2012-13 ISU Grand Prix Assignments

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 21, 2012.

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  1. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Looks like Canada is starting to place its bets now for the Olympic games, which means picking a smaller pool of skaters to focus on to develop into contenders for the slots.

    We're deep in pairs and dance now so there is clear focus. Paul/Islam are the casualty there.

    No surprises in Men. Reynolds and Chan are likely to go to Sochi so it's now about finding a 3rd of we get that spot. I think the real contenders are Rogozine and Ten and then I think Firus if he gets the 3A. I'm not convinced about Balde...

    Ladies. Wow. Lacoste gets SC because she won nats I'm assuming. Phaneuf has been dumped and will have to win some Bs to get attention back to her. I see a real scenario where Osmond goes to London. I think the wildcard for the Windsor slot is Myriane Samson. If her training is going well she may get a look.
  2. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Did they add a dues-paying requirement above and beyond basic membership while I wasn't looking?
  3. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Agnes won the U.S. junior title in 2010, and followed that up with Junior Worlds silver. As such, she was assigned to TWO Grand Prix events in the fall of 2010. She was 4th as a senior at 2011 U.S. Nationals, was selected for and won the Junior Worlds bronze medal. As a result, she was selected for two GPs in the fall of 2011. At the 2012 U.S. Championships, she won the bronze medal and was assigned to and placed 6th at 4CCs. She received two GPs as a result. How has she been given so many chances? Seems to me, she hasn't been given chances, but instead has earned her assignments.
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Two things interesting about the Press Release about GP Assignments:

    In the language of the release, the only skaters that are guaranteed spots are:

    • Seeded skaters (1-6)-two
    • 7-12 at prior Worlds-two
    • JGPF/JW medalists-one

    It says, "and skaters with a high seasons best score as well as those placed in the top of the World Standings can also be invited."

    (They mention nothing about "come-back" skaters or the obvious rule change that "split couples" can be assigned in the initial selection, not just the alternates list.)

    This may be the ISU being its typical, vaguely worded self, or there might have been a rule change, although the behavior -- all senior skaters in the Top 24 SB and WS got at least one -- followed last year's rules.

    The changes in GP minimums are:
    • Ladies: 113.43 vs. 117.48 in 2011-12. Cut-off is 98 SB vs. 81 SB.
    • Men: 159.66 vs. 168.60 in 2011-12. Cut of is 77 SB vs. 60 SB.
    • Pairs: 120.90 vs. 130.71 in 2011-12. Cut-off is 52 SB vs. 33 SB.
    • Dance: 109.59 vs. 115.15 in 2011-12. Cut-off is 66 SB vs. 59 SB.

    Where the GP minimum differential is ~10 points, in

    Pairs,
    • There is a 58% increase in the number of teams that made this year's GP minimum.
    • 44 SB would have made last year's GP minimum, an increase of 33.34% over last year's qualifiers.

    Men
    • There is a 28% increase in the number of Men who made this year's GP minimum
    • 61 SB would have made last year's GP minimum, an increase of 1.5%.

    In Dance, there was a decrease of 5.56 in the GP minimum, and
    • There is a 31% increase in the number of teams that made this year's GP minimum
    • 63 SB would have made last year's GP minimum, an increase of 7%.

    In Ladies, there was a decrease of 4.05, and
    • There is a 21% increase in the number of Ladies who made this year's GP minimum
    • 89 would have made last year's GP minimum, an increase of 11%.

    I think it's interesting that there would have been an increase in the number of skaters who made last year's GP minimum, even though for Men, the change is insignificant.
  5. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    past results means nothing if you are a headcase
    Zawadzki if she bombs pretty much gets very low scores
  6. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I would write Balde off just yet. We haven't seen the results of his coaching change. If he comes out and nails a couple of summer comps I think he will be in the mix. When he is on he has the most amazing 3A.

    I heard a rumor that Firus is training in Colorado Springs ... anyone down there who can report? I would love him to get a solid 3A so we have a real fight for those spots. I think Chan is a lock - short of a broken bone - but I the other one or two spots could go to any of Reynolds, Ten, Rogozine, Balde, or Firus. I'm not sure there is anyone else out there really in the running.
  7. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    :respec: Exactly.
  8. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    Joannie :shuffle:


    Assuming Joannie puts the rumours to rest and doesn't return.. then I think Osmond could be a factor..

    No I think you have nailed them.. I think it will come down to a consistent clean program and summer monitoring is going to be a major factor..
  9. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    Past results earn you spots on the GP so, in this case, they actually mean everything.
  10. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm pretty sure that the ISU is only looking at results, not skater psychology or emotional life.
  11. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

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    Everybody gets low scores if they bomb. You just don't like Agnes for some reason, and that's fine. But stop stating that she gets too many chances when all she has done is work hard, performed well enough to earn assignments, and, well, try.
  12. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Exactly: the ISU's selection criteria is entirely results-based and agnostic to skater psychology and emotional life: it's the Federations that negotiate for their skaters at other events and strategically choose their host picks and skaters' competition (whenever possible in the selection order) at their own events.

    It doesn't matter if fans consider a skater an inconsistent headcase or the greatest arteeste on the planet and more deserving than someone who meets the criteria.
  13. Lara

    Lara Well-Known Member

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    Cynthia recently tweeted about apartment hunting in Toronto, so safe to assume she's committed to training for next season.
  14. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Fair point on Balde. I'll keep him on the short list...but deeper on it :)
    Oh God how I wish we qualify 3 men for Sochi but this will be so hard. Reynolds skated so well but there were a number of guys who finished below him who could have just as easily beaten him...
  15. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Well-Known Member

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    I have great faith that Balde will show improvement after his coaching and choreographer change. IMHO, he is in the mix but needs to get more experience and opportunities.
    Guess I will have to be satisfied with Senior Bs.

    Just can't warm up to Rogozine or Firus. Balde, on the other hand......
  16. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Indy should be interesting! My guess is Z/B will get Nebelhorn and if they do well at both events will get the TBA spot. I don't see Y/R or D/L being SA ready because of the new partnership, especially Mark and Lindsay as they haven't been together long and Mark has been with one partner for such a long time it has to be a big adjustment.
  17. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    When the did the USFS turn into the Chinese federation? :eek:
  18. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    me too ;) he has that 'star' quality that is missing from the others.. although some potential with Firus..:p
  19. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    This is how all federations work. You have to think strategically when you make decisions on which skaters you are going to send to which competitions. With so many skaters to choose from I imagine it's even more difficult for the USFS. You're never going to please everyone.
  20. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    I'd completely agree with you when it is the USFSA's choice, but when an athlete is guaranteed a spot under the ISU rules and then is apparently denied the spot by the USFSA, that's wrong. Should Barbie Long go out on the JGP? That's completely up to the USFSA. Should Abbott be denied the GP he earned because the USFSA was very disappointed in his results last year? I don't think so. Brown seems to have earned a spot based on last year's results. Unless the rules changed making that not so, or unless he violated some "morals clause," if he wanted the GP he should have gotten it. Ditto with Farris.

    That doesn't mean that the USFSA shouldn't speak with the skater & coach about why they think Plan B might be better -- but in the end, it would seem that it ought to be the skater's choice, and it seemed that Farris, at least, was blindsided.
  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I can see why the Chinese federation might want to "deny" Han Yan the Senior Grand Prix next season if they feel they might need him to medal at 2013 Junior Worlds and ensure the maximum number of JGP spots the following season. However, USFS has TWO JGP Final and Junior World medalists in Farris and Jason Brown, so why not keep Brown back and let Farris move up IF those, indeed, are their respective choices?

    ETA:
    I've observed over the past few years that USFS has been filling the Skate America TBA slots in August (after Indy Challenge, Lake Placid Dance and/or Champs Camp) or early September and have not been waiting for the results from Nebelhorn Trophy. There may be an ISU deadline for filling the TBA host spots?
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Can't he go to both Junior and Senior Worlds? I think Yan Han has a much better shot of getting China that second spot for Sochi. Song is a big point getter when he gets his jumps done, but once he doesn't everything falls flat (like at Worlds when his PCS matched those of VDP and Voronov :shuffle:). Yan Han actually scored some very decent PCS on the junior international scene this past season (on par with Farris and Brown!) and he also has a quad and 3axel.
  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    In theory, yes, but Junior and Senior Worlds are only one week apart next season -- Feb. 25-Mar. 3, 2013 in Milan, Italy and Mar. 10-17 in London, ON.
  24. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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    I really like Andrei Rogozine. He's rough around the edges, but I think he's got some great talent. With the right coaching and good programs, he could do well over the next few years. Plus, he's a super nice kid.
  25. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Holding Han Yan back might make sense if China FILLED all their JGP slots, but that's not always the case. I agree it would make sense for USFS to let Farris move up while keeping Brown on the JGP until he gets his 3A.

    Maybe USFS doesn't see that many potential JGP medalwinners coming up (with the exception of Nathan Chen, who is very small and young), so they want to keep bringing in as many JGP medals as possible.

    But it is galling to see Dmitriev, 14th at JW, 37th WR and 29th SB, getting an invitation while JW silver medalist Farris gets none.
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Why is it galling? Farris very likely would have received at least 1, of not 2, GP assignments had his name been submitted by USFS.

    I've posted a version of this before, but competing at the senior level nationally and internationally presents a very different kind of mental pressure/challenge, and I believe Farris can still work on improving his consistency in both programs at the same competition (building on what he did at the end of his season at 2012 Junior Worlds), regardless of what level he competes at internationally. In fact, he may be dealing with the pressure of high expectations in the coming season (matching/surpassing his junior international results in 2011-12), which could be a good thing if he is aiming for success in the long run.
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  27. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    It *seems* that way perhaps, but was it really? There's no facts to really support that he was "blindsided" by what happened.
  28. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    THAT'S why it's galling!
  29. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    How the heck did Artur Dmitriev get even one assignment next season? I could see if it was as a host pick for the COR but he got picked for the COC instead. :confused: I also thought that one country could not have three skaters be picked for a GP unless it's from their home country yet i see three Russian girls at TEB but only one US Lady. What's up with that?
  30. toddlj

    toddlj Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, the only evidence we have is the now-deleted tweet, and even that could be interpreted to mean that he wanted to do senior; but his coach talked him out of it, or the USFSA talked him out of it, or his family talked him out of it, or he thought the better of it himself after discussion. To claim he had no say in the issue is an assumption, not a fact.
    haribobo and (deleted member) like this.
  31. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    3 per country has always been allowed regardless of it being host country or not. Dmitriev deserves his spot if Russia submitted him. He's probably one of the top 5 guys competing for Russia at the moment, so whatevs. Let him compete and calm down.
  32. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    ITA. The tweet made it seem like Josh wasn't aware he would be competing on the JGP again, meaning when the USFS had the discussion with Josh's coaches where they convinced them to have him stay junior another season, Josh was left out of it. That's not right. I can sort of understand the USFS trying to talk him into a different decision, but if they are doing that, the skater in question should certainly be involved in the conversation. Even then, if the skater has a GP event guaranteed by a SB score, it's indication that the ISU considers he/she ready to compete on the GP, so the skater and coaching team should be able to make their decision without the USFS butting in.

    They want to have the option of sending Josh to JW because they know he's a strong skater likely to help get maximum JGP spots for the US, but I also suspect they wanted to give the likes of Rippon, Miner, and Dornbush the best chance of getting 2 GPs each, and that kind of irks me. If it was Josh's decision to stay on the JGP, then I would totally respect that, but if he wanted to move up, the USFS should have let him even if it meant one/two/all of Rippon, Dornbush, and Miner would only get 1 assignment, Josh earned his 1 assignment and skated really well last season, so his getting 1 or 2 GP invites at the expense of Rippon or Dornbush not getting a 2nd would have been understandable. I just hope he gets treated fairly at Nationals...his performances at JW would have, IMO, made a strong case for being sent to Worlds this season, and if he skates well at next year's Nationals, I hope USFS doesn't hold his scores back to favor someone like Rippon or Dornbush unless they really earn it. If Josh can put the 4t in his FS with some success and skate otherwise like he did most of last season, then I'd definitely consider him a contender for the 2nd Worlds spot, the strength of his 3a coupled with a 4t would put him at an advantage over Rippon and Miner, and then Mahbanoozadeh and Razzano don't get as strong PCS marks as Farris internationally, and Dornbush really needs to start delivering to prove he's in the hunt again.
  33. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    But Dmitriev's WR, SB and JW stats did not put him in the guaranteed group. If Russia wanted him in the GP, they could have assigned him a COR spot. The big ?! is that he got an invitation.
  34. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Also as soon as all of the submitted skaters guaranteed their spots get them and the host picks are assigned, the hosts can choose anyone from the Top 75 SB list, instead of giving those guaranteed one a second. Dmitriev is SB 30, and his high score was from a JGP, where there are shorter programs and one less element. (The junior solo jump limitation in SP wouldn't have been a factor last season, since it was the lutz. Junior Men were limited to a flying sit spin and camel spin with one change of foot in the SP; Senior Men had limitations on only one spin, a camel or sit spin with one change of foot.)

    Dmitriev's SB score was .76 below (SB 29) Rogozine's at Rostelecom Cup, and he got JPN.
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  35. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    China is not a country to care about maximizing JGP spots. They usually don't send skaters to JGP without pair competitions. They don't even use seven spots for any disciplines. If Yan moves up to the senior next season, only sure men are Zhang He and Jin Boyang. I think there are two reasons to let Yan stay junior.

    As long as there's no chance for Chinese men to medal at Sochi Olympics (for that purpose, winning a medal at 2013 worlds is essential), they want to give an elder skater (Song) the chance in order of seniority (by virtue of Confucian values). Song can prove his "worth" under less pressured conditions and prepare for worlds. If Song should faces Yan at CoC, the international judges could dump him easily. That's not the case the Chinese federation wants.

    They really care about qualifying for WTT. Considering 4CC is in Osaka (where Japan will send the A team) and China has only one worlds spot, Yan has the best chance gaining maximum points at JW. In this year, they lost to Italy by a small margin. That's mainly because of Kostner's "contribution". Very few people expect she can repeat that. If China could gain about the same points, they have the better chance in next year.
    Last edited: May 25, 2012
  36. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    I'm curious to know where do you get the idea that China cares about qualifying for WTT? Is there a link that you can point me to?
  37. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    China is a country always place the state ahead of individuals and groups. Both Confucianism and communism support that doctrine. The format of WTT is very attractive for them. That's a good chance to prove the strength of the Chinese state sports. In other words, they don't want to lose to "small countries" like Italy.
  38. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I agree that Chinese federation doesn't use up their JGP spots, and supporting an elder skater (Song) could be a factor. That said, I am not sure how much they care about WTT. I think perhaps they wanna keep the option of Yan Han doing jr world open.
  39. fscric

    fscric Active Member

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    I agree with this.
  40. sap5

    sap5 Well-Known Member

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    wrong thread!
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