2013 US WORLDS TEAM ANNOUNCED

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by vexlak, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. AliasJohnDoe

    AliasJohnDoe Spin Alissa Spin!!!

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    Agreed. I really thought Wang deserved a JW spot. Especially when she was passed over for JW last year after finishing 8th overall but was 5th in the LP.. She did have the highest scoring element in the 2013 Ladies SR competition (3Z/3T/2T scored 12.60 pts). A feat in itself.

    I'm glad to see Hicks and Cesario on the team, but a little leary with Siraj. Siraj has the tiniest jumps i've ever seen on a SR lady. Tinier than Lams.

    I would have preferred Wang or Edmunds over Siraj. Though I do like Siraj's artistry.
  2. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    I think Siraj's jumps at 2013 Nationals were better than any jumps I've ever seen from Lam or Hannah Miller. Angela Wang is amazing but then so is Yasmin. US ladies need about 8 spots at Junior Worlds.
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Ralph/Hill were on the list of teams that had the Worlds TES FS minimum, but did not have the SP minimum, and they didn't make it this year at Nebelhorn or Skate Canada.
  4. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Thanks. I don't go into forums for the competition until closer to the start date so I missed that.

    Wow, that's kind of bad, really. I thought they were better skaters than that. Or is it just some sort of fluke? How many US Ice Dancers have met the TES minimums?
  5. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    The top 5 Senior finishers at 2013 US Nationals (that's why there is no 3rd alternate listed for Worlds). Some Junior teams (3?) have met the Worlds minimums as well, but they wouldn't be considered as alternates for Senior Worlds.
    MacMadame and (deleted member) like this.
  6. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    The SD minimums are quite high. For example, Virtue/Moir didn't make the SD minimum at Skate Canada (granted, they had it from last season and earned it in Russia this season, but still). I wouldn't call it a fluke (after all, they also didn't have them last season), though.
  7. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Yeah, that's what I'm getting from this discussion. I hadn't really been paying attention to the minimums as I just assumed most of the skaters would easily get them but it sounds like they could use some tweaking.
  8. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I think the ISU reserves the right to alter the minimums nearer the time if it doesn't look like the right number are going to qualify for worlds, and I think they're allowed to adjust it up and well as down.
  9. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  10. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    What??? What the heck was the ISU thinking? If the top skaters in the world can't hit the bare minimum everytime they even think about their program, the level they set it at is just absurd.
  11. poths

    poths Well-Known Member

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    I fundamentally disagree with choosing the junior team based on a senior competition.

    The time Bereswill was left off the Junior world team having won the JGP final because she was beaten by peers at their senior nationals is indicative of the flawed policy. Junior girls who have had extensive appearances on the jgp scene may not just be fatigued by nationals, but also over whelmed training with idols, marked down on components compared to more mature counterparts and are rarely judged against each other, instead they are judged in a senior context.

    Girls like Wang and Hannah would score AND perform differently in a junior competition, where they can be directly compared.

    The whole point of junior competition is to provide a platform for junior athletes to be just and not forced to mature or face the pressures of senior level competition too soon. And yet, US ladies cannot compete at Junior levels unless they prove to be successful as seniors? It's an absurd dichotomy IMHO and undermines the protective/nurturing concept that is junior competition.
  12. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    USFS doesn't actually choose the Junior team based on the results of Seniors. They use a combination of the results of the Senior competitions and the results of the Junior competitions. That's because our Senior competitions has skaters who are eligible for the Junior World team and skaters who are not eligible and our Junior competitions also has skaters who are eligible for the Junior World Team and who are not eligible. (I believe they also take into account results over the Fall. Or at least they should.)

    Having it split up like that does lead to some weird selections. They could have another separate competition just to decide the Jr World Team but that would tire the skaters out even more. So I'm not sure what they could do except to completely change their test and competition structure to match the international structure and I just can't see that happening as ours has been around forever and serves us pretty well while the international one wouldn't really serve most of the USFS skaters that well at all.
  13. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    They did use a separate competition in the summer to choose the Jr World team many of the years when Jr. Worlds was in December. Now that it's after Nationals, they mostly use Nationals but also consider JGP results, etc.

    Yeah.
  14. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case, then Siraj's pick for Junior Worlds makes even less sense.

    Let's compare (Nationals placement in parenthesis):

    (6) Yasmin Siraj: 0 internationals
    (8) Samantha Cesario: 3rd at one JGP
    (9) Angela Wang: 1st and 3rd in JGP, 4th at JGPF
    (10) Hannah Miller: 2nd and 2nd in JGP, 2nd at JGPF

    I cannot think of one thing to recommend Siraj for Junior Worlds other than her placement in Senior Ladies. It seems clear to me that they literally went down the results of the event.
  15. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Well, perhaps they excused her lack of internationals due to her recent history of injury.

    A skater who was healthy and just didn't get picked for internationals might be treated differently.

    Also, with the craycray that is the JPG and jr international selection process in the US, I imagine the USFSA doesn't want to penalize someone 2x by following a guideline that rewards someone for success in jr internationals / JGP *and* punishes them for not being able to compete at those events in the first place. There just aren't enough spots to go around to all the deserving skaters. So if someone deserves but doesn't get a spot, they shouldn't be relegated behind skaters who similarly deserved spots and actually got them.

    But of course, you also have to factor in the SCOB clout.
  16. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Not really. They would use an international result to pick someone farther down in the results list who did really well internationally. They aren't going to use them to punish someone who manage to beat all those skaters who did have internationals but didn't have internationals. Now, if she had internationals and bombed at them, it would might make sense to skip over her. But in this case she has no Fall international results to move her placement up or down so it stays where it is.

    I think going down the results for a competition where kids skate against each other makes sense. Siraj beat those skaters so maybe she could do it again at JW. OTOH, what gets weird is where to place the skaters who skated in the Junior event. Polina Edmunds won Juniors but isn't going to Junior Worlds. So they are saying that a 1st place in Juniors isn't as good as a 8th place in Seniors. Is that reasonable? I don't know.

    I'm trying to figure out who you think should have been sent instead of Siraj. She seems like a pretty good pick to me.
  17. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Last year, they skipped Wang to pick Lam for jr worlds though Wang did beat Lam at US nationals, and Lam got picked because she qualified for Jgp final (and placed last). Lam finished 13th at jr worlds.
    Having said that, nationals results turn out to be such a way that you either have to use just nationals results, or skip over higher ranked girls at nationals to choose the girls who placed top 4 at JGP finals (Wang and Miller). No surprise whom USFS picked. Hicks and Cesario both medalled at JGP; it's just Siraj who is a question mark.

    Agnes Z and E Hughes did well at jr world despite not having competed all season that year. Siraj might do well, though she needs bigger jumps for sure.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  18. elka_sk8

    elka_sk8 Well-Known Member

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    I may be wrong here, but has Polina had any international events where she could have met the minimum TES requirements? Or Mariah Bell for that matter. I agree it does get weird though!
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Polina Edmunds has yet to compete internationally. Mariah Bell attained the TES minimums for Junior Worlds at Gardena Spring Trophy in Italy in April 2012 (she won the Junior silver medal in her international debut there).

    Yasmin Siraj has been dealing with injuries for the past 2 seasons. In her first JGP season in the fall of 2010 at the age of 14, she won 2 silvers and placed 7th of 8 in the Final.

    ETA:
    Also, 2011 Junior Worlds (6th place finish) was Courtney Hicks' first international competition after she won the. U.S. Junior title convincingly by 20 points (like Agnes Zawadzki did the year before).

    The top 3 Juniors at U.S. Nationals were:
    1 Polina Edmunds, Peninsula SC 58.17 (1st in SP) 101.70 (1st in FS) 159.87
    2 Mariah Bell, Rocky Mountain FSC 56.63 (2) 96.17 (3) 152.80
    3 Barbie Long, Illinois Valley FSC 51.05 (4) 101.48 (2) 152.53
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  20. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    As far as I can find, Edmunds didn't get any international assignments. She doesn't have an Ice Network page, ISU bio or Wikipedia. It's really a shame she couldn't have gotten a JGP or even a Junior B. Edmunds had a barn-burner freeskate with 7 triples and two triple-triple combos (downgraded).

    A similar example is Gracie Gold, who didn't even qualify for 2011 Nationals, and she got a JGP the following year. She won that, then won Junior Nationals and went to Junior Worlds. By that right, Wang won a JGP and should go. Some years they pick two from Juniors, other years only from Seniors, and it doesn't seem to be based on the same stuff year to year. It's confusing, to say the least.

    I'm not saying Siraj will do poorly. Just that USFS seems to selectively use competitive history.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  21. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    And there isn't a prescribed solo triple in the short programs at senior competitions.

    One year this girl was sent to Jr Worlds due to her strong senior Nationals showing but she couldn't do a 3flip which was the prescribed jump in the short at Jr Worlds that season so she only did a 2flip there instead. What was her name again? The girl with a very nice Y spin and went to Princeton?
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Overall I think the US assignments for Worlds and Jr Worlds are fair, except I would put Wang on the team, put MIller as 1st alternate, and Siraj as 2nd alternate.

    But let this be a lesson to Wang. She needs to fix her short program demons.

    I am glad Rippon gets 4CCs - I respect him for by and large fixing the 3axel and he seems more powerful this season. Is he training the quad (toe/ sal/ lutz) still?
  23. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Polina was 6th at 2012 US Nationals as a Junior. She and Mariah Bell (5th) had some terrific performances over this past summer, and were on the list of JGP substitutes, but never got an assignment. Long was 4th in Juniors at 2012 Nationals and she got one assignment (silver medal).

    Gold got her one JGP assignment, the last one of the 2011-2012 season, based on fantastic performances in the summer of 2011. She also lucked out in that there weren't quite so many talented ladies that particular JGP season who earned two assignments.

    Siraj has skated senior nationals since 2011, when she 14; she finished 8th. She went to a JGP in the fall of 2011 and was 5th. After that, I seem to recall she was injured. She made it to 2012 Nationals and finished 15th so she got no JGP assignments this past fall. I think she got JW because she skated so consistently well in both SP and FS. I love Angela Wang, but she has a history of botched SPs.
  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Wang did skate a clean SP at the JGP in Croatia, landing 3Lz+3T, 3F, 2A with all 3 spins called level 4. She scored 58.47, which currently ranks her #18 on the ISU Seasons Best SP scores list, and won the gold there.

    Katrina Hacker. She finished 5th at 2009 Junior Worlds (her last international) and started at Princeton that fall.
  25. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Her Croatia JGP excepted, Angela Wang DOES have a pattern of messy SPs. It seems she has had a problem with the first jump in the program in four of the five SPs over the past year:

    US Nationals 2013 SP - fall on the 3z, 10th; 8th in the FS and 9th overall.
    JGPF SP - 3z+1t, 4th; although she was 2nd in the FS, she was too far behind and was 4th overall.
    Lake Placid JGP SP - 3z<+1t, 8th. Although she was 2nd in the FS, she had to settle for 3rd overall.
    US Nationals 2012 SP - fall on 3f, 16th; 6th in the FS and 8th overall.

    Maybe she should start the program with the 2a?
  26. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Not having the minimum TES complicates things but I was speaking more philosophically. Some years they've picked a gal or two from Seniors and then jumped to Juniors and ran down that list in order of finish. So my question is: at what placement in Seniors do you consider that equal to a win (or 2nd place) in Juniors?

    As was pointed out, when you pull from Seniors and Juniors you are kind of comparing apples and oranges. With CoP, I guess you could go by raw scores to some extent. They don't really carry over like that but at least it gets you in the ballpark.
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Remember 2007 U.S. Nationals? Rachael Flatt made an impressive senior debut in 5th place but she didn't have an international record that fall (she withdrew from her 1st JGP due to injury). USFS selected the top 3 Juniors for Junior Worlds that year: Nagasu (no international record), Zhang (JGP Final champ), Wagner (2nd in Final).

    ETA:
    He reportedly worked on quad toes at some of the Nationals practices.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013