Discussion in 'Kiss And Cry 2014-2015' started by Sylvia, Feb 12, 2013.
So if either Ashley Wagner or Gracie Gold do not place in top 10 at worlds. They will nominate Alissa Czisny or Mirai Nagasu for the US?
The federations are allowed some discretion in their choices... it's never been clear-cut (ETA: Menshov for Russia in 2009, Gold for USA in 2012, to cite 2 examples).
I've looked at the Grand Prix/GPF ranking points from this season, and it appears that Japan, Canada, USA, Russia, France, and China (in no particular order) may be top 6 teams at this time?
Adding up JGP/Grand Prix/GP Final points only, I get:
1. JPN - Takahashi 800 + Hanyu 720 + Asada 800 + Suzuki 648 + [No Pair] + Reeds 262 = 3230
2. USA - Abbott 360 + Miner 324 + Wagner 720 + Gao 472 + Denney/Coughlin 324 + Davis/White 800 = 3000
3. CAN - Chan 648 + Reynolds 262 + Osmond 400 + Lacoste 236 + Duhamel/Radford 583 + Virtue/Moir 720 = 2849
4. RUS - Kovtun 350 + Voronov 324 + Tuktamysheva 525 + Sotnikova 320 + Volosozhar/Trankov 800 + Bobrova/Soloviev 525 = 2848
5. FRA - Amodio 324 + Joubert 292 + Meite 262 + Gilleron-Gorry 120 + James/Cipres 292 + Pechalat/Bourzat 648 = 1938
6. CHN - Han 225 + Song 262 + Z. Li 292 + Y. Zhang 191 + Pang/Tong 648 + Huang/Zheng 213 = 1831
Next in line: ITA? Marchei 292 + [no 2nd GP or JGP lady] + Panfili 108 + [no 2nd GP or JGP man] + Berton/Hotarek 324 + Capellini/Lanotte 583 = 1307
Any idea what will happen with Japan not having a pair? they have enough points to qualify anyway, & I'm sure everyone would want them there as hosts, but it would be a bit strange to miss an entry in one section of the event.
I forgot to include this part of the Announcement:
"The team of the host ISU Member, if not qualified under the applicable Qualifying System, will receive a wild card entry as team no. 6 replacing the team finishing in that place in the standings."
There are two provisions: the one that Sylvia quoted and,
This provision determines whether the ISU will refuse to allow a team to participate if best-ranked skaters do not participate and whether the ISU will sanction that country. Were Czisny to remain one of the two top-ranked (WS) US Ladies after World Championships 2013 -- points earned at Senior B's between Worlds and WTT don't count -- I doubt the ISU would want to deal with the paperwork of having the US submit her name and then replace her with a substitute because it's too soon after her surgery. After that, the top-ranked skaters are the top-ranked skaters, and there's nothing to suggest that substitutes are exempt. ETA: In the document, but in practice, last year, with the same wording, the US was allowed to appoint Gold, who was behind Nagasu, Zawazki, Gao, Zhang in WS, in place of the injured Czisny, who was first-ranked.
Currently the US Ladies are ranked:
10. Czisny: 2650
11. Wagner: 2611, needs 24th place or higher to pass Czisny
17. Nagasu: 2167
18. Zawadzki: 2151
19. Gao: 2130
22. Gold: 1994, needs 19th 6th* or higher at Worlds to pass Nagasu and 6th or higher 1st* to pass Czisny
As it stands now, were Wagner and Gold to place 25th or lower in London, unless they wanted to risk ejection and sanctions, the USFS still would have to appoint Wagner as the second-highest-ranked US Lady, because no skater under her will earn any more WS points before WTT. Were Gold to place 20th 7th* or lower in London, then USFS could do what it wanted, because Czisny would have a medical reason not to skate.
*Gold currently has 496 points from 4C's and only can earn incremental points over that amount.
Of course, this could change if Gold and/or Wagner didn't skate and the US went to the substitutes list for one or both of them (Zawadzki, Gao, Nagasu) in London. To be guaranteed a WTT spot, they'd have to pass Wagner. Zawadzki with 402 championship points would need to medal, Gao with 612 championship points would need to win, and Nagasu would need a Top 10 finish in London.
ETA: The competing teams have more leeway for Pairs and Dance, if their top two ranked teams place Top 10 at Worlds. IIRC, Bazarova/Larianov and Ilinykh/Katsapalov were the second-ranked teams, but since they, too, were Top 10 at Worlds, they could go in place of Volosozhar/Trankov and Bobrova/Soloviev.
I am a bit confused as to how Japan will compete if they do not have a pairs team, however. It's hard to imagine Narumi Takahashi has a new partner and is comfortable enough with him to do a competition so quickly. Weren't they just having tryouts barely a month ago?
Can they compete without a pairs team?
In Italian case, I thought you have to take Euros placement for second ladie/man
Gold subbed for Czisny, who was injured. Given that Gachinski was still a junior and Russian Men were weak in 2009, aside from Voronov, who competed, Lutai would have had points from Euros 2007-8, 2009 Worlds, and 2007 Skate America. Borodulin would have had points from Jr. Worlds 2007-8 and Euros 2009, 2 JGP's in 2007, 1 GP in 2008, and Winter Universiade 2009. Griazev's points were from 2007. I think Borodulin's the most likely to have been ranked 1st or 2nd in WS with Voronov. Was Menshov a substitute for one of the top two-ranked skaters?
There are two sets of WS points that are used: the first group is from GPF or GP, and if there aren't two, from JGP. That is what Sylvia calculated. The second is the two sets of championship points, first from WC's, which haven't been held, and then, if there aren't two -- i.e., Italian Men -- a second can be taken from Euros. The way it's written, if the Euros points for a skater are higher than Worlds points, the Worlds points are taken any way.
Italy should have two scores from Worlds in Ladies, Pairs, and Dance. They will have one entry for Men at Worlds. If that skater comes in 24th or higher, they will have one set of WS championship points. They won't have any from Euros, because the only Italian Men competing were Bacchini and Parkinson who didn't reach the FS, and WS points are only awarded to 24th place at championships if the skater completes the competition.
I totally forgot that Gracie went to this last year.
They should set it up so that only your three highest scoring disciplines count towards the overall score. That way, teams that qualify entrants in all four divisions wouldn't have to choose who to leave behind before the competition, but teams w/o either a pairs or dance team wouldn't be shut out entirely.
Didn't Kovtun go for Russia last year? How on earth did that pass through all these loopholes considering Kovtun was a) still a Junior and b) not even at Junior Worlds...
Kovtun and Bush both skated for Russia last year. I only have a copy of the WS after they were re-adjusted, but I don't think either would have bypassed Gachinski, who was at Worlds, and Menshov in WS, and maybe Dmitriev.
So once again the ISU puts big wording in their announcement, and then ignores it. I don't know why they bother.
we have a junior man who has scored at jgp:Antonio PANFILI was 9th at Junior GP in Germany. Italy has two entries for worlds if Parkinson gets the LP minimum score at Challenge Cup
Do you think Russia will send a better team than last year to test this kind of event before the Olympics?
By The way this event has been handled the last two times I think its obvious the "top 2 ranked skaters" rule has been conveniently ignored in classic ISU style.
France sent Amodio to the first WTT in 2009. Preaubert should be there if they follow the rule though. Last year, Russia sent Kovtun and Bush (instead of Gachinski), and USA sent Gold despite her very low place in the WS. They don't take the rule seriously. I think the ISU and the JSF won't complain if the participating federations send members good enough. Russian men were far from "good". I guess Mishin didn't want to travel across Siberia for Gachinski in very poor form. Many Japanese fans were disappointed. Gachi is very popular in Japan.
Only 1-8 at GP/JGP get WS points.
1-10 in JGP receive World Standings points (see the table in the WTT Announcement linked above) - that's why Panfili was included in my GP/JGP calculations for Italy.
Yes, Menshov replaced Lutai; Voronov was the other initial entry. I checked in the FSU Archives re. Menshov at 2009 WTT - World Standings of the Russian men at the time as posted back then, with 2009 Russian Sr/Jr Nationals results added by me:
19 2204 Sergei VORONOV* S1
20 1878 Artem BORODULIN S2 - injured/had surgery a month prior
30 1586 Ivan BARIEV J1 - missed Jr Worlds
37 1382 Andrei LUTAI* S3 - WD from WTT due to health problems
44 1242 Artem GRIGORIEV S9/J3 - listed as a sub. but had a medical problem?
50 1052 Alexander USPENSKI - missed Nationals/groin surgery in early 2009, according to his Wiki
51 1024 Artur GACHINSKI S10/J2 - missed Jr Worlds
56 956 Andrei GRIAZEV S5
66 863 Sergei DOBRIN S13 - competed in 2009 Russia Cup Final, 4th in a weak field
72 753 Konstantin MENSHOV S6 - replaced Lutai
WS ranking? Vladimir Uspenski S4
I was looking in the JGPF column.
Technically, 2009 would have fit into the, "If no top WS and Top 10 at Worlds, then Top two in WS, or if Top 2 not standing, then sub can be anyone" pattern, like God in 2012, but I don't know if that explains 2012 Kovtun *and* Bush.
4. RUS - Menshov 292 + Voronov 324 + Tuktamysheva 525 + Lipnitskaia 360 + Volosozhar/Trankov 800 + Bobrova/Soloviev 525 = 2826
6. CHN - Wang 236 + Song 262 + Z. Li 292 + Y. Zhang 191 + Pang/Tong 648 + Huang/Zheng 213 = 1842
If Parkinson misses the minimum score for Worlds then Italy can earn points again from Panfili that will compete at Junior Worlds (but only if he places in top 24).
Bumping up this thread now - the 5 qualified countries plus Japan should be announced after all the events are concluded at Worlds.
It said in an IN article that Menshov and Voronov were going for Russia. So at least we get to see how Menshov does after not getting to compete at Euros or Worlds, and if Voronov can redeem himself from that messy Euros showing.
I'm more interested in who the US sends. Hope it's Dornbush and Farris, but it's probably gonna be Abbott and Aaron (or Rippon if they want to try and get him GPs).
So do we know which 6 countries will be competing?!?
Is that formal? Dang, I was hoping for Italy. Wanted another chance to see Carolina's Bolero.
Can Japan even take part without a pair? and how did you calculate this?
If I take the best 2 ladies, mens, 1 dance team and pair team ... Italy has 6959 point and China 6242 point Seasons World Standings points collected.
It didn't work like this,world standings points has nothing to do with the WTT format unfortunately.According to the rules,you have to take the best 2 results of 2 different single skaters men,of 2 different single skaters ladies,of one pair and one dance couple at each of the 2 groups of event( the GPs and the Championships).
Carolina's not competing in the GPs was costly,and with Contesti's retirement,Italy has no chance getting into WTT.
Ridiculous. How does Japan qualify without a pair team. It reminds me of the 1996 Gold Championships when Ekaterina Gordeeva replaced an ill Oksana Bauil in the ladies' event. Admittedly Gordeeva became a singles skater by default, but she was never a ladies' singles Olympic Champion.