6.0 vs IJS as a skater

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by julianaqtpi, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. julianaqtpi

    julianaqtpi New Member

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    (I'm not sure if this topic should be here or in the Trash Can, so if you could also tell me that, then I'll repost it there if needed.)

    I know there are probably 50 other topics about IJS vs 6.0, but I want everyone's ideas as a skater: Do you like being scored with IJS or with 6.0 better?

    I'm competing IJS for the first time in two weeks, and I've only ever been scored with 6.0 before. I don't like how biased 6.0 can be. One time I accidentally stepped on a judge's foot with my skates on (I had guards on, and I was only 10 years old, I weighed less than 60 lbs then), and ever since then, which was 5 years ago, not only does this judge give me dirty looks, but she never once has placed me first in an event. I hate how biased the judges can be with 6.0, and in my somewhat small skating community, the judges I have for one competition are the ones that have tested me since I was testing pre-preliminary freeskate, and the ones that I've had for nearly every competition for 6 1/2 years!

    So, I think I'll like competing IJS because it's harder for one judge to be biased against you. I don't know yet though. So what are your opinions, do you like being scored with IJS or 6.0 better? Pros and cons to each? Thanks!
     
  2. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I don't like 6.0. My level is not scored in IJS in the US, and internationally we seem to score in the single digits with the best getting 12-20 points. Many of the things I do wouldn't count- half jumps, and most sit spins won't get called as such.

    Still, I know where the points come from.

    In 6.0- no idea. Is it better to do a toe loop that isn't cheated, or a crappy flip? Can you do a forward scratch spin and a forward back spin in the same program- most 6.0 judges say yes, but in an IJS mindset, it isn't allowed. But 6.0 doesn't spell it out!

    I like IJS because I know where the points come from, and I can see why competitors beat me. 6.0 is a TOTAL mystery. Especially when you get protocols that have you first and eighth in the same program. Uh- what?
     
  3. julianaqtpi

    julianaqtpi New Member

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    I agree, with 6.0, you can't tell what it is that got you last place, which is another reason I think I'll like IJS- you see if you need to work on PCS or on technical.
     
  4. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    As a judge it is great. You get feedback on your own judging performance.

    Most skaters I know love it for the feedback they get from their protocols. Which means they can see why they might have received a lower or higher GOE. Identifying that jumps are underrotated or off the wrong edges gives them pointers on what they need to improve on. And most are pretty happy when they get positive GOEs because they know they are doing something right.
     
  5. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I prefer 6.0. Putting a program together for the first time under CoP is fustrating, as I dont feel that I am showcasing my best elements, and adding in positions that aren't perfect to get points. sigh.
     
  6. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    If you have never been judged under IJS then don't worry about levels. Just aim for good GOEs and a clean performance.

    Seriously I don't know why skaters stress out so much about levels. I know here they have taken out levels for many of the lower levels to encourage skaters to do good quality elements. Because how can you aim for levels when you don't have good basics?
     
  7. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    IJS. But it's still annoying when they use the PCS or GOE unfairly to put skaters where they want them.... trying to 6.0 the new system.
     
  8. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the idea, but, I would want the maximum amount of points possible, so adding the extra little things are annoying... also, it makes me sad to not be able to have a spiral sequence and a step sequence in the sp.

    I think skaters need to learn the things required at lower levels also though. It seems that Australian skaters do suffer a bit in the spins department.
     
  9. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    So what is the difference then? 6.0 is totally a placement system. We still use it here for judging beginning skaters because we don't have an IJS version for the beginning skaters. You rate the skaters in order of which ones you think are best. At least under IJS it is a lot more transparent than what it would be under 6.0 and there is a lot more objectivity about it.

    I don't know. The problems I see with lower level skaters are mainly in the flying spins but that is normal for developing skaters and totally expected. I don't think generally the standard of Australian spinning is that bad.

    But as for worrying about getting points, at the end of the day it should be about your own personal performance and how you feel on the ice. If you haven't skated under IJS before I would be more concerned with what GOEs you will get for elements because that is going to give you better feedback than levels. Because whilst you might get a higher level on an element, at the end of the day if it isn't good quality, the level is going to be irrelevant because they judges will take off on the GOE.

    I do think many skaters get so tied up with systems they forget the reasons why they started skating. And that is for the feeling it gives them and why they enjoy it so much.
     
  10. julianaqtpi

    julianaqtpi New Member

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    Not only Australians, a lot of skaters in the US have amazing jumps and mediocre spins, I'm just talking about preliminary, pre-juvenile, juvenile level skaters. I feel like my spins are so basic compared to my jumps, like I can't get 8 revolutions on a camel spin without falling over, and I can't do a layback without falling on my head, and so on. I kind of wish that our current generation of coaches (for lack of better words) would put more emphasis on excellent spins, I feel a lot of skaters at lower levels, and some higher levels, need better spins.
     
  11. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I definitely agree with focusing on getting a good GOE that struggling for the higher level... I often find my self practising a layback that goes into a hideous beilman, and I've wondered if it would be better to do a perfect layback in just the classic position, then into a side lean etc.
     
  12. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Would you rather have level 1 or 2 with 0 or positive GOE, or level 2 or 3 with negative GOE?

    What other feature(s) can you do? Remember that if you only do one feature, it's still level 1, so you don't gain any points for the elements unless it enhances the GOE. If it lowers the GOE don't do it.

    If it's a choice between Biellmann or side lean because you can't do both, then do the one you do better.

    No reason not to practice all your options in hopes of perfecting and eventually adding more features for future competitions. But you're better off including now only the features you can do well now.
     
  13. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I would want the one which looks the nicest... but I would also want the maximum score possible, because I don't believe in entering a competition unless you intend to win/be competitive.

    I personally find more beillmann positions hideous, however, if doing one is the difference in score, then one becomes tempted to perform a move that they dont personally like, just for the points.

    I would only feel comfortable putting in elements that are good.
     
  14. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    If you check ISU Communication 1611 it will tell you what the various levels of elements are worth as a base and then how much gets taken off the base when it goes into a negative GOE.

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db/isu_front/comms.php?all=1

    The other risk you run, unless you are absolutely certain that your spin is a good one and the transitions to achieve the levels work, then you may not achieve the levels and because the spin is messy and transitions don't work, you will get marked down by the judges. So you will end up not getting the levels you want or good GOEs. And if you totally stuff it up you won't get any credit for the spin at all. I have heard so many skaters or coaches complain that their spin should have got a particular level when in fact they just didn't fulfill the requirements.

    As for entering a competition with the intention of winning, that is fine but the reality is there is only ever going to be one winner. The goal should always be to go for a personal best and be satisfied with your performance. If you win then that is the cherry on top.
     
  15. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    The point is that the Biellmann position is one feature. Changing between sideways and backward is one feature.

    If those are the only two features you can do, you have to do both to get level 2.

    If you can do only one of those features, you'll still get level 1. One feature doesn't get you a higher level, regardless of which feature it is. Biellmann itself does not automatically earn more points -- it contributes the same to earning higher levels as any other feature.

    If you can do both of those features and a third feature (e.g., 8 revolutions in one position, or hold another difficult position such as haircutter for >2 revs before going to the Biellmann), then you can get level 3.

    If you can do either the Biellmann or the sideways but not both and also a third feature, then you can get level 2 but you'd have to choose whether to do the Biellmann or the sideways.

    So once you figure out which two features you can do together, or whether you're capable of doing three features in the same spin, then you have to decide which combination of features is going to increase the level without decreasing the GOE.

    What you do NOT want to do is add only one feature that will reduce the quality, since one feature will not give you a higher level. You'd get more points by leaving it out.

    Nor do you want to add two features if you can't do them both well enough to get credit for both, as Aussie Willy says, because then you will not get the level you're aiming for and you would also lose GOE. You'd get more points by leaving them out.

    It's only a difference in score if you get credit for it AND also get credit for at least one other feature AND you don't lose more than grade of GOE. So you have to evaluate how well you typically do each of the features to decide whether adding the feature is likely to increase or decrease your point total.

    Maybe you already understand this completely, but just to reiterate for anyone who isn't familiar with the rules and just thinks that Biellmann automatically means more points:

    Biellmann without any other feature, or Biellmann held for less than 2 revolutions will NOT gain more points because it will not raise the level. If it looks bad or slows down the spin or loses the center it will LOSE total points on the spin, guaranteed.

    Biellmann for at least 2 revs plus at least one other feature will RAISE the level. But if it looks bad or slows down the spin or loses the center you might lose more in GOE than you gain in base value.

    Practice all your features, evaluate your typical quality, and then choose wisely.
     
  16. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    i can do lay back, side lean, hair cutter, beillman.

    my point it, is annoys me to do all the extra positions, becuause i think the classic layback is prettier, but, alas, it would be foolish to miss out on points.


    I dont understand the "no feedback" argument for 6.0... I used to get feedback after each competition from judges about what could be improved etc.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  17. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    But that is only if the judges take the time to talk to you about it.
    And, because there is no firm "your flip had an edge call" in the score, it is difficult to know what to fix, because it may not be an issue for the next judge. Some judges may prefer easier, but clean jumps, others may prefer harder, but maybe slightly imperfect jumps. 6.0 doesn't quantify these things. So unless you are just looking for "overall" improvement (always a good thing), the feedback you get from one judge in 6.0 may not apply to the next competition if the judges are different. In IJS, the levels and point values are set, even the GOE bullets are defined.
     
  18. sk8girl

    sk8girl Member

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    Then you've been very VERY fortunate. Over 5 or 6 years competing under 6.0(a total of probably 25-30 competitions), I only had the opportunity to get feedback from a judge ONE time! (And even that wasn't very useful, because they just spoke very generally ('try to improve your speed") (duh!) - they didn't break down each element or give me any specific suggestions on particular elements.)

    I vastly prefer skating under IJS, because of the detailed feedback you get. You can look at your details AND your competitors' details and see *exactly* where you gained and lost points and *exactly* what you need to improve to place better next time.
     
  19. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    As an adult skater, I used to think this too. Until I quickly learned that the judges were VERY stingy about giving any GEO at all on something an adult skater did. So now the adults go for the levels. Which sucks, IMO, because I'd rather do a pretty spin with fewer positions than twist my 40 year old body into a bunch of positions I can't do as well just to get points.
     
  20. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Having judged many adult skaters, I have never really given anything higher than a +1 (maybe a +2 for an ex-competitive skater who still maintained their skating ability, particularly the spins). I think if an adult is getting base they are doing pretty well.
     
  21. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    Is this because the skaters haven't been very good, or you just dont give +3s?

    if the latter is the case, would it not be better to go for for the higher level, if all you are going to get is a +2 max?


    Sk8girl: It is sad to hear that. i competed undoer 6.0 for about 6 years also, and feedback was the norm... ie hold that position longer, faster spin, under rotation etc.
     
  22. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Most elite skaters don't get +3s -- that score is reserved for extreme excellence. It's not a question of the level of the skater, but the quality of the element.

    But if you're competing in an adult competition, your competitors will be other adults of approximately similar skill level. They're not likely to get any +3s either. All you need to win is to get higher scores than the others in your event.

    So what's the best way you can do that, with your specific skills? Higher levels are one route, if you can get credit for all the features you try and expect at least 0 GOE. Higher GOEs are another route if you can earn several bullet points for quality.

    If your competitors are trying level 4 laybacks and losing points because they don't get credit for all the variations and/or rack up negative GOEs, then you might get more points for a level 1 layback if you have a strong position and a solid center and good speed and maybe twice as many revolutions as required for your level -- that could be level 2 right there. IF you can really do it that well. If your simple layback is that good and your complicated layback is not so good, and your competitors are not so good at whatever they try, you can outpoint them by sticking with what you do best.

    But if you think the quality is pretty similar whether you add features or not, then you'll get more points by adding the features.

    It all depends on what you do best. We can't know without seeing your spins.
     
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Skaters have to earn +3s by doing something exceptional. I have very rarely seen that. The Patrick Chans and Virtue & Moirs earn +3.

    Most skaters are around base value for elements that are done without something to really deduct for.

    But as for going for the higher level, if it is going to end up being a poorly done element, then you may not necessarily get more points for it.
     
  24. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Interesting last night I attended a seminar with an international judge and the topic of strategy came up (because a lot of coaches attended).

    She said you really need to consider the risk you take when planning your elements. Because at the end of the day the judges don't judge what the skater wants to do but what they see the skater do. And you should check the Scale of Values (in ISU Communication 1611) and work out what the risk is worth.

    So for example:

    Skater does a change foot combination spin (CCoSp)

    If the spin was given a level 1 by the tech panel and the judges gave a +1 GOE:
    Base Value = 2.0
    GOE +1 = 1.0
    Total value of spin = 3.0

    If the spin was given a level 3 by the tech panel but -2 GOE because of poor execution:
    Base Value = 3.0
    GOE -2 = -0.6
    Total value of spin = 2.4

    So if you are wanting to maximise points, then is aiming for levels the way to do it? And if what you are aiming for isn't rewarded by the Tech panel, then it could end up being called a Level 1, which with a -2 given by the judges for poor execution which means the value of your element ends up being:

    Base Value = 2.0
    GOE -2 = -0.6
    Total value of spin = 1.4

    What I am saying, for those who think that you need to increase levels to maximise points, maybe rethink this. Because it is actually all in the Scale of Values.

    A good example was a spin she showed of Kostner's, which whilst she got the levels, because she didn't have a great execution which could have resulted in negative GOEs, ended up being worth less than the base value. And that was an international skater.

    Tech panels and judges look at totally different things. Sit on both types of panels and you will see it. But at the end of the day the quality is what is going to be rewarded, not what you aim to do.
     
  25. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Julianaqtpi - Having competed under IJS for 5 years now, I definitely prefer it over 6.0. I like being able to see exactly where I gained and lost points, and what I got credit for and didn't.

    Having said that, my first IJS competition was brutal because I had not yet practiced my mistakes. Under IJS, it is extremely important to make the *right* mistakes because some mistakes are much more costly than others.

    The most important things you can do to avoid throwing away points are:
    (1) Make sure your sit spin position is always low enough (skating thigh parallel to ice) for at least 2 full revolutions. If you have a difficult variation but you rise up above parallel while doing it, you will get no credit, so you're way better off just doing the basic position.
    (2) Always hold each spin position for at least 2 full revolutions after hitting the position, and complete the required number of revolutions on each foot,
    (3) Make sure you don't repeat the same type of spin, even by mistake,
    (4) Make sure you don't repeat any jump more than the number of times allowed in your balanced program rules.
    (5) If you are doing a spiral sequence, learn how to count so that you hold each position for a 3 full seconds, even when you are full of adrenaline and counting really fast.

    More than difficult jumps and level features, the surest way to get a high technical score is to make sure you consistently fulfill the requirements of each element so that you end up with a number greater than 0 in every box.
     
  26. FSWer

    FSWer Well-Known Member

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    Were are you from? Who still uses it? I must say that I don't test or compete. But I DO believe the new system is better. As the 6.0 didn't even give Skaters a fare chance,as Judges just went be their fav.
     
  27. steve skater

    steve skater Member

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    Good points and good examples.

    But I just want to clarify that a +1 GOE for a CCoSp does not equate to +1 in points; it only results in an increase in 0.5 points. +1, +2, and, +3 GOE for (F)CCoSp are 0.5, 1.0, and 1.5 points, respectively. (-1, -2, and -3 GOE are -0.3, -0.6, and -0.9, respectively.)

    Still, in this example the CCoSp1 with +1 GOE is worth 2.5, and the CCoSp3 with -2 GOE is worth 2.4. The 0.1 difference is enough for most skaters to attempt the level 3.

    Sometimes, however, a poorly performed higher level spin trumps the cleaner level 1 spin, which (IMHO) is why we often see so many bad spins!
     
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I am not who you were addressing, but low level competitions in the United States still use 6.0.


    It is very difficult to predict what is wanted because 6.0 is often looked at through IJS eyes. The system isn't exactly what it was, and yet, it isn't clearly defined what it is anymore. It is just an ordinal system where the judges rank the skaters. In many competitions, the skaters only see the ordinals, so for example, the scores might say I got places 2, 3, 2 which makes me the second place skater. I don't know that I got a 3.2 for my score (as, of course, a 6.0 or even a 5.8 is reserved for only higher level skaters)
     
  29. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    We use it for those levels that are not covered by IJS as we don't have a system for it here.

    Sorry I read the wrong column. You are correct. However I know from a judging side, I would much rather watch a good quality spin than see something a skater clearly has trouble with and I can't give a positive mark to (even if it is only a base value).
     
  30. zaphyre14

    zaphyre14 Well-Known Member

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    USFS still uses 6.0 for all Basic Skills competitions, State Games and a lot of the smaller one-day Opens and Interclub competitions. IJS is not practical or cost-effective for these events.

    And I want to correct something right now: The judges do NOT "just go with their fav". Each judge may have an individual standard for what they're looking for but they do have standards that are based on solid technique and training. They also have required decductions for errors, which are taken.

    There's nothing "Unfair" about the 6.0 system when it's used properly - and the vast majority of judges are using it the way it's intended.

    Let's stop the wild generalizations, please.