skating, not instead of solid skating.

    But compulsory dances have always been best enjoyed by the die-hard fans of the sport. It's a special kind of love to watch 20 to 30 teams skate exactly the same thing, and sometime two times over for 2 different dances. It's not understood by the casual fan, was open to controversy without technical specialists, and did not fit well into competition schedules. It was almost never televised. So the short dance was the compromise. Lower levels still rely on the traditional compulsory dances, as these are developmental tools. For Junior, teams are required to skate 2 patterns of the Viennese Waltz this year, along with twizzles, a lift, and non-touching midline step sequence. Senior level is required to skate 1 pattern of the Golden Waltz, which is judged in 2 segments. Technical specialists call the levels of the patterns, ensuring the right steps are done at the right time, along with the rest of the elements. Judges deterimine how well the patterns and elements have been skated.

    The original dance has undergone an evolution over time. It was once more like a pattern dance where teams would be required to skate to a particular dance style, but could choose their own choreography completely. More recently, it has simply been just like the free dance, only smaller, with only a very broad theme (this year it was to be music of the 50's, 60's and 70's). The short dance borrows the idea of a required pattern and allowing for unique choreography and music, but still requires the compulsory dance component.

    After almost a season of the short dance, I think it has been positive. I think there is some tweaking required. I think we have learned that mashing up music styles doesn't really work - a tango isn't a waltz, and doesn't lend itself well to continuity in the program. It's just looks strange. Just let the waltz be a waltz. There's time for a tango another year. I also think the rules around the step sequence should be relaxed. I don't understand the insistence on non-touching midline step. I think teams should be able to do serpentine step, circle step, whatever makes sense with the music. Teams have had to adjust to being very precise on their compulsory dance patterns, which has been a big challenge for some. And technical specialists have had to learn how to look for the right patterns, and to call appropriately. Some are still working on this. All in all, however, I think the change has been positive. Short dance gives the original dance real purpose, separating from the free dance. It forces teams to not abandon work on the basics of ice dance. And with a few tweaks, short dance will be more accessible to the general public while meeting the needs of competition organizers.
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Dance was also the last discipline to become an ISU championship event:

    1952 for Worlds -- 1896 for Men/Singles (Madge Syers won silver in 1902), 1906 for Ladies as a separate discipline, 1908 for Pairs
    1954 for Europeans -- 1891 for Men and maybe Singles, although there were no women medalists, 1930 for Ladies and Pairs.
    1976 for Olympics -- 1908 for Ladies, Men, Pairs
     
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  5. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    To add to what NorthernDancer said:

    -At the very lowest levels of competition, there are only compulsory dances; no Free Dance is performed

    -The "original" dance started out as an OSP - Original Set Pattern dance. This was a compulsory dance that the skaters made up and it's where new compulsory dances came from. It differs from the Original Dance in that a pattern has to be set on the ice and then *repeated* two more times. The Golden Waltz was created by Klimova/Ponomarenko as their OSP and later was turned into a CD by the ISU, for example.

    -Ice dance originated as a social thing. It was like going to a dance club but you went to the rink/frozen lake/etc. and you skated compulsory dances with whomever showed up. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that this is part of why it was such a late addition to Worlds, Euros, Olympics. Also, it was a big deal in North American more so than some other parts of the world. Yes, NA used to be king of Ice Dance back in the day.

    -The social ice dance circuit is still very much alive in North America and any place that has a critical mass of dancers will have social dance sessions. The freestyle skaters often end up exposed to the compulsories that way and it's not unusual to see a bunch of kids following the adults doing the easier CDs when that music gets played in a regular freestyle session. (It's how we assimilate them. Bwahahaha.) This is why I think removing the CDs from the competition structure will not kill them; there will also be people for whom ice dance is about socializing and what some elite skaters do at championships won't change that.
     
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  6. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    And Great Britain. Many of the compulsories still used today were invented in Britain in the 1930s.

    British dance teams won many of the world medals in the 1950s and 60s -- they were pretty much the dominant power in ice dance competition until the Soviets took over in the 1970s.
     
  7. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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    Why is it set up like that though for Dance? Rathe then just a Short/Long now like the others?
     
  8. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

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    It is set up like a short/long. It's a Short Dance and a Free Dance. The same thing basically as a Short Program and Long Program. Except with dance, there is a real purpose/definitive difference to the Short Dance, unlike the Short Program with singles skating, which is basically just a mini long program.

    Last year, there were 3 components. This year, there are 2 components, with the compulsory dance being amalgamated into the short dance.

    And thanks for the history lesson in the evolution of ice dance, everyone! :)Further explains all the crying over losing the compulsory dance. Social dance isn't something I'm all that familiar with in Canada.
     
  9. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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    So we now just have the Origanal Dance,Short and Long?
     
  10. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    No more "Original Dance."

    Now it's just "Short Dance" and "Free Dance." Two phases.
     
  11. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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    Great!!!
     
  12. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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    I just saw some photos for 2010,and they had an Origanal Dance along with the Short and Long. Why?
     
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If they were from the second half of last season (2009-2010), then there was still three phases for dance: Compulsory Dance, Original Dance, and Free Dance.

    If they were from this season (2010-2011, starting in August) it's likely that the photos were given the wrong caption.
     
  14. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    2009-2010 season (last season) was the last year of Compulsory Dance, Original Dance.

    2010-2011 season (this season) is the first year of Short Dance.

    So competitions from last year, winter and spring 2010, had an Original Dance.

    Competitions from this year, summer and fall 2010, have a Short Dance.

    You will not find Original Dance and Short Dance in the same competition.
     
  15. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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  16. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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  17. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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    There's more on the next page of the link.
     
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    FSWer, all those photo galleries you linked to (except for the one labeled "2010 SA Ladies Practice; Thursday, 2010-11-11" which is from Skate America this past November) are from 2010 US Nationals when there were still 3 phases for Junior/Senior Dance: Compulsory Dance (CD), Original Dance (OD) and Free Dance (FD).

    Only Junior and Senior dance teams perform the new Short Dance in competition. This season, the "Pattern Dance" is what used to be known as the Compulsory Dance, and 2 different pattern dances (abbreviated P1 and P2) are skated in the 3 levels below Senior/Junior -- Novice, Intermediate and Juvenile -- along with the Free Dance.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  19. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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    So they recently just changed it?
     
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Yes, these dance changes are new this season.

    So, to recap the dances performed in US qualifying & National competition starting this season (2010-2011):
    Senior: Short Dance & Free Dance
    Junior: Short Dance & Free Dance
    Novice: 2 Pattern Dances and 1 Free Dance
    Intermediate: 2 Pattern Dances and 1 Free Dance
    Juvenile: 2 Pattern Dances and 1 Free Dance