Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by vexlak, Jan 28, 2013.
Ralph and Hill don't have the world minimums? I know it's unlikely they'd be sent due to their placement, but I'm just surprised if they don't have the minimum scores.
I concluded the same... (the other option being Jeremy being dropped by USFSA)
Wang should have gotten the nod to go to Junior Worlds over Yasmin. Wang had a good year on the JGP while Siraj didn't even compete. Plus Wang has way more potential especially if she can start skating clean in her SP. As usual the USFS uses the standings at Nationals to pick their team and leaves off more talented skaters.
Maybe they were questioning their judgement in sending Vanessa Lam on the basis of her strong JGP season last year when she placed behind Wang at Nationals then kind of bombed at JW and wound up 13th. Angela's scores on the JGP were quite a bit higher than Vanessa's last season, though the placements were pretty similar (both 1st and 3rd at their events, then 4th to Vanessa's 5th at the JGPF) and Angela scored higher at Nationals compared to Vanessa last season. I think it's more the situation that if they sent Wang, they'd have to send Miller too as she finished 2nd at the JGPF and also skated well at Nationals, finishing just a couple points behind Angela overall, and where Hicks medaled, she earned and after-Nationals assignment and Cesario skated so well and beat both Wang and Miller at Nationals and deserves an assignment too (and really needs it to get GP assignments next season), but there wasn't room on 4CC to send Cesario and Hicks there without chalking Gao, who really does deserve 4CC after her GP season and skating so well at Nationals too, so it was probably just easier to go with Siraj than having to pick between Wang and Miller. Also, Samantha can't compete on the JGP or go to JW next season, while both Angela and Hannah can, so missing out on JW this year is not a huge deal, they can definitely get JGP assignments next season and may even be able to get senior GP assignments based on their SBs and points accumulated on the JGP
But I'd rather cry Nationalism and throw my laptop out the window
I have a feeling like we are back in 2012. Ashley is going to end up cleaning the ice like Alissa did last year and Gold will be the top finisher of the two.
It's posted here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?86487-Entries-2013-Worlds
Agreed. I really thought Wang deserved a JW spot. Especially when she was passed over for JW last year after finishing 8th overall but was 5th in the LP.. She did have the highest scoring element in the 2013 Ladies SR competition (3Z/3T/2T scored 12.60 pts). A feat in itself.
I'm glad to see Hicks and Cesario on the team, but a little leary with Siraj. Siraj has the tiniest jumps i've ever seen on a SR lady. Tinier than Lams.
I would have preferred Wang or Edmunds over Siraj. Though I do like Siraj's artistry.
I think Siraj's jumps at 2013 Nationals were better than any jumps I've ever seen from Lam or Hannah Miller. Angela Wang is amazing but then so is Yasmin. US ladies need about 8 spots at Junior Worlds.
Ralph/Hill were on the list of teams that had the Worlds TES FS minimum, but did not have the SP minimum, and they didn't make it this year at Nebelhorn or Skate Canada.
Thanks. I don't go into forums for the competition until closer to the start date so I missed that.
Wow, that's kind of bad, really. I thought they were better skaters than that. Or is it just some sort of fluke? How many US Ice Dancers have met the TES minimums?
The top 5 Senior finishers at 2013 US Nationals (that's why there is no 3rd alternate listed for Worlds). Some Junior teams (3?) have met the Worlds minimums as well, but they wouldn't be considered as alternates for Senior Worlds.
The SD minimums are quite high. For example, Virtue/Moir didn't make the SD minimum at Skate Canada (granted, they had it from last season and earned it in Russia this season, but still). I wouldn't call it a fluke (after all, they also didn't have them last season), though.
Yeah, that's what I'm getting from this discussion. I hadn't really been paying attention to the minimums as I just assumed most of the skaters would easily get them but it sounds like they could use some tweaking.
I think the ISU reserves the right to alter the minimums nearer the time if it doesn't look like the right number are going to qualify for worlds, and I think they're allowed to adjust it up and well as down.
The ISU will decide 2 weeks before the entry deadline of 2013 Worlds (February 17, 2013 – 20:00 hrs, local time London, ON).
kwanfan1818 has posted updated Worlds minimum scores lists by discipline starting here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...hievers-2012&p=3820137&viewfull=1#post3820137
What??? What the heck was the ISU thinking? If the top skaters in the world can't hit the bare minimum everytime they even think about their program, the level they set it at is just absurd.
I fundamentally disagree with choosing the junior team based on a senior competition.
The time Bereswill was left off the Junior world team having won the JGP final because she was beaten by peers at their senior nationals is indicative of the flawed policy. Junior girls who have had extensive appearances on the jgp scene may not just be fatigued by nationals, but also over whelmed training with idols, marked down on components compared to more mature counterparts and are rarely judged against each other, instead they are judged in a senior context.
Girls like Wang and Hannah would score AND perform differently in a junior competition, where they can be directly compared.
The whole point of junior competition is to provide a platform for junior athletes to be just and not forced to mature or face the pressures of senior level competition too soon. And yet, US ladies cannot compete at Junior levels unless they prove to be successful as seniors? It's an absurd dichotomy IMHO and undermines the protective/nurturing concept that is junior competition.
USFS doesn't actually choose the Junior team based on the results of Seniors. They use a combination of the results of the Senior competitions and the results of the Junior competitions. That's because our Senior competitions has skaters who are eligible for the Junior World team and skaters who are not eligible and our Junior competitions also has skaters who are eligible for the Junior World Team and who are not eligible. (I believe they also take into account results over the Fall. Or at least they should.)
Having it split up like that does lead to some weird selections. They could have another separate competition just to decide the Jr World Team but that would tire the skaters out even more. So I'm not sure what they could do except to completely change their test and competition structure to match the international structure and I just can't see that happening as ours has been around forever and serves us pretty well while the international one wouldn't really serve most of the USFS skaters that well at all.
They did use a separate competition in the summer to choose the Jr World team many of the years when Jr. Worlds was in December. Now that it's after Nationals, they mostly use Nationals but also consider JGP results, etc.
If that's the case, then Siraj's pick for Junior Worlds makes even less sense.
Let's compare (Nationals placement in parenthesis):
(6) Yasmin Siraj: 0 internationals
(8) Samantha Cesario: 3rd at one JGP
(9) Angela Wang: 1st and 3rd in JGP, 4th at JGPF
(10) Hannah Miller: 2nd and 2nd in JGP, 2nd at JGPF
I cannot think of one thing to recommend Siraj for Junior Worlds other than her placement in Senior Ladies. It seems clear to me that they literally went down the results of the event.
Well, perhaps they excused her lack of internationals due to her recent history of injury.
A skater who was healthy and just didn't get picked for internationals might be treated differently.
Also, with the craycray that is the JPG and jr international selection process in the US, I imagine the USFSA doesn't want to penalize someone 2x by following a guideline that rewards someone for success in jr internationals / JGP *and* punishes them for not being able to compete at those events in the first place. There just aren't enough spots to go around to all the deserving skaters. So if someone deserves but doesn't get a spot, they shouldn't be relegated behind skaters who similarly deserved spots and actually got them.
But of course, you also have to factor in the SCOB clout.
Not really. They would use an international result to pick someone farther down in the results list who did really well internationally. They aren't going to use them to punish someone who manage to beat all those skaters who did have internationals but didn't have internationals. Now, if she had internationals and bombed at them, it would might make sense to skip over her. But in this case she has no Fall international results to move her placement up or down so it stays where it is.
I think going down the results for a competition where kids skate against each other makes sense. Siraj beat those skaters so maybe she could do it again at JW. OTOH, what gets weird is where to place the skaters who skated in the Junior event. Polina Edmunds won Juniors but isn't going to Junior Worlds. So they are saying that a 1st place in Juniors isn't as good as a 8th place in Seniors. Is that reasonable? I don't know.
I'm trying to figure out who you think should have been sent instead of Siraj. She seems like a pretty good pick to me.
Last year, they skipped Wang to pick Lam for jr worlds though Wang did beat Lam at US nationals, and Lam got picked because she qualified for Jgp final (and placed last). Lam finished 13th at jr worlds.
Having said that, nationals results turn out to be such a way that you either have to use just nationals results, or skip over higher ranked girls at nationals to choose the girls who placed top 4 at JGP finals (Wang and Miller). No surprise whom USFS picked. Hicks and Cesario both medalled at JGP; it's just Siraj who is a question mark.
Agnes Z and E Hughes did well at jr world despite not having competed all season that year. Siraj might do well, though she needs bigger jumps for sure.
I may be wrong here, but has Polina had any international events where she could have met the minimum TES requirements? Or Mariah Bell for that matter. I agree it does get weird though!
Polina Edmunds has yet to compete internationally. Mariah Bell attained the TES minimums for Junior Worlds at Gardena Spring Trophy in Italy in April 2012 (she won the Junior silver medal in her international debut there).
Yasmin Siraj has been dealing with injuries for the past 2 seasons. In her first JGP season in the fall of 2010 at the age of 14, she won 2 silvers and placed 7th of 8 in the Final.
Also, 2011 Junior Worlds (6th place finish) was Courtney Hicks' first international competition after she won the. U.S. Junior title convincingly by 20 points (like Agnes Zawadzki did the year before).
The top 3 Juniors at U.S. Nationals were:
1 Polina Edmunds, Peninsula SC 58.17 (1st in SP) 101.70 (1st in FS) 159.87
2 Mariah Bell, Rocky Mountain FSC 56.63 (2) 96.17 (3) 152.80
3 Barbie Long, Illinois Valley FSC 51.05 (4) 101.48 (2) 152.53
As far as I can find, Edmunds didn't get any international assignments. She doesn't have an Ice Network page, ISU bio or Wikipedia. It's really a shame she couldn't have gotten a JGP or even a Junior B. Edmunds had a barn-burner freeskate with 7 triples and two triple-triple combos (downgraded).
A similar example is Gracie Gold, who didn't even qualify for 2011 Nationals, and she got a JGP the following year. She won that, then won Junior Nationals and went to Junior Worlds. By that right, Wang won a JGP and should go. Some years they pick two from Juniors, other years only from Seniors, and it doesn't seem to be based on the same stuff year to year. It's confusing, to say the least.
I'm not saying Siraj will do poorly. Just that USFS seems to selectively use competitive history.