2012-13 ISU Grand Prix Assignments

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 21, 2012.

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  1. blancanieves

    blancanieves Member

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    Maybe less juicy but more interesting, the same 5 teams are facing each other at SC and TEB: G/P, H/D and

    Carron/Jones FRA
    Cappellini/Lanotte ITA
    Riazanova/Tkachenko RUS
     
  2. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Your version of the truth doesn't change the results, and these assignments are based on results, not impressions that some members of FSU have about those results.:rofl:
     
  3. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    What results? Zawa's score at super generous home 4CC is 25th on the SB list. That doesn't give her a spot. Only the US politicking effort can do that. Nagasu is clearly the more natural selection for NHK. And Zawa was the most natural selection for SA (instead of Flatt). The USFS just wanted to save the host pick spots for others and pushed Zawa to Japan. Many people (not the fans of Zawa or Flatt) would feel unpleasant to see such an act of favoritism.

    Last year, only two skaters with one condition got two initial overseas assignments - Wagner (SB) and Imai (WS)

    This year, four skaters with one condition got two inititial overseas assignments - Zawadzki (WS), Zhang (SB), Machida (WS), Dornbush (WS)

    Easy to guess that the US and Japan have traded Wagner and Imai last year, and Dornbush and Machida this year. But this year... at least, they needed more politicking efforts than last year.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Yes, Yes, No. If USFS did not put him in the pool, he would not have been chosen, just like with Sokolova and Sandhu, who earned two spots at their last Worlds, but their Federations didn't submit their names and effectively retired them. As a returning skater exercising his one-time option, in addition, either he or USFS had to sign that he intended to return to competition.

    Ando said that she had to sign a declaration. I'm not sure if the rules changed, or this was not articulated in the GP Announcement. In last year's GP Announcement, for "Split Couples" can be on the alternates list "if proof is given in writing by their Member that they intend to continue their competitive career", but no similar text for "Come-back" skaters, as I previously thought.

    USFS cannot give anyone two events: they can chose a skater/team for Skate America, which might be a skater/team's second event. The ISU dictates that any active team submitted by the Federation who finished top 12 at prior year's Worlds is guaranteed two, but no one Federation has control over two spots. They only can lobby, trade, and negotiate like crazy to make it happen.

    Every other skater/team skating seniors this season who was in the Top 24 WS or Top 24 SB got at least one, including those who were only one or the other, and I think it's safe to assume that the rule hasn't changed, and if USFS had submitted Farris' name, he would have been guaranteed one.

    What would USFS' bargaining chip with the Japanese Fed have been? It's hard to imagine the Japanese Fed would have had to give anything away for free, so if there was a deal or pressure, they would have demanded and gotten something in return, unless they already did.

    It's also possible they felt that Nagasu would be more competitive against their own women: Nagasu's PB (CoC) was 15.99 higher than Zawadzki's at 4C's, which you are arguing was inflated because 4C's was held in the US. I know which odds I'd like better if choosing an opponent if I were they. (I personally would take Zawadzski's skating over Nagasu's any day, but that wouldn't be the Japanese Fed's reason :).)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  5. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    IN re: NMURA- What? I don't understand how it can be considered scandalous to promote your National bronze medalist over the National 8th place finisher, if that's really what happened. It's amazing the way people can spin almost anything into sounding like a miscarriage of justice. :eek: And this is coming from someone who prefers Mirai's skating to Agnes' by a very large amount.
     
  6. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    National bronze medalist is the most deserving host pick.;)

    Browsing through the whole lists, Russia is inviting the set of Zhang, Zawadzki and Dornbush + Gold. Probably $$$ is involved.
     
  7. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. I really feel like, if I had to guess, that someone along the line agreed to sending him back to JGP unless he got 2 GP spots outright, and maybe it became clear he was only getting one, so he or his coaches pulled out. It is all conjecture but I really can't imagine that he was outright blocked from moving up, entirely against his will. Who knows exactly what was communicated...
     
  8. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    USFS would have had to use its feelers ahead of time to see if he'd get two, because if they submitted his name, he would have had to have been chosen by at least one Federation, although I think Federations can withdraw names between the submission deadline and the initial selection. I don't see any provision for pulling someone who's been assigned at the end of the initial selection and replacing them before the first version is published.
     
  9. toddlj

    toddlj Well-Known Member

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    Nagasu will certainly be first on the substitution list and I can't imagine that she will be passed over on the (likely?) chance that someone (Czisny? Ando?) will drop out. Zawadski, on the other hand, would have likely been passed over in the same scenario.
     
  10. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone stopped to consider that while Josh may had tweeted that he wanted a senior grand prix event, maybe his coach decided it was better for him mentally and physically to stay on the JGP circuit one more year?
     
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    You are right: Nagasu will first sub except for a non-host substitution at USA and RUS, where there are already three US skaters, because Czisny requested the last GP due to surgery; she would have been first sub (or possibly already have two, if she hadn't made the request).

    She, Korpi, Biryukova, Korobeynikova, Shelepen, Li at least would have been ahead of Zawadzki, the Russian Skaters at USA, CAN, CHN, FRA, and RUS host pick substitutions, since there are already three Russian skaters at RUS and JPN.

    I can't tell from last year's behavior whether they give the Top 24 WS skaters events in SB order or in WS order. If SB order, Zawadzki would have been next. If in WS order, Meite and J. Helgesson would have been ahead of her.


    If his coach felt this way, do think his coach didn't consult him and influenced USFS to leave him off the senior GP list without telling him?
     
  12. operagirl

    operagirl Active Member

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    If Czisny drops out of her GP assignment, the skater with the best chance of a GPF spot will take it. Period.
     
  13. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I actually think this is the main reason Zawadzki got two assignments - Mirai is first on the sub list and will get the second spot anyway. And Agnes now has two spots while many other skaters that are ahead of her on the season's best list still only have one and will likely stay with one. Strange situation.
     
  14. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It's certainly a possibility.

    I don't understand why so many people attach so much weight to the obviously impulsive tweet of a seventeen-year-old boy, as opposed to the rules of an international sports union and the standard practices of one of its member federations, particularly when the tweet was later retracted. It's as if they've never been or even known a seventeen-year-old boy themselves. :shuffle:
     
  15. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    I just don't get why Zawadzki always gets so many cahnces
    she is even worst than Gao, imo
     
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  16. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    If Zawadzki gets 2, then IMHO Nagasu should have certainly gotten 2 as well.
     
  17. DickButtonFan

    DickButtonFan New Member

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    Mirai didn't do well at nationals, and hasn't made it to worlds twice now. I think the USFSA made the right decision and Mirai is one of my favorites. Hopefully she'll get a TBA spot or something.

    I think Zawadzki deserved the 2 spots, when she's on she can beat some of the best which is why she was 1st after the sp at nationals. Her jumps are huge and she has great spins, MUCH better than Gao IMO, plus Agnes is the bronze medalist.

    As far as Dornbush getting 2 spots, I really don't agree with that. Jason Brown didn't have a 3A last year so he really should be junior still, we have so many other skaters in the men that can do quads and 3A's. Farris could go either way, it might be good for him to try and get a Junior Grand Prix title.
     
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  18. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Lol. I would think his coach would tell him if he thought it was better for him to stay on the JGP another season. I don't think that's what happened. I think USFS talked Josh's coaches out of it, without Josh knowing, likely bribing them by promising 2 JGP events, a likely trip to JGPF, and a trip to JW after nationals if he doesn't get a better offer in the form of 4CC and/or Worlds. Then once the assignments were released, Josh's coaches told him what the USFS said to them, thus explaining why he didn't receive an assignment, causing him to delete the tweet. This is the most logical explanation for what happened, USFS wants to be able to send him to JW if he doesn't make the world team, and they wanted to give Rippon, Miner, and Dornbush a better chance of getting 2 assignments since none of them were guaranteed 2, because without 2, none of them have a chance to make the GPF. I doubt any of them will make the GPF anyway, but USFS seems to think these 3 are the bees knees even though the international judges may think otherwise :shuffle:
     
  19. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    While you may be a huge Gracie fan, she hasn't paid her dues.
     
  20. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    If you go back over the past several years' of Skate America assignments, you'll see that the USFSA usually tries to make sure that as many of its top senior-level skaters as possible get Grand Prix assignments. After giving the National champions invitation to Skate America (assuming they want it), the Federation tends to invite at least one skater per discipline, and sometimes two, who aren't likely to be invited anywhere else, like Douglas Razzano this year, Joelle Forte last year, and Caroline Zhang the year before that.

    The fact that Gao and Flatt weren't better than Zawadzki last season -- and Flatt's drawing power as a former National champion -- probably helped them get invitations.
     
  21. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like Canada is starting to place its bets now for the Olympic games, which means picking a smaller pool of skaters to focus on to develop into contenders for the slots.

    We're deep in pairs and dance now so there is clear focus. Paul/Islam are the casualty there.

    No surprises in Men. Reynolds and Chan are likely to go to Sochi so it's now about finding a 3rd of we get that spot. I think the real contenders are Rogozine and Ten and then I think Firus if he gets the 3A. I'm not convinced about Balde...

    Ladies. Wow. Lacoste gets SC because she won nats I'm assuming. Phaneuf has been dumped and will have to win some Bs to get attention back to her. I see a real scenario where Osmond goes to London. I think the wildcard for the Windsor slot is Myriane Samson. If her training is going well she may get a look.
     
  22. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Did they add a dues-paying requirement above and beyond basic membership while I wasn't looking?
     
  23. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Agnes won the U.S. junior title in 2010, and followed that up with Junior Worlds silver. As such, she was assigned to TWO Grand Prix events in the fall of 2010. She was 4th as a senior at 2011 U.S. Nationals, was selected for and won the Junior Worlds bronze medal. As a result, she was selected for two GPs in the fall of 2011. At the 2012 U.S. Championships, she won the bronze medal and was assigned to and placed 6th at 4CCs. She received two GPs as a result. How has she been given so many chances? Seems to me, she hasn't been given chances, but instead has earned her assignments.
     
  24. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Two things interesting about the Press Release about GP Assignments:

    In the language of the release, the only skaters that are guaranteed spots are:

    • Seeded skaters (1-6)-two
    • 7-12 at prior Worlds-two
    • JGPF/JW medalists-one

    It says, "and skaters with a high seasons best score as well as those placed in the top of the World Standings can also be invited."

    (They mention nothing about "come-back" skaters or the obvious rule change that "split couples" can be assigned in the initial selection, not just the alternates list.)

    This may be the ISU being its typical, vaguely worded self, or there might have been a rule change, although the behavior -- all senior skaters in the Top 24 SB and WS got at least one -- followed last year's rules.

    The changes in GP minimums are:
    • Ladies: 113.43 vs. 117.48 in 2011-12. Cut-off is 98 SB vs. 81 SB.
    • Men: 159.66 vs. 168.60 in 2011-12. Cut of is 77 SB vs. 60 SB.
    • Pairs: 120.90 vs. 130.71 in 2011-12. Cut-off is 52 SB vs. 33 SB.
    • Dance: 109.59 vs. 115.15 in 2011-12. Cut-off is 66 SB vs. 59 SB.

    Where the GP minimum differential is ~10 points, in

    Pairs,
    • There is a 58% increase in the number of teams that made this year's GP minimum.
    • 44 SB would have made last year's GP minimum, an increase of 33.34% over last year's qualifiers.

    Men
    • There is a 28% increase in the number of Men who made this year's GP minimum
    • 61 SB would have made last year's GP minimum, an increase of 1.5%.

    In Dance, there was a decrease of 5.56 in the GP minimum, and
    • There is a 31% increase in the number of teams that made this year's GP minimum
    • 63 SB would have made last year's GP minimum, an increase of 7%.

    In Ladies, there was a decrease of 4.05, and
    • There is a 21% increase in the number of Ladies who made this year's GP minimum
    • 89 would have made last year's GP minimum, an increase of 11%.

    I think it's interesting that there would have been an increase in the number of skaters who made last year's GP minimum, even though for Men, the change is insignificant.
     
  25. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    past results means nothing if you are a headcase
    Zawadzki if she bombs pretty much gets very low scores
     
  26. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I would write Balde off just yet. We haven't seen the results of his coaching change. If he comes out and nails a couple of summer comps I think he will be in the mix. When he is on he has the most amazing 3A.

    I heard a rumor that Firus is training in Colorado Springs ... anyone down there who can report? I would love him to get a solid 3A so we have a real fight for those spots. I think Chan is a lock - short of a broken bone - but I the other one or two spots could go to any of Reynolds, Ten, Rogozine, Balde, or Firus. I'm not sure there is anyone else out there really in the running.
     
  27. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    :respec: Exactly.
     
  28. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    Joannie :shuffle:


    Assuming Joannie puts the rumours to rest and doesn't return.. then I think Osmond could be a factor..

    No I think you have nailed them.. I think it will come down to a consistent clean program and summer monitoring is going to be a major factor..
     
  29. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    Past results earn you spots on the GP so, in this case, they actually mean everything.
     
  30. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm pretty sure that the ISU is only looking at results, not skater psychology or emotional life.
     
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