2012-13 ISU Grand Prix Assignments

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 21, 2012.

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  1. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    Firus has aged out of juniors. I get the world ranking part, but I would have thought SC would have left two spots TBA and then sent all three skaters (Ten, Balde, & Firus) out to the same summer comp and based the selection on the results of the comp, and perhaps with the requirement that a clean 3A is needed as well. Now, maybe they are doing just that. They could replace Firus if he doesn't skate well this summer, couldn't they?
  2. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Yes. The host nation controls host picks. Skate Canada has frequently replaced skaters previously assigned to JGP events, but it is somewhat unusual to do that in the GP unless there has been illness or injury.
  3. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    And that is why it seems odd. Why would SC put themselves in the position of having a man at Skate Canada without even a hope of landing a 3A when they have two skaters, who placed higher at Nationals, both landing them (I'm actually not sure at Ten and where his 3A is ....)

    I love Firus' skating and I am a fan, but even to me something seems wrong. Balde made a coaching change prior to Nationals and even in the short time leading up the Nationals you could see the change. It will be interesting to see how the summer comps go. I think Firus and Ten will both be a BC Summerskate so there will be a head to head comparison on home turf.
  4. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    The USFS is making a huge mistake if they decided not to give Josh at least 1 GP assignment. They seem to be in denial that the US Men need to rebuild and that can't happen when you give two events to Weir who is not part of the future. Have they not seen the US Mens roster? Abbott is the only one who can really compete against the best when he's on but he's a head case. Rippon will never be a champion same with Miner. Dornbush does have potential but it's wait and see with him Armin hasn't shown he's reaDY to go to the next level yet either. Same with Razzano. Mroz and Aaron can jump but not much else. Messing has a lot of work to do. Carriere came back but i don't see him finishing higher then he did this year. I don't see a champion in any of them certainly not internationally. So why not see what Farris has and give him some much needed experience a year before Sochi instead of thinking Weir or Lysacek are going to ride in and save the day?
    Last edited: May 22, 2012
  5. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Could USFS have blocked Weir from returning? Would that even be possible? (It has already been covered his getting two events has nothing to do with USFS, since they didn't select him for Skate America.)
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Why or how would USFS "block" Weir from returning when they've listed him in their International Selection Pool?

    ETA: Although filling out all the required ISP paperwork could have deterred him, perhaps. ;)
    Last edited: May 22, 2012
  7. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    My question is COULD they have blocked him? Could USFS refused to have put Weir in the pool for selection, or as a returning skater, does he make that distinction with the ISU?

    It is my understanding USFS did not give Weir two events, by being a returning skater he got two events. So I'm wondering if it would have ever been a possibility that Weir could have not gotten events. Blaming him for Josh not having a GP seems silly.
  8. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Ooh! The sharp-tongued Sylvia is back! :cheer2:
  9. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    That's a lot of assuming based on 1 tweet which has since been deleted. Who knows the actual story but you cannot say that USFS was pushing Weir and not Farris since neither one was assigned to Skate America- Weir earned his spots based on the ISU rules and Farris presumably was guaranteed 1 but we don't even really know that since this year's rules have not been published yet. So he very well could've skated lights out this summer and gotten the Skate America TBA spot and so could have Jason Brown or anyone else. Armin's already gotten the SA spot 2 years running- Razzano got it last year so he gets another shot this year by virtue of finishing top 5 at Nationals and displaying decent potential. I'd agree in a perfect world Josh should've gotten a GP but what other skater who finished 21st at Nationals 2 years ago (granted he was crazy injured) and 16th last year would get any GP spots? He's done tremendously well at his junior events but if somewhere along the line, he or his team indicated that he had some interest in doing the JGP/Jr. Worlds, then its easy to see how he'd be left out of GP spots, especially if the rules have changed this year.

    People are always so quick to shout USFS conspiracy theory when in reality, very little of the SC, CoC, Rostelcom, NHK, and TEB assignments are controlled by USFS. And there's a ton of competing agendas as far as the SA spots are concerned.
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  10. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    Two overseas assignments for Dornbush and Zawadzki look rather strange (their only criteria are lowside top 24 of WS). It's apparent the USFS has made major politicking for them. I can guess one of them was traded with Machida at SA. But two skaters? I don't think the JSF would take Zawadzki ahead of Nagasu unless the US side demanded. Nagasu has the higher WS, SB and of course, popularity in Japan.
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  11. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

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    I do agree that the federation must be doing some negotiations for certain skaters since many of these assignments did not make sense. If we just go strictly with the ISU rules, the math did not add up. USFS has their own skaters to politicking behind, same as other federations, Canadian or Russians or others...
  12. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    So is Cynthia retiring or did she just request to not go to SC and didn't get any other assignments?
  13. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know she's still training with Orser and SC still has a TBA spot for the Ladies. I suppose they could give that spot to Najarro or DeSanctis but I don't really see that happening.
  14. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Dornbush yes, a bit strange, but Zawadzki is the reigning US bronze medalist with *phenomenal* jumping ability. There's no reason for her not to get some politicking from USFS, regardless of how many times she blew it in the FS last season. Based on the Alissa surgery story, it sounds like she also would've gotten 2 assignments had it not been for the injury, so its not like they skipped over Alissa to politick for Agnes, not that I'd have blamed them for doing so....
  15. foreverkwanfan

    foreverkwanfan New Member

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    No Evan, is he not coming back?

    I think the USFSA has a lot of faith in Rippon, which is good, he has been improving and is becoming a stronger competitor.
    Shocked that there is no Evan.
  16. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Agnes was also a respectable 6th at 4CC.
  17. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    Gilles/Poirier & Hubbell/Donohue face each other at both of their events. :watch:
  18. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    Ah I didnt even notice! Very juicy. :watch:
  19. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    The home 4CC was very generous for US skaters. Mere 157 points at the same comp where Wagner was given 192 is not respectable at all. As many people have said, her 3rd place at US nationals is pretty dubious. I don't understand why Zawadzki is so favored. Big jumps and high height usually can't go together with consistency.
  20. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Eyeballing the TBA at SA for US pairs -

    I bet it will come down to a 2d assignment for any one of Yankowskas / Reagan, Davis / Ladwig, or Castelli / Shnapir, or perhaps a 1st assignment for Zhang / Bartholomay.

    C/S might get an edge if they are landing throw Quads.

    FWIW, Y/R will have 2 months together as a pair longer than D/L

    Donlan / Speroff are already there.

    The summer comps and Nebelhorn will be verryyy important for US pairs!
  21. blancanieves

    blancanieves Member

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    Maybe less juicy but more interesting, the same 5 teams are facing each other at SC and TEB: G/P, H/D and

    Carron/Jones FRA
    Cappellini/Lanotte ITA
    Riazanova/Tkachenko RUS
  22. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Your version of the truth doesn't change the results, and these assignments are based on results, not impressions that some members of FSU have about those results.:rofl:
  23. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    What results? Zawa's score at super generous home 4CC is 25th on the SB list. That doesn't give her a spot. Only the US politicking effort can do that. Nagasu is clearly the more natural selection for NHK. And Zawa was the most natural selection for SA (instead of Flatt). The USFS just wanted to save the host pick spots for others and pushed Zawa to Japan. Many people (not the fans of Zawa or Flatt) would feel unpleasant to see such an act of favoritism.

    Last year, only two skaters with one condition got two initial overseas assignments - Wagner (SB) and Imai (WS)

    This year, four skaters with one condition got two inititial overseas assignments - Zawadzki (WS), Zhang (SB), Machida (WS), Dornbush (WS)

    Easy to guess that the US and Japan have traded Wagner and Imai last year, and Dornbush and Machida this year. But this year... at least, they needed more politicking efforts than last year.
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  24. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Yes, Yes, No. If USFS did not put him in the pool, he would not have been chosen, just like with Sokolova and Sandhu, who earned two spots at their last Worlds, but their Federations didn't submit their names and effectively retired them. As a returning skater exercising his one-time option, in addition, either he or USFS had to sign that he intended to return to competition.

    Ando said that she had to sign a declaration. I'm not sure if the rules changed, or this was not articulated in the GP Announcement. In last year's GP Announcement, for "Split Couples" can be on the alternates list "if proof is given in writing by their Member that they intend to continue their competitive career", but no similar text for "Come-back" skaters, as I previously thought.

    USFS cannot give anyone two events: they can chose a skater/team for Skate America, which might be a skater/team's second event. The ISU dictates that any active team submitted by the Federation who finished top 12 at prior year's Worlds is guaranteed two, but no one Federation has control over two spots. They only can lobby, trade, and negotiate like crazy to make it happen.

    Every other skater/team skating seniors this season who was in the Top 24 WS or Top 24 SB got at least one, including those who were only one or the other, and I think it's safe to assume that the rule hasn't changed, and if USFS had submitted Farris' name, he would have been guaranteed one.

    What would USFS' bargaining chip with the Japanese Fed have been? It's hard to imagine the Japanese Fed would have had to give anything away for free, so if there was a deal or pressure, they would have demanded and gotten something in return, unless they already did.

    It's also possible they felt that Nagasu would be more competitive against their own women: Nagasu's PB (CoC) was 15.99 higher than Zawadzki's at 4C's, which you are arguing was inflated because 4C's was held in the US. I know which odds I'd like better if choosing an opponent if I were they. (I personally would take Zawadzski's skating over Nagasu's any day, but that wouldn't be the Japanese Fed's reason :).)
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  25. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    IN re: NMURA- What? I don't understand how it can be considered scandalous to promote your National bronze medalist over the National 8th place finisher, if that's really what happened. It's amazing the way people can spin almost anything into sounding like a miscarriage of justice. :eek: And this is coming from someone who prefers Mirai's skating to Agnes' by a very large amount.
  26. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    National bronze medalist is the most deserving host pick.;)

    Browsing through the whole lists, Russia is inviting the set of Zhang, Zawadzki and Dornbush + Gold. Probably $$$ is involved.
  27. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. I really feel like, if I had to guess, that someone along the line agreed to sending him back to JGP unless he got 2 GP spots outright, and maybe it became clear he was only getting one, so he or his coaches pulled out. It is all conjecture but I really can't imagine that he was outright blocked from moving up, entirely against his will. Who knows exactly what was communicated...
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    USFS would have had to use its feelers ahead of time to see if he'd get two, because if they submitted his name, he would have had to have been chosen by at least one Federation, although I think Federations can withdraw names between the submission deadline and the initial selection. I don't see any provision for pulling someone who's been assigned at the end of the initial selection and replacing them before the first version is published.
  29. toddlj

    toddlj Well-Known Member

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    Nagasu will certainly be first on the substitution list and I can't imagine that she will be passed over on the (likely?) chance that someone (Czisny? Ando?) will drop out. Zawadski, on the other hand, would have likely been passed over in the same scenario.
  30. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone stopped to consider that while Josh may had tweeted that he wanted a senior grand prix event, maybe his coach decided it was better for him mentally and physically to stay on the JGP circuit one more year?
  31. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    You are right: Nagasu will first sub except for a non-host substitution at USA and RUS, where there are already three US skaters, because Czisny requested the last GP due to surgery; she would have been first sub (or possibly already have two, if she hadn't made the request).

    She, Korpi, Biryukova, Korobeynikova, Shelepen, Li at least would have been ahead of Zawadzki, the Russian Skaters at USA, CAN, CHN, FRA, and RUS host pick substitutions, since there are already three Russian skaters at RUS and JPN.

    I can't tell from last year's behavior whether they give the Top 24 WS skaters events in SB order or in WS order. If SB order, Zawadzki would have been next. If in WS order, Meite and J. Helgesson would have been ahead of her.


    If his coach felt this way, do think his coach didn't consult him and influenced USFS to leave him off the senior GP list without telling him?
  32. operagirl

    operagirl Active Member

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    If Czisny drops out of her GP assignment, the skater with the best chance of a GPF spot will take it. Period.
  33. babayaga

    babayaga Active Member

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    I actually think this is the main reason Zawadzki got two assignments - Mirai is first on the sub list and will get the second spot anyway. And Agnes now has two spots while many other skaters that are ahead of her on the season's best list still only have one and will likely stay with one. Strange situation.
  34. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It's certainly a possibility.

    I don't understand why so many people attach so much weight to the obviously impulsive tweet of a seventeen-year-old boy, as opposed to the rules of an international sports union and the standard practices of one of its member federations, particularly when the tweet was later retracted. It's as if they've never been or even known a seventeen-year-old boy themselves. :shuffle:
  35. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    I just don't get why Zawadzki always gets so many cahnces
    she is even worst than Gao, imo
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  36. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    If Zawadzki gets 2, then IMHO Nagasu should have certainly gotten 2 as well.
  37. DickButtonFan

    DickButtonFan New Member

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    Mirai didn't do well at nationals, and hasn't made it to worlds twice now. I think the USFSA made the right decision and Mirai is one of my favorites. Hopefully she'll get a TBA spot or something.

    I think Zawadzki deserved the 2 spots, when she's on she can beat some of the best which is why she was 1st after the sp at nationals. Her jumps are huge and she has great spins, MUCH better than Gao IMO, plus Agnes is the bronze medalist.

    As far as Dornbush getting 2 spots, I really don't agree with that. Jason Brown didn't have a 3A last year so he really should be junior still, we have so many other skaters in the men that can do quads and 3A's. Farris could go either way, it might be good for him to try and get a Junior Grand Prix title.
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  38. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Lol. I would think his coach would tell him if he thought it was better for him to stay on the JGP another season. I don't think that's what happened. I think USFS talked Josh's coaches out of it, without Josh knowing, likely bribing them by promising 2 JGP events, a likely trip to JGPF, and a trip to JW after nationals if he doesn't get a better offer in the form of 4CC and/or Worlds. Then once the assignments were released, Josh's coaches told him what the USFS said to them, thus explaining why he didn't receive an assignment, causing him to delete the tweet. This is the most logical explanation for what happened, USFS wants to be able to send him to JW if he doesn't make the world team, and they wanted to give Rippon, Miner, and Dornbush a better chance of getting 2 assignments since none of them were guaranteed 2, because without 2, none of them have a chance to make the GPF. I doubt any of them will make the GPF anyway, but USFS seems to think these 3 are the bees knees even though the international judges may think otherwise :shuffle:
  39. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    While you may be a huge Gracie fan, she hasn't paid her dues.
  40. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    If you go back over the past several years' of Skate America assignments, you'll see that the USFSA usually tries to make sure that as many of its top senior-level skaters as possible get Grand Prix assignments. After giving the National champions invitation to Skate America (assuming they want it), the Federation tends to invite at least one skater per discipline, and sometimes two, who aren't likely to be invited anywhere else, like Douglas Razzano this year, Joelle Forte last year, and Caroline Zhang the year before that.

    The fact that Gao and Flatt weren't better than Zawadzki last season -- and Flatt's drawing power as a former National champion -- probably helped them get invitations.
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