2012-2013 TOP 24 SEASON BEST SCORES UPDATED

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by SamuraiK, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    1,742
    237
    63
    After Euros and 4CC here's the Men's Season Best Top 24 List. I'll update the other categories as soon as the 4CC LPs are finished:

    TOP 24 SEASON BEST: ALL GUARANTEED A GP EVENT FOR 2013-2014 SEASON
    Rank Country Name Score Competition
    01. ESP JAVIER FERNANDEZ 274.87 EC
    02. JPN DAISUKE TAKAHASHI 269.40 GPF
    03. JPN YUZURU HANYU 264.29 GPF
    04. CAN PATRICK CHAN 262.35 COR
    05. JPN TAKAHIKO KOZUKA 253.27 GPF
    06. CAN KEVIN REYNOLDS 250.55 4CC
    07. FRA FLORENT AMODIO 250.53 EC
    08. CZE MICHAL BREZINA 243.52 EC
    09. JPN NOBUNARI ODA 238.34 SC
    10. JPN TATSUKI MACHIDA 236.92 COC
    11. USA ROSS MINER 235.37 NHK
    12. CHN HAN YAN 235.22 4CC
    13. USA MAX AARON 234.65 4CC
    14. USA RICHARD DORNBUSH 234.04 4CC
    15. FRA BRIAN JOUBERT 232.47 EC
    16. JPN TAKAHITO MURA 230.68 TEB
    17. CHN NAN SONG 228.46 4CC
    18. USA JEREMY ABBOTT 227.63 TEB
    19. RUS MAXIM KOVTUN 226.57 EC
    20. RUS KONSTANTIN MENSHOV 223.72 COR
    21. USA NATHAN CHEN 222.00 JGP-AUT (will likely stay junior)
    22. USA JOSHUA FARRIS 218.69 JGP-USA
    23. RUS SERGEI VORONOV 217.61 COC
    24. SWE ALEXANDER MAJOROV 211.88 EC

    Skaters bubbling under that can still score higher at Worlds or Jr. Worlds:
    Rank Country Name Score Competition
    26. KAZ DENIS TEN 203.70 SC
    28. CAN ANDREI ROGOZINE 201.99 4CC
    29. UZB MISHA GE 201.71 4CC
    33. USA JASON BROWN 198.32 JGPF
    34. CZE TOMAS VERNER 197.35 SA
    36. AUT VIKTOR PFEIFER 194.77 EC
    37. CHN BOYANG JIN 194.13 JGP-FRA
    39. FRA CHAFIK BESSEGHIER 189.67 EC
    41. GER PETER LIEBERS 187.96 EC
    43. PHI CHRISTOPHER CALUZA 186.79 4CC
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  2. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

    712
    68
    28
    Can Oda or Kozuka still be sent to worlds? Their SB is far better than Mura's and if the skate light outs in their events prior to Worlds a case could be made? Frankly it's a huge risk to send Mura at this point, specially if Takahashi is in the same form of 4cc
     
  3. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    1,742
    237
    63
    The decission has been made . I woudln't change it. If they want next season JPN fed can do as the RUS fed and hold on the announcement of the world team until after 4CC but right now it will not be fair for anyone. Plus I dont see the big risk, even if performing poorly Hanyu and Dai will get the 3 spots. The 3rd skater is always there just for the experience.
     
  4. NMURA

    NMURA Member

    408
    24
    18
    Mura's performances are not bad at all. Looks like 3 or 4 judges are determined to hold him down. Perhaps they considered that Mura could be a definite obstacle to regain/keep their Olympic spots. I think any #3 skater will be treated harshly at worlds. At least Mura can land the quad and the 3A consistently. He is the most promising #2 man after Sochi. They should give more chances to him regardless of current results or reputations.
     
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    20,569
    1,599
    113
    Mura is confirmed for Worlds. I think he's shown incredible improvement this season, his programs are very good (FS in particular is gorgeous) and the PCS he's getting are really retarded.
     
  6. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    1,742
    237
    63
    He's getting mandatory "3rd skater" PCS, so it's a moot point if its him the one sent or Kozu or Oda IMO... they will still get lowers PCS than Hanyu or Dai even if they outperform them (like today ).
     
  7. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    1,742
    237
    63
    PAIRS UPDATE:

    TOP 24 SEASON BEST: ALL GUARANTEED GP EVENTS IN 2013-2014 SEASON
    Rank Country Name Score Competition
    01. RUS VOLOSOZHAR & TRANKOV 221.45 EC
    02. GER SAVCHENKO & SZOLKOWY 205.24 EC
    03. RUS BAZAROVA & LARIONOV 201.60 GPF
    04. CAN DUHAMEL & RADFORD 199.18 4CC
    05. CAN MOORE-TOWERS & MOSCOVITCH 196.78 4CC
    06. CHN PANG & TONG 192.81 GPF
    07. RUS KAVAGUTI & SMIRNOV 187.99 TEB
    08. ITA BERTON & HOTAREK 187.45 EC
    09. USA DENNEY & COUGHLIN 179.21 COR
    10. FRA JAMES & CIPRES 178.81 EC
    11. USA CASTELLI & SHNAPIR 174.51 NHK
    12. RUS STOLBOVA & KLIMOV 172.55 COC
    13. CHN PENG & ZHANG 167.76 TEB
    14. USA ZHANG & BARTHOLOMAY 167.30 4CC
    15. USA SCIMECA & KNIERIM 163.10 NHK
    16. CAN LAWRENCE & SWIEGERS 162.30 4CC
    17. RUS MARTIUSHEVA & ROGONOV 162.25 NHK
    18. RUS FEDOROVA & MOROSHKIN 161.11 JGPF (will stay junior?)
    19. FRA POPOVA & MASSOT 157.12 EC
    20. RUS DAVANKOVA & DEPUTAT 155.96 JGPF
    21. RUS VIGALOVA & ZAKROEV 153.56 JGPF (will stay junior?)
    22. CAN JONES & BEHARRY 152.78 JGP-AUT
    23. CAN PURDY & MARINARO 149.94 JGPF
    24. CHN YU & JIN 149.20 JGPF


    Pairs bubbling under that can still score higher at Worlds or Jr. Worlds:
    Rank Country Name Score Competition
    25. CHN ZHANG & WANG 145.56 4CC
    28. ITA DELLA MONICA & GUARISE 142.53 COR
    29. RUS GAINETDINOVA & BICH 142.26 JGP-CRO
    30. GER VARTMANN & VAN CLEAVE 141.79 EC
    31. RUS TARASOVA & MOROZOV 137.29 JGP-CRO
    32. GER PROLSS & BLOMMAERT 133.48 JGP-GER
    33. USA SIMPSON & BLACKMER 133.05 JGP-AUT
    34. GBR KEMP & KING 131.51 EC
     
  8. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    1,742
    237
    63
    LADIES UPDATE:

    TOP 24 SEASON BEST: ALL GUARANTEED GP EVENTS IN 2013-2014 SEASON
    Rank Country Name Score Competition
    01. JPN MAO ASADA 205.45 4CC
    02. ITA CAROLINA KOSTNER 194.71 EC
    03. RUS ADELINA SOTNIKOVA 193.99 EC
    04. USA ASHLEY WAGNER 190.63 TEB
    05. JPN AKIKO SUZUKI 190.08 4CC
    06. RUS ELIZAVETA TUKTAMYSHEVA 188.85 EC
    07. RUS ELENA RADIONOVA 182.86 JGP-AUT
    08. JPN KANAKO MURAKAMI 181.03 4CC
    09. RUS JULIA LIPNITSKAYA 179.40 TEB
    10. FIN KIIRA KORPI 177.19 COR
    11. USA MIRAI NAGASU 176.68 NHK
    12. CAN KAETLYN OSMOND 176.45 SC
    13. USA CHRISTINA GAO 176.28 4CC
    14. USA GRACIE GOLD 175.03 COR
    15. CHN ZIJUN LI 174.11 NHK
    16. ITA VALENTINA MARCHEI 171.06 EC
    17. USA HANNAH MILLER 168.41 JGPF (will likely stay junior)
    18. RUS ANNA POGORILAYA 167.40 JGPF (will likely stay junior)
    19. USA AGNES ZAWADSKI 166.61 COR
    20. USA ANGELA WANG 162.65 JGP-CRO (will likely stay junior)
    21. JPN SATOKO MIYAHARA 161.65 JGP-USA (will likely stay junior)
    22. GEO ELENE GEDEVANISHVILI 160.52 SC
    23. USA SAMANTHA CESARIO 157.72 JGP-AUT
    23 (tie). JPN HARUKA IMAI 157.72 SA

    Skaters bubbling under that can still score higher at Worlds or Jr. Worlds:
    Rank Country Name Score Competition
    25. FRA MAE-BERENICE MEITE 157.58 TEB
    29. SWE VIKTORIA HELGESSON 155.72 EC
    31. RUS NIKOL GOSVIANI 154.41 EC
    32. USA COURTNEY HICKS 153.77 JGP-USA
    34. ESP SONIA LAFUENTE 152.29 EC
    37. JPN RIKA HONGO 149.38 JGP-FRA
    38. CHN KEXIN ZHANG 148.34 4CC
    39. GER NATHALIE WEINZIERL 147.52 EC
    43. CHN ZIQUAN ZHAO 146.22 JGP-AUT
    45. KOR SO-YOUN PARK 144.77 JGP-TUR
     
  9. umronnie

    umronnie Well-Known Member

    1,232
    398
    83
    Does the top-24 rule refer to GP/ISU championships only? What about Kim's score at NRW, for example?
     
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,513
    4,887
    113
    Re-posting from another thread:
     
  11. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    1,742
    237
    63
    Unfortunately,Senior B scores are not considered in the ISU season best list that is used for GP assignments next season.
     
  12. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    1,742
    237
    63
    ICE DANCE UPDATE:

    TOP 24 SEASON BEST: ALL GUARANTEED GP EVENTS IN 2013-2014 SEASON
    Rank Country Name Score Competition
    01. USA DAVIS & WHITE 187.36 4CC
    02. CAN VIRTUE & MOIR 184.32 4CC
    03. FRA PECHALAT & BOURZAT 170.18 GPF
    04. RUS BOBROVA & SOLOVIEV 169.25 EC
    05. RUS ILINYKH & KATSALAPOV 169.14 EC
    06. ITA CAPPELLINI & LANOTTE 165.80 EC
    07. USA CHOCK & BATES 160.42 4CC
    08. USA SHIBUTANI & SHIBUTANI 159.97 4CC
    09. CAN WEAVER & POJE 158.97 COC
    10. CAN GILLES & POIRIER 157.83 4CC
    11. RUS RIAZANOVA & TKACHENKO 157.77 EC
    12. GBR COOMES & BUCKLAND 152.95 EC
    13. RUS STEPANOVA & BUKIN 149.57 JGPF
    14. GER ZHIGANSHINA & GAZSI 147.28 EC
    15. USA HUBBELL & DONOHUE 145.23 TEB
    16. RUS SINITSINA & ZHIGANSHIN 145.08 COR
    17. AZE ZLOBINA & SITNIKOV 144.83 EC
    18. GER KOLBE & CARUSO 142.54 EC
    19. ITA GUIGNARD & FABBRI 142.48 EC
    20. FRA PAPADAKIS & CIZERON 142.08 JGP-AUT
    21. USA KRIENGKRAIRUT & GIULIETTI-SCHMITT 141.41 SA
    22. FRA CARRON & JONES 140.00 EC
    23. CAN ORFORD & WILLIAMS 139.10 4CC
    24. USA HAWAYEK & BAKER 138.61 JGP-GER (will likely stay junior)

    Teams bubbling under that can still score higher at Worlds or Jr. Worlds:
    Rank Country Name Score Competition
    25. USA ALDRIDGE & EATON 138.43 JGP-SLO
    26. GER KOCH & NUCHTERN 136.21 JGP-TUR
    28. RUS KOSIGINA & MOROSHKIN 135.24 JGP-USA
    30. CAN EDWARDS & PANG 135.01 JGP-TUR
    31. RUS ZENKOVA & SINITSIN 134.63 JGP-CRO
    33. EST SHTORK & RAND 132.90 EC
    34. JPN REED & REED 131.04 4CC
    35. UKR HEEKIN-CANEDY & DUN 129.36 EC
    36. CAN BENT & MACKEEN 129.16 JGP-AUT
    38. USA McNAMARA & CARPENTER 128.16 JGP-TUR
     
  13. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

    12,610
    1,612
    113
    The ladies could be an amazing event in London :watch:
     
  14. Conga

    Conga New Member

    338
    18
    0
    Can anyone explain why the Junior scores are considered comparable and weigh in exactly the same when the required elements are different? Also, what happens to the skaters bumped out of the top 24 by Junior Worlds scores if those higher ranked Junior skaters are not moving up to Seniors?
     
  15. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    3,686
    345
    83
    I don't think it's fair that skaters gets points for Senior B competitions but the scores don't count; if they don't count the skaters shouldn't get points for it.
     
  16. NMURA

    NMURA Member

    408
    24
    18
    Scores at senior B events are generally inflated than ISU events. Largely because the organizers want to give participants better chances to achieve the minimum for ISU championships. Finlandia and NRW are the most generous (outrageous) in this respect. They should never accept those scores for the official SB lists.
     
  17. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    3,686
    345
    83
    Then the ISU shouldn't give the skaters points to boost their rankings based on inflated scores.
     
  18. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    3,357
    822
    113
    the ISU is not giving out the scores, the judges are
     
  19. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    3,357
    822
    113
    Can someone clarify, first 24 season best get at least one GP guaranteed or 2 GP?
     
  20. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    1,742
    237
    63

    They are guaranteed at least one event. Only Top 12 at worlds are guaranteed two events. But in practice almost every skater in the SB list eventually receives 2 assignments.
     
  21. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    3,686
    345
    83
    I understand that-but if the ISU doesn't count the scores because they feel they are inflated; they shouldn't give them ISU points. They may as well give points for national results too or only give points for ISU Grand Prix, GPF, Euros, 4CC, Worlds and Olympics; which seem the most fair. Then you wouldn't have the world/seasons rankings so askew for teams who go to so many B competitions.
     
  22. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    4,891
    843
    0
    There's a reason why senior B competitions are titled "B." Half the number of judges of any championships and even GP and much smaller venue.
     
  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,884
    3,765
    113
    The ISU counts ISU and Olympic events, junior and senior, for the PB list. Senior B's aren't ISU events. They are sanctioned, in that skaters can compete in them without hurting their status, unless they skip GP, in which case they can't compete in the GP period, and, practically peaking, as the only way for many skaters to meet TES minimums. GP's are so skewed towards host country skaters.
     
  24. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    11,908
    1,152
    113
    Skaters and teams can go to as many B competitions as they wish, but on the ISU World Ranking list, only the top TWO results are counted for each year, and only the top four over a three-year period. So the maximum points accrued in a one-year period would be 500, and 1000 points over a 3-year period. Few non-GP skaters win two B events in one year or four over a three-year period.

    But top skaters like Carolina Kostner do take advantage of the B comps for extra points. Even in years when she wasn't placing on the World podium, Carolina was often #1 on the list because of her two B wins per year. And yes, she often accrued 1000 points in B comps over a 3-year period.

    Since B comps don't put skaters on the Seasons Best list, inflated B scores aren't really an issue.
     
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,884
    3,765
    113
    To earn 1000 WS points over three years, a skater would have to win two in the current season and the last season, because the points from two seasons ago are reduced to 70% of their original value. That requires a lot of consistency, and athletes have to pay their way to Senior B's and get no prize money.

    For Seniors, WS points affect GP SP starting order -- inverse of exact WS order -- and early internationals impact WS more for GP. For championships where skaters are grouped, WS impacts the SP draw group, but the only WS rankings that matter are the differences between draw groups. For example, for Worlds, the groups are:

    1-12
    13-15
    everyone else with any WS points
    those with no WS points

    WS points make no difference between the skaters in 1-12 place: each has the same odds of skating first in the penultimate group as last in the final group. It can be a huge deal between #15 and #16, where #16 has much better odds of skating in the first two groups than the coveted first three of the third group, and a huge deal between having no ranking and the smallest ranking.

    WS also impacts GP spots, but only a few skaters in Top 24 WS each year aren't also Top 24 SB, which guarantees a spot.

    Gaining any WS points shows that the skater did well enough in international competition to place 1-5 with an international judging panel. Among skaters training in Europe, the relatively easy access to a Senior B to gain any points that are good for three seasons is a great investment, since it could mean the difference between skating first and 15th at Worlds. Not all 4C's skaters can make those trips, and 4C's functioned as the equivalent of international for many of the small Fed skaters.

    Once minimum scores were introduced, it was impossible for the ISU to not accept Senior B scores toward minimums, even if they hadn't continue to limit GP fields. They had to create a way for more than one-two skaters from all but the strongest skaters to qualify for a championship. The trade-off with additional spots at 4C's is that AUS can send their 1-3 skaters to 4C's, and CRO can send their 2-7 skaters to Senior B's, which are inaccessible except to the wealthiest skaters training on other continents.
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,513
    4,887
    113
    Is this true for all Russian and Japanese skaters? U.S. skaters' and coaches' expenses are covered by USFS, and this seems to be a major reason why more U.S. skaters do not have the opportunity to compete at Senior B's. I believe Skate Canada covers their skaters' travel and accommodation expenses but not the coaches' - can anyone confirm?
     
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,884
    3,765
    113
    It is actually more difficult for Junior singles overall to reach the FS minimums, due to the extra element. It is more difficult for many juniors to reach the SP minimum because the required jump might have a lower base than the jump they's have done if there wasn't a restriction -- ie, loop is required and they'd rather do te lutz -- or if the required jump is one they can't do as a triple and have to do as a double or can't do well as a triple and would have a higher total score on the jump (and leave a better impression) if they were able to choose one on their own-- ie a 3Lo instead of a 3F or a 3F instead of a 3Flutz.

    As far as the difference in lengths of the FS programs, there's nothing to stop a senior from completing the overlapping elements in the same amount of time as in a junior program, although, practically speaking, most senior programs end with a spin or two. I read an explanation that there's a point in a skate where lactic acid build-up is acute -- somewhere around the 1.5 and 2 minute mark -- and was one of the reasons for the "slow" sections in programs of old -- and it may be that seniors have an advantage in that they have more time to recover and more chance to land thins after that recovery. Plus they have more time to cram in transitions, since a CH sequence doesn't take 30 seconds.

    I haven't kept track of the differences in Pairs, but in Dance, the rhythms and the CD pattern are quite different. I don't know if the junior CD pattern has ever been harder than the senior CD pattern generally -- specifically different couples have different strengths and preferences. This would be the only apples and ranges comparison technically. Aside from that, why woudn't junior scores, harder to get for the juniors

    PCS-wise, the question would be if the best juniors are getting big PCS lifts by being compared to juniors and/or because they're doing the big jump-laden content that tends to boost PCS regardless of the division skated.

    Junior scores aren't dropped from the SB list, and seniors who are in 25th or lower in that list don't move up, nor do they move up when skaters retire.
     
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  28. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    20,569
    1,599
    113
    The reason they don't count the scores is not because they feel they are inflated. They don't count the scores because those aren't ISU events (which is stupid IMO, but what can you do).

    It wouldn't be far at all. It would be mean that if you're outside the system, you have absolutely no chance of improving your ranking. This is a big problem already and if you removed the possibility of skaters earning points at senior international events, you'd make the situation even worse.

    And nobody is stopping federations from sending skaters to international events.

    It all depends on the federation. Polish federation pays all the expenses but from what I heard, many federations don't.

    And that is a real shame because sometimes it results in GP spots being left unfilled. :(

    (Although that's much less of an issue now with less spots and GP minimum scores introduced)
     
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,884
    3,765
    113
    I just did some Google searches to figure out how to create pivot tables in Excel, and I'm still new at this. I know I'm missing Chapman's (AUS) SP score from Crystal Skate -- the results .pdf is now missing the SP info (except the list of judges) -- and I'm sure I've got a few that are mis-categorized. These aren't the number of individual skaters: for example, all five of Australia's Dance entries were O'Brien/Merriman, but it still means trips either the skater or Federation is funding. I have no idea why Monaco is sorting to the top, either.

    I counted the number of segments per discipline for each country at a Senior B. I didn't count Junior competition. Where there is a ".5" (except for Chapman), there was a withdrawal after the SP, but it still means someone showed up. If the Italian Federation is paying for all of those trips, 60 in total, or the German Federation, with 70 in total that a lot of money, and that's not counting any Juniors:

    Sum of Qty Column Labels
    Row Labels Dance Ladies Men Pairs Grand Total
    MON 1 1
    ARM 2 2
    AUS 5 4 10.5 19.5
    AUT 4 23 8 4 39
    AZE 8 2 10
    BEL 9 2 11
    BLR 3 4 11 3 21
    BRA 3 2 5
    BUL 4 3 4 4 15
    CAN 5 2 5 2 14
    CHN 2 2
    CRO 9 3 12
    CZE 8 12 7 27
    DEN 5 6 11
    ESP 2 5 7 14
    EST 4 9 3 16
    FIN 7 21 12 40
    FRA 1.5 5 6 3 15.5
    GBR 9 10 18 37
    GEO 2 2
    GER 9 30 27 3.5 69.5
    GRE 2 2
    HKG 6 6 12
    HUN 8.5 4 2 1 15.5
    IND 2 2
    IRL 3 3
    ISL 1 1
    ISR 4 1 5 3 13
    ITA 11 27.5 17 4 59.5
    JPN 7 5 9 21
    KAZ 3 3
    KOR 6 4 10
    LAT 4 4
    LTU 2 3 3 8
    LUX 7 7
    MEX 2 12.5 2.5 17
    NED 6 2 8
    NOR 13 13
    PHI 4 8 12
    POL 11 3 8.5 3 25.5
    PRK 1 2 3
    PUR 1 1
    ROU 2 5 7
    RSA 3 3
    RUS 13 13 15 8.5 49.5
    SIN 4 4
    SLO 19 19
    SRB 5 5
    SUI 4 10 10 24
    SVK 6 16 1 23
    SWE 11 11 3 25
    THA 5 1 6
    TPE 13 3 16
    TUR 4 3 2 9
    UKR 9 6 8 2 25
    URK 1 1
    USA 7 4 12 8 31
    UZB 1 5 6
    Grand Total 161 383 279.5 54 877.5
     
    Coco and (deleted member) like this.
  30. allezfred

    allezfred Old and Immature Admin Staff Member

    44,050
    10,573
    113
    On the other hand there is no automatic -3 GOE for doing a double jump or a double/double combination.