3rd Canadian dance team in Sochi

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Mar 17, 2013.

?

Who gets 3rd spot on Olympic team for Canada in ice dancing

Poll closed Jan 11, 2014.
  1. Orford & Williams

    7.3%
  2. Asher & Hill

    2.1%
  3. Gilles & Poirier

    35.4%
  4. Paul & Islam

    55.2%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    Obviously Virtue & Moir and Weaver & Poje are locks for the first 2 spots. Who will get the 3rd spot that W&P so generously and bravely gifted to the others by toughing out skating at Worlds after a serious and very recent injury. Gilles & Poirier might be the logical favorites on paper but after a poor Worlds and continued lukewarm responses from international judges (high scores at 4CCs were all teams were scored unusually highly aside) I think they are far from a safe bet. Paul & Islam continue to make strides, yet they seem to have silly errors pop up at Nationals. Hopefully they can get atleast 1 grand prix assignment and make a mark before Nationals. Orford & Williams are on the rise and challengers for that spot, and some might hold out hope (extremely faint IMO) for Asher & Hill. Who would your early pick be.
  2. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
    Messages:
    597
    Emotionally my choice would be Paul and Islam, however, IMO, SC continues to promote and push Gilles and Poirier. I do think Paul is a superior skater, but I don't feel Piper is anywhere near his level of skating.
  3. CoralReef

    CoralReef New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    Messages:
    53
    I'll give the nod to Gilles/Poirier. Unfortunately, Orford/Williams just got knocked out of top 24 SB and I wonder at their chances of a GP assignment. I think they will have to skate against Paul/Islam this summer to decide SC spot. Paul/Islam, between the injury that plagued them a year ago and some poor skates this season, they just aren't doing themselves any favors. Ralph/Hill have not progressed. Any promising juniors moving up that could shake things up a little?
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    SC are not idiots though. Surely they have to realize at some point international judges are just not buying it no matter how much they keep promoting G&P.
  5. Alixana

    Alixana recovering Oly-holic

    Joined:
    May 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,261
    I so want Paul & Islam to stay healthy all year so that we can see them at full potential.
  6. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    761
    Pssst..That should be Ralph and Hill ... ( or Kharis and Asher )

    But my hope is for Paul and Islam.Even though I like all 3 couples ( P/I, R/H , O/W ) , I feel P/I have more of the complete package...I saw a difference in their confidence and outward expression in a short time with Krylova and Camerlengo. With another year under their belts, who knows ? I'm starting to hope now.
  7. puglover

    puglover Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    626
    I like all four couples. We are fortunate to have such depth in ice dance.
  8. sequins

    sequins New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    Hope it's P&I or R&H but think it'll probably be P&P
  9. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,317
    Besides the strong 4CC, they had a decent GP series, and they had a few issues in the FD here that without they would have been around 11-12, which is decent for their first year.

    This reminds me of last year when B&S made some technical mistakes which affected their placement, and people were immediately predicting them off podium at the following year's Russian Nationals becuase supposedly TES errors = dumped by the judges now.

    Honestly I think O&W have a better shot than P&I too.
  10. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,416
    I voted for Orford and Williams because the number zero doesn't look good beside their names.

    (but it will actually be one of the two front-runner teams).
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    They skated cleanly in the SD and were 15th so it is purely a guess they could have finished that high. From the points I guess you could say it is obvious they would have finished atleast 14th as that would have required only 2 more points, but not neccessarily higher than that (they were almost 6 points back of the 13th place team who had a way bigger error than any they had). Other teams made mistakes too as well, not just them.

    Their grand prix were somewhat decent but P&I had comparable scores this past season until Nationals. Up to now G&P get stratospheric scores at Nationals they dont anywhere near elsewhere, while others are barely above their international scores. The question is if this will continue or not.

    I am interested in seein how much O&W improve over the season though, and how many grand prix assignments each team get.
  12. intentions

    intentions New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    I am voting for Alex and Mitch.

    Perhaps the Canadian Judges will now give G/P more realistic marks than the grossly overinflated scores they have been giving them so far.

    Without the problems I think G/P would have been around 14-15 which is okay but nothing outstanding. That would have been a comparable finish to R/H at last year's worlds, and yet nationally, R/H can't cut a break against G/P. I just would like to see G/P scored as a team and not given so much credit just for Paul's far superior skating level.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  13. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,317
    Didn't Paul and Islam have mistakes in the FD at Nationals?
  14. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    Messages:
    857
    Yes. They took a nasty spill that wiped out half of their diagonal step sequence, and paid for it with their scores.

    I wouldn't have said so a few days ago, but I honestly think Paul/Islam have the best chance here. I've always felt G/P have been held up at nationals, but I suspect that their results at worlds might change that. All I can hope for is that the judging at nationals will be FAIR!! If that's the case, and P/I skate cleanly, I think they'll have the advantage. Of course, that all depends on the quality of their programs, but given the improvement that a few months at DSC has resulted in, and that fact that their material was fabulous this year (and most other years, IMO), I'm not too worried about that aspect of it.
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    Wow shocked Paul & Islam are dominating this poll. I sure hope it turns out that way.
  16. kates8

    kates8 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2004
    Messages:
    212
    It doesn't surprize me. People on these boards tend to love an underdog, but when that team gets successful, they start bashing them down.

    Why do people think that P&I would be much higher scored internationally than any other team on this list - do they have any significant history internationally that would prove this out?? G&P made a mistake in the Freedance, but other than that, they probably would have been 12th which is a great placement for the #3 Team and in their first Worlds.
  17. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    90
    I dont think the feeling is P&I would be scored much higher than the others, just that G&P are not scored much higher than the others, and it is unfair how at Nationals they are. They are not a level higher than the others, at best they are equal. That some people I know were worried Weaver & Poje might lose the 2nd Olympic spot to G&P if G&P didnt get 3 spots for Canada alone is testement to how overrated G&P must be in Canada and by Canadian judges.
  18. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    761
    I don't know where you get that G/P probably would have been 12th...I think the best they could have done was maybe 2 or 3 placements higher , considering the rest of the field.. The only thing that makes sense to me is that SC should really be giving all four of these couples an even break , but they haven't, beginning with 2012 Canadians. ( Actually, the shenanigans might have begun in 2011, when C/P were still together , but that's another topic).

    Though I like P/I best, overall, in terms of potential, I do like the other teams as well, which is hard to reflect in a poll.Though I admit I like G/P least of the four doesn't mean I dislike the skaters , themselves , just what's been done with them. With every team there are going to be efforts made to accentuate their strengths and downplay their weaknesses ( fair enough ) but with G/P that's been taken to the extreme , and I don't think it will help them at the world level ( it certainly didn't here ). Speed and strength moves ,with not much else in between, is just not enough. And in the meantime 3 other teams with roughly the same abilities ( in various ways ) have to be languishing , probably feeling they have two strikes against them before they even get to the plate.
  19. fan

    fan Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Messages:
    966
    i think edwards/pang have a legitimate shot too.
  20. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    761
    Right , I forgot about them having to move up..Love that young team.
  21. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    176
    I would love to see P/I's luck change, with the injuries and their unfortunate fall in the FD and Canadians, they haven't had a chance to really show their skating to it's true potential.
  22. Impromptu

    Impromptu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    1,454
    Actually, looking at the World's PCS marks, I think kates8 might be correct. G/P had the 13th highest PCS marks in spite of the fall; their PCS for a clean skate at 4Cs would work out to be about the 11th best at Worlds, so 12th isn't that bad an estimate. All year, G/P have scored higher in the FD than the SD, so I could have seen them moving up a couple spots from 15th if they'd been clean.

    That said, I hate that freedance and hope they have something better next year.
  23. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,860
    Their PCS scores may have been 13th, but their TES mark was 18th, which is why they ended up in 18th.
  24. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,879
    Just to add some context, Ralph & Hill had their only appearance at Worlds last year. They finished in 13th. P&P just finished 18th. I hope R&H, O&W, P&I, and yes, Edwards & Pang, all take heart at these results and come out with some really stellar programs in the fall.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/CAT008RS.HTM

    This year, R&H didn't have a very good free dance (last year, their Tango was really good). I hope they get some really good programs next year, even if they have to go to someone outside Scarboro to get them; Paul and Piper go to Dean, so certainly Kharis & Asher could go somewhere else for their programs.
  25. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    6,964
    I'm fairly sure the plan for Edwards and Pang is to go back on the JGP and go back to junior worlds. I guess with the short dance being the same for junior an senior they could do both, but I still don't see them in the mix.
  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,378
    I really hope it will be Gilles & Poirier. I love Paul, and I think he and Pipper are beautiful together, and a strong and interesting ice dance team.
    Please !!!!
  27. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,860
    G/P are not a strong team as yet. Piper is nowhere near Paul's level as an ice dancer. Skate Canada is very high on them, but apparently ISU judges don't share the same opinion. However, as long as Skate Canada sticks with their assessment, G/P are likely to be the #3.
  28. Pratfall

    Pratfall Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    761
    E/P have to move up to Seniors nationally. I think they could shake things up a bit at the senior level ,much as O/W did when they moved up. ( It's not that I think they'll step right up and take 3rd )

    euterpe .. I agree , I only hope SC has been shaken somewhat by this..enough to be open to some other outcome.

    doris..R/H are certainly deserving of better material than they had this year. I felt that there was much more energy put into G/P..though R/H had garnered some very positive notice the year before.

    I'm not worried about P/I's material, if this years programs are anything to judge by..they just need to channel some of that W/P grit.;)

    I think O/W need to just keep working as they have been, technically, and up the artistic quotient of their programs.

    But there will be nothing any of them can do, if SC has it's mind made up beforehand.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  29. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2007
    Messages:
    857
    ITA, Pratfall, with everything you've said thus far. You're taking the words right out of my mouth. :)
  30. Tammi

    Tammi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,271
    The rhythm is the same, but the pattern dances are different (they each have a different beat as well, so I'm not even sure the same music could be used for both).

    Senior
    The Tempo of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Elements must be constant and in accordance with the required Tempo of the Pattern Dance Finnstep, i.e. 52 measures of two beats or 104 beats per minute, plus or minus 2 beats per minute.

    Junior
    The Tempo of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Elements must be constant and in accordance with the required Tempo of the Pattern Dance Quickstep, i.e. 56 measures of two beats or 112 beats per minute, plus or minus 2 beats per minute.
  31. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    I want Paul and Piper go because Paul is an incredible dancer. Are the Gilles both citizens? I noticed Alexe is one of Canada's now too.
  32. ltnskater

    ltnskater New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    601
    I'm surprised no one has suggested this, but it seems clear some politiking is behind this situation. G/P getting those high scores at 4CC at a time when it was doubtful whether Kaitlyn and Andrew would be able to skate at worlds, so it was obvious that they were being pushed as the "# 2" team to get as high a placement as they could at worlds to hopefully get 3 spots for the Olympics. Of course, W/P ended up skating at worlds, so the politiking support for G/P was lost, as Canada would now pretty much be guaranteed 3 spots with V/M and W/P, so judges hammered them for mistakes, and of course, it doesn't look too good when all 3 dance teams from the same country finish too high, so there must be some sacrifices.

    That being said, I do have a question, why is it in dance, finishing in the top 2 doesn't guarantee 3 spots, where in singles, it does? Just curious, does anyone know, or is it just like that in the rules? (Perhaps there are less dance spots than singles?)
  33. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    Yes I agree that definitely took place as well. It just shows how huge a difference politics can make in dance too, even today. I am sure some of the baffling results of recent years, such as the Shibutanis bronze at the 2011 Worlds were political based too (more time for Shpilband the political mastermind to push for them with V&M missing almost the whole season). At 4CCs Gilles & Poirer were marked as if they were close to Chock & Bates and the Shibutanis (which I was baffled and stunned by), but by Worlds they were a much lower league than both in the judges eyes, even had they skated perfectly.
  34. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,072
    The rules are the same for all disciplines. To get 3 spots the top 2 skaters/teams from a country must combine to 13 or less. However if only one skater is at worlds, then that skater/team must finish top 2.
  35. ltnskater

    ltnskater New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    601
    Ahh, yes, I completely forgot about that. Which is, had the 2nd Kazakhstan skater never competed, Denis Ten would have gotten 3 spots for his country by virtue of his 2nd place finish, but now they only get 2.
  36. CoralReef

    CoralReef New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    Messages:
    53
    I'm confused by some of the comments in this statement. If that were indeed the case for the so called #3 team, then how does that explain Russia's 3, 9, 11 placements or USA's 1, 7, 8?

    For 4C's, G/P had a better skate overall and none of the European teams competed there. I have always liked P/I, but they really need to show consistency and I hope that DSC coaches will push hard for them to get SC.
  37. kylet3

    kylet3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2002
    Messages:
    3,265
    If the politicking was lost for G/P at Worlds, then all the better, they're finally paying for the mistakes that they're making this season and judges finally called them on it at Worlds. She is technically so inferior to Vanessa and isn't half the skater that she was. They're nowhere near ready to challenge for the top yet. The fact that they beat V/M on the tech mark at Nationals was absolutely ludicrous. Carol Lane must have been doing some serious @ss kissing behind the scenes in order to get them that high.

    All things equal, I do think that Paul/Islam really are the third best team in Canada. Unfortunately, they've had such rotten luck with injuries and falls and the like. I really hope that they can find the time and put a good season together in order to challenge for that third spot. If it all comes together, they really do have the potential to be absolutely spectacular. Their lines, extension and expression are absolutely exquisite now. If they can just find the right vehicles and maybe a little bit of luck, then they really should be the third team that goes to Sochi.
  38. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,100
    Hey, that's right, Ralph and Hill did have a higher finish.. that makes me more optimistic for their chances.. I love them! I voted for them even though I really have no idea who it's going to be.
  39. Golightly

    Golightly New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,231
    G-P beat V-M on the technical mark?!? For serious? I... what?
  40. ltnskater

    ltnskater New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    601
    I will address the 2nd comment first, yes, G/P had a better skate overall at 4CC, but really? 97 points at 4CC compared to 81 i think at worlds? 16 point difference for a mistake on a twizzle? Even when other European teams are at worlds, that is a little ridiculous (in terms of disparity between the marks between competitions). Personally, I think 81 was too low at worlds (I felt that they had improved over the season and even with the mistake should have scored a few marks higher), and 97 was too high at 4CC. Think back to the grand prix season and their scores, getting around 84 points for the FD in BOTH their events.

    So when they skate well as they can, they seem to score around 85, the only anomaly being 4CC where they scored much higher in the high 90s. Take note that this was the time when W/P was injured and doubtful to skate at worlds, meaning G/P needed a top 11 finish to guarantee 3 spots in Sochi for Canada. That's what I mean by some politiking going on.

    To address your 1st comment, Russian boost is quite obvious, Sochi Olympics, clearly no team is going to catch D/W or V/M, the best they can hope for is 3rd hence the bronze medal. The other 2 teams needed to be around where they finished to get 3 spots for Russia. Meteoric rise of Chock/Bates is a little puzzling to me & fall of the Shibs (former bronze medallist at worlds) seems more like a situation showing the falling support of 1 team and the rise of another from the same country. The fact is the #3 team from the US are good enough to place as high as they did in their "tier". What I think it really boils down to is this, there are a number of teams below V/M and D/W that are similar enough in skating ability (the "tier" i was referring to before) to allow for such politiking placements to happen. It is therefore difficult, even with the politiking, to put a team that is obviously in a lower tier, into a higher one. The best example is the rest of the world cannot touch the top 2 teams because they are in a tier of their own (although deservedly so, because their skating is indeed far superior to any other team). So that being said, both #2/#3 American and #1/#2 Russian teams are all in that "tier" extending from roughly 3rd - 10th. The next lower tier seem to be the rest of the field, and it seems that #3 Russian team happened to finish at the top of the pack of that tier this time around.

    Of course, this is hard to prove, but the results from past competitions suggest this kind of "system" in place, even if it is not official.

    To kylet3, I don't believe there was much politiking support for G/P throughout the season (and if there was, it really didn't show too well), their scores seemed about right and only inflated at 4CCs, purpose being to push G/P up in the standings after W/P were out. Seems like Skate Canada promotes G/P hard as the #3 Canadian team, but lets them develop in their first senior GP season. You also can't expect G/P to be as good as C/P after not even 2 years together, compared to a decade of skating together.