Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 21, 2012.
Yes, that's the most likely case. French federation might have considered that.
Well last year, her skate at SC was pretty bad, very tentative, 5th in the SP and 5th in the LP for a 151 score, yet only a week later at CoC, she was 2nd in both SP and LP with a 173 score behind only Kostner. Went up 20+ points in a week. Her silver medal at TEB was in the 2010-11 season.
But they had no right to consider that. According to the rules anyway.
What rule? The French federation can ignore Nagasu if they want a relatively weak field. Any rules issued from the ISU are just guidelines, not mandatory. I'd like to see Nagasu at NHK trophy. So I shall welcome their consideration.
IF the French federation had chosen Phaneuf as a replacement. Do you think anyone (from the ISU or other federations) protests their decision? I don't think so. In the case of GPS, the host federations always have their choices and they are respected.
Since Zijun Li has been removed, maybe it was simply a data entry mistake (kind of like when the ISU recently added Katarina KNEZEVIC to the Skate America roster). Or maybe someone at USFS challenged the choice based on their interpretation of the replacement rules:
The alternate list needs to be worked through in ranking order for the top 24 ranked skaters/couples according to their Season’s Best. All skaters/couples of the alternate list will be grouped in top ranked groups of five (5) skaters, out of which the respective Organizing Member may pick one skater/couple for invitation.
I'm not a lawyer and I've never played one on TV, but it does sound like the second sentence is meant to start with #25 on the seasons best list. Otherwise, then the second sentence nullifies the first and the mention of top 24 being worked through in ranked order wouldn't even need to be there. Seems that the host pick for the LOC is much looser than last season, but still some definite rules for replacements.
I think when the dust settles, Nagasu will probably get another assignment, whether it's another GP or senior B. It's probably too early to say Nagasu is robbed of an assignment.
I wish Nagasu were assigned to SA (for my own selfish reasons ), but then USFS has assigned two 5th place nationals finishers to SA (Razzano and Gao), and it is probably good to spread the wealth around.
I know, and it makes me feel bek-ish that bothers me
Im not going to go on, as I agree with most people. I think its ridiculous that we are even having to have this discussion. Mirai should have been given a 2nd Grand Prix at this point. I know that no one likes to follow rules, but they are there for a reason. I hope she is given one soon.
Like others pointed out: According to the ISU rules, Nagasu should have been chosen.
In the past they had more leeway and it lead to weak fields and host countries doing each others favours. Therefore, other rules had been in place.
Even if Mirai still gets another GP I am still pissed that the rules are not followed.
If they had chose Phaneuf, I would have protested even more.
So any guesses for the two open spots in SC and NHK due to Marley/Brubaker split??
Next 5 in line from the SB list (not counting teams doing JGP):
Vise & Baldwin (already at Skate Canada)
James & CIpres (likely will get the TBA at TEB)
Gerboldt & Enbert (already at Skate Canada)
Hausch & Wende
Steele & Schultz (are they still together???)
MY guess is H&W will get Skate Canada and Gerboldt&Enbert willl get NHK Trophy.
You mean if the host feds follow the "suggestions" in the GP Announcement?
What FSU folks "pointed out" doesn't matter. The ISU and host federations decide. As long as there's no penalty for not following "rules", they are just guidelines. Some FSU folks pointed out that the Japanese and French federations didn't follow the GP assignment rules for men, but "rules" themselves have changed instead.
Of course, the ISU GP rules are a hot mess, thats for sure. But they are still chosing from the next 5 in line (Li was the exception thank to 3 russian ladies already booked at TEB, the rules are allowing Nagasu being left out so far so Im not wuzrobbing her yet )
Anyway, I just want Gerboldt & Enbert to get their 2nd event right now so the RUS fed has no choise but to give Martiusheva & Rogonov the TBA at Cup of Russia.
If Plushenko is doing a show in St Petersburg on the 7th, does that take him out of the running for the CoR TBA?
I would think it would, but who knows with anything about this season at this point
Due to the announced MARLEY / BRUBAKER split, there are now two open slots: SC and NHK. Who's on top of the subs list?
Doesn't CoR competition start on the 9th? Everything is possible!
What section in the GP announcement allows the French Fed to bypass 1. the top-ranked Ladies skater in the Top 24 and 2. an eligible Ladies skater in the first group of five -- i.e., not already assigned; no three US Ladies already assigned -- to select a skater from the second group of five?
I don't know when the GP Ladies PDF update was published but the latest version dated August 10 does include Gao's name with the "(new)" designation for TEB.
Evan Lysacek's name was added to the GP Men PDF today (August 15) for Skate America - ditto for Castelli/Shnapir in the GP Pairs PDF (Marley/Brubaker's names have been crossed out ), and Cannuscio/McManus in the Dance PDF.
Exactly. And that bothers me.
Like its been said many times. Its not clear from that mess of an announcement if the Top 24 in SB are priority to get their 2nd event or whether they should go directly to pick from the groups of 5. The way the substitutes have been chosen Im inclined to think they are going by the later scenario.
Then for the TEB after Korpi got COC and considering no russian ladies allowed the next 5 would be: Nagasu, Li, Gao, Lacoste, Joshie with Zijun being picked. After her withdraw they chose Gao again over Mirai. Not ideal, but within the frame of convoluted rules.
In the end its all a matter of interpretation so they can turn around the rules as they please as long as its not explicitly forbidden.
The rules state: "The alternate list needs to be worked through in ranking order for the top 24 ranked skaters/couples according to their season's best." They specifically call out this treatment separately from the Top 75 skaters. What we've discussed is that this contradicts the next statement, which is: "All skaters on the alternates list will be grouped in top ranked groups of (5) skaters, out of which the respective Organizing Member may pick one skater/couple for invitation." It does not say that as soon as one is chosen, someone from the next group down replaces the assigned one in the first group.
I don't even like Nagasu's skating, so this isn't wuzrobbed because it was Nagasu who was bypassed. They do have resources who can write what they mean, not the mess they publish. The concept behind the new alternates rules starting last year is to stop host Federations from picking the cheapest and/or weakest competition for their own athletes. The difference between a skater who had the 11th highest score (173.22) and the skaters who had the 24th (157.70) and 30th (152.48) highest scores is significant, especially when compared to Silete (36th, 148.18) and Marrocco (69th, 126.97).
Don't forget that Gao was a host pick at SA so the assignment at TEB is technically her first "real" assignment, so it makes more sense that Gao would get one assignment before Nagasu would get a 2nd.
That was also my point. There's a contradiction between option a) First top 24 SB then the others and option b) All possible alternates get chosen from groups of 5. And by the way the subs have been chose is clearly they are going with option b). and yes you can argue that is according to the rules to move the next in line to the "group of 5" once one skater is assigned because otherwise you will only be left with one skater with no other option by the time the fifth alternated needs to be picked. As long as it does not explicitly forbid it, the federations can get away with it and interpret these crazy rules the more convenient for them.
The ISU's inability or unwillingness to write clear, unambiguous rules is truly remarkable. I'm guessing they must like the flexibility this provides, or they would have sought assistance from someone competent at rule writing or at least posted draft-for-comment versions that can be picked apart before finalization. It truly is not rocket science. And they are clearly not rocket scientists.
Using last year's original assignments, withdrawals, and lists they could have tested the procedure in a group and agreed, and then made sure the rules unambiguously specified what is to happen. The pattern of openings in GP assignments is not amazingly different from year-to-year: Host country skaters become injured or retire, invited non-host country skaters become injured or retire, previously highly ranked skaters who were out with injuries last year come back, and eligible retired skaters exercise the option to return, and then back out. Skaters make qualifying scores in recognized late summer internationals. Pairs/Couples break up and re-form in new pairings. Some host countries do not have three eligible competitors/teams for one or more of the events.
Why is that different than the initial selection, where there is a set order in which the Federations choose, and the last Fed to select gets whichever 1-3 seed, 4-6 seed, 7-9 skater/team doesn't have two, whichever split couple or Top 24 not Top 12 at Worlds who is guaranteed one and doesn't have one, etc.? It's too early to argue that it's too late to get a visa for a replacement skater, etc.
Didnt the announcement come out after the initial gp assignments were announced? I thought they were
making the rules fit whatever gp decisions that were already made
The announcement has been published after the initial selections for at least the last two seasons, but the at least some of the decisions/changes were discussed here before both the initial selection and the document came out.
So they are working through the list of skaters who were eligible for a non-host pick before they get to the sub list? Does that make sense?
No, it makes no sense.
Do they? Because the average ISU publication gives the impression that the ISU's primary objective is obfuscation, not clarity.
They do: they choose not to use them.
Caitlin YANKOWSKAS / Joshua REAGAN are added to the roster for NHK, and Lindsay DAVIS / Mark LADWIG to Skate Canada: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3673
Updated today on the ISU site: 2nd GP assignments for Lindsay Davis/Mark Ladwig (Skate Canada) and Caitlin Yankowskas/Joshua Reagan (NHK) - they have been selected to replace Marley/Brubaker.
ETA: I somehow missed seeing the post right above mine! Looks like Vise/Baldwin (the pair with the highest SB score with 1 GP) were passed over for NHK.
^Excellent opportunities for D/L and Y/R! I've seen promising programs from D/L this summer. But, not too much from Y/R. I hope Y/R can start to 'gel' and bring it this Fall!
Damn OF COURSE I forgot all new teams with a previous Top 10 partner have priority over the regular alternates.. dont like that rule at all..
I think that GP ticket buyers would rather see Caitlin Y over a Baldwin brother.
That makes sense: the top of the alternates list is Split Couples who placed 7-12 at WC's with their previous partners, and Ladwig fills the bill. It also makes sense that they specified 7-12 and applied it to 6th place finisher Yankowskas
Worse this year, since last year, they got one for each qualifying split (aside from host picks) -- Chock/Bates earned one each from previous partnerships -- but this year, they got a shot at initial assignments and, by being at the top of the list, were first in line for a second.
Yes that's not fair at all to the already established teams.
Separate names with a comma.