2012-13 ISU Grand Prix Assignments

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 21, 2012.

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  1. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he did. I'm not sure Twitter is the best place for him to vent his frustrations, though. Surely, USFS follows him on Twitter and can read everything he says! It's just not doing him any favors when it comes down to things like picking alternates for a team or choosing a host pick for a GP assignment.
     
  2. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Armin needs to start skating better in internationals events before he disses other skaters.
     
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Two seasons ago USFS skipped the top three for 4C's, including Dornbush, and sent Abbott, Rippon, and Mahbahnoozadeh, who was 6th at US Nats, and as far as I know, Mahbahnoozadeh didn't complain that this was unfair to the three who placed above him. AM's score at 4C's, in which he came in 7th, was 15 points lower than at 2011 US Nationals.

    It is possible that USFS took international performance into consideration, and not just club affiliation, since it put the spotlight on the selection and alternate ranking process when USFS selected Dornbush after a very weak US Nationals.
     
  4. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

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    But it shouldn't matter what he says on twitter. Sport is sport, and selection to events should be transparent-- even if the person selected has a sharp tongue on twitter. He should have taken his case to the Court of Arbitration.
     
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    And point to what CAS provision?
     
  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, under the USFSA's somewhat mushy criteria for selecting the Four Continents Team, Dornbush's superior results on the Grand Prix and 2011 Nationals, his victory at 2011 World Juniors, and Mahbahnoozadeh's tepid performance at 2011 Four Continents were enough to support the argument that Dornbush was picked on merits. I disagree with the criteria, but I don't call the shots.

    And, it should matter what he says on Twitter. Skaters go to ISU Championships as representatives of their Federations and (in effect) their countries. Bad-mouthing your competitors isn't cricket. ;)
     
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I thought I read here that the criteria for 4C's selection changed this year and there was some vague commitment to publish them somewhere and sometime.
     
  8. Andrey aka Pushkin

    Andrey aka Pushkin Brezina's Nemesis

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    Anyway, who's going to replace Contesti in China and Paris?
     
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I am betting on Rogozine and Hendrickx.

    Having said that I guess that China and France might want to play POLITIK with Piseev maybe? In that case, expect Voronov and Dmitriev to get picked.
     
  10. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

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    It should matter to the fans, but not to the selection committee. They should send the athletes poised for the most success-- they athletes who competitively EARN the spots. You don't see US Track and Field keeping people home who win the Olympic trials just because they are asshats, do you?
     
  11. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    This is really the same situation. If you believe he was "screwed", it wasn't 4CC and the Grand Prix. It was 4CC which created the situation with the Grand Prix. USFSA doesn't control Grand Prix assignments other than the assignments to Skate America. Armin didn't receive any GP assignments because of his season's best and World Ranking. Dornbush's season's best is 27th while Mahbanoozedeh's is 41st. Dornbush's world standing is 20th (which is why he got the assignments) and Mahbanoozedeh's is 43rd. As far as GP selection (except for the Skate America host spots), the fact that Armin beat Ricky at US Nationals is totally irrelevant. However, Armin's WS and possibly SB would have been higher had he gone to 4CC although there is no way of knowing whether it would have been high enough for GP selection.
     
  12. allezfred

    allezfred Old and Immature Admin Staff Member

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    Someone non-scratchy with any luck.
     
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Top SB with none or one:
    Voronov-NHK
    Hendrykx-TEB
    Rogozine-NHK
    Dmitriev-CoC
    Ge-none (if he was entered in Senior GP) or Guan-CoC, if Ge is doing JGP

    If "Top 5" means Top 5 regardless of where they are entered*, and if they don't move someone up into the Top 5 after the first is assigned, then

    Cup of China:
    Already Assigned*: Dmitriev, Guan (if Ge is junior)
    Possible: Voronov, Hendrickx, Rogozine, Ge (if senior)

    TEB:
    Already Assigned: Hendrickx
    Assigned to NHK immediately afterwards: Voronov**, Rogozine
    Likely: Dmitriev, Guan or Ge**

    **If not assigned to CoC

    *If the Top 5 skips anyone who is ineligible, then there would more from the bottom to replace at least those already assigned, and possibly those with events the week before or after which take place on another continent.

    If there's a replacement in the Top 5 after Contesti's first replacement is selected, Zhan Bush would be the next from the SB list, if Ge is still Junior. Otherwise it would be Guan (CoC). Bush is assigned to RC, and most likely wouldn't be chosen for TEB the week after.but if the French Fed chooses the first replacement, then Bush would be moved to Top 5 as a possible CoC replacement.

    It would help if the replacement rules were specific.
     
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to JGPF & GPF!

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    Misha Ge turned 21 last month.
     
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Wow, I keep thinking he's 15! (and I didn't bother to look him up...)

    He'd be the 5th on the original replacements list, then, and with no assignments, eligible for either. I bet he'd like to go to China, since he grew up there for a number of years while his father coached there.
     
  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Armin is still not on this next-in-line list for GP spots, so what are people arguing?
     
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to JGPF & GPF!

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    It's already been explained in posts #385 and 401.

    Recapping the TBA host spots currently available...
    Skate America: men, pairs, dance
    Skate Canada: men, ladies, pairs
    Cup of China: men, ladies, dance
    Rostelecom Cup: men, ladies, pairs
    TEB: men, ladies, pairs, dance
    NHK: none
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    :EVILLE:
     
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    The bottom line about Dornbush is that with his Top 24 WS (20th), he was guaranteed one spot, and with his #27 SB, under this year's alternates rules, would have been in the first group of substitutes had he not received a second in the initial selection. (Under last year's rules, he would have been slotted automatically into one of Contesti's two spots.)

    Dornbush earned 237 WS points at 4C's, without which he wouldn't have been Top 24 WS, although if instead of putting him so high on the alternates list for 4C's, USFS had sent him to one of the last Senior B's, and, for example, he beat at least Ponsart at Triglav Trophy, he still would have been top 24 WS. However, the reason he is 27 SB is his performance at CoC, not 4C's.

    Mahbahnoozadeh is 41 in SB, and he would have had to have scored almost 30 points higher than his SB at NHK to have made top 24 SB, or he would have needed 585 WS points at 4C's -- 4th place or higher in a field with Chan, Takahashi, Rippon, Miner -- to be top 24 in WS. He couldn't have placed Top 24 WS with two wins worth of points (500, the max) at Senior B's. It's not impossible that he would have scored almost 30 points higher than his previous SB (NHK) under an international panel at 4C's -- he did score almost 225 at US Nationals, but last season he scored higher at US Nats (~215) that 4C's (~200) -- in order to place Top 24 SB with a score at 4C's, but it wasn't likely.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  20. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I'm not privy to the inner workings of the USFSA, but, is it possible, that this is the analysis that went into deciding the alternates for 4CC's? Assuming kwanfan1818 is correct ;), their decision really does make sense.

    Of course, don't let any kind of analysis get in the way of a good :lynch: :rofl:
     
  21. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I give USFS very little credit in general, but in hindsight, it gives them plausible deniability against the theory that they only chose Dornbush for 4C's because of the club he came from. It doesn't explain why they wouldn't deal and lobby to get Mahbanoozadeh a spot for GP, since Top 75 are eligible in the first round: SC did get a non-host spot for Rogozine (29 on SB list), the Russian Fed for Voronov (25 on the SB list), and the French Fed threw a bone to Hendrickx -- after all, Van der Perren's guaranteed spot (24 SB) was back in the hopper after his retirement -- but they were in the first group of alternates anyway. As Sylvia pointed out several times, there's still an open host spot at SA.
     
  22. morqet

    morqet Well-Known Member

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    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3584

    ISU GP general announcement has now been published - as far as drafting in skaters to fill empty spots goes:

    If any slot(s) remains open and if all skaters/couples as defined in paragraph 2.2. a) (7-12 at Worlds), b) (split couples) and c) (returning skaters) above have been selected for one (1) event, the Organizing Member may select any skater/couple with a top 75 seasonal best score to fill the open slot(s).
     
  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to JGPF & GPF!

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    Re-posting from the U.S. Men's thread:
    Relevant excerpts from the GP Announcement:
    So if Lysacek wants to compete at Skate America, is he required to obtain the minimum score in one of the Senior B competitions listed above or is the GP minimum score waived for host picks?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  24. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    (From first pass review): Changes in the 2012-13 GP Announcement, apart from the obvious, like references to this year's documents, minimum scores, season years, and event places and dates:

    1. General
    • Pairs no longer are excepted from participating in Pairs GP and JGP (The skaters themselves can skate in singles or dance in the other.)

    2. Designation of the Skaters

    2.1 Seeded skaters/couples
    • a: No longer have option for third event.
    • b: If there are vacancies in the seeded list, reverts back to next ranked skater/team at 2012 will become seeded.
    • c: Comeback skaters
      • Are given priority for "up to 2" events if they announce and confirm in writing that they'd do two before the annual Selection Meeting.
      • No longer have to be on the official lists (SB, WS) to qualify.
      • Would be considered for host spot.

    2.2 Invited skaters/couples
    • b: "Return of a Split Couple - "Returning Split Couple"
      • Defined as Top 7-12 of Worlds in the past two seasons (2010-11 or 2011-12) with old partner
      • May be chosen as a host pick and as a pick by another federation.
      • Inherits SB score with old partner.
      • Must confirm partnership in writing by the annual Selection Meeting.
      • Does not need a minimum score.
    • c. "Return of a ranked skater/couple "Return Skater/Couple"
      • Defined as previously in top 7-12 two (2010) and/or three (2011) WCs ago, but did not compete at all/was injured last season (2011-12).
      • Must confirm intent to skate in writing by annual Selection Meeting.
      • May be chosen as host pick and by another host.
      • SB from last competing season used.
      • Does not need minimum score.
    • e. Only gold medalists from ISU JGPF are eligible [from all JGPF medalists].
    • f. "It is not mandatory for the Organizing Member's skaters/couple to fulfill the criteria of the minimum score but it is strongly suggested." [from- initial selection needs minimum score, but replacement of replacement doesn't, which, in practice last season included "TBD"]
    • Split couple only to alternate list removed [was 2.2.f.]

    2.3 Minimum Score for Grand Prix Events
    • States explicitly that it's the minimum total score (SP/SD +FS/FD).
    • Calculated on 3/5 (60%) of highest score from last Worlds [from 2/3 last season]
    • There are five events in which to earn minimum GP scores: US Senior International, Nebelhorn, Ondrej Nepala, Finlandia, Cup of Nice, with Pairs competition listed for all but Finlandia [from six last year, including NRW and Graz]

    3. Confirmation of Participation
    • Seeded and invited skaters confirmation deadline is 1 August [from 15 Aug]

    4. Points/Ranking Order
    • Third event language removed

    6. Technical Details for the Individual Events
    • Short Dance info is now a reference to the appropriate documents.

    7. Scoring System / Officials / Replacements

    7.6 Replacements
    • Come-back skaters moved to the penultimate spot on the alternates list and are limited to those in the 7-12, not seeded category [from the top of the list]
    • Split couples are ranked among themselves by SB with previous partner and are at the top of the list, followed by Top 24, Top 75, come-back skaters, winners of the five GP minimum qualifying Senior B's.
    • References added, so that they didn't contradict themselves, for the most part.

    This is where it gets tricky: it explicitly says, "In ranking order" for the Top 24 SB, but then says that all of the skaters/couples on the alternates list will be grouped in sets of five, which is contradictory. Either the Top 24 SB are given a second event in Top 24 order (if they already aren't assigned, they'd be the fourth from their country, or it's a back-to-back assignment), and then everyone else is grouped in 5's, or the "ranking order" distinction is moot.

    Don't these people ever use flow charts or tables to figure out all of their scenarios? :drama:

    9. Technical details for the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final
    References to tech documents added in lieu of SD detail.
    Judges nomination deadline is 28 November [from 1 December]

    Host picks no longer have to meet the minimum score (2.2.f), although it is "strongly suggested." It says the skaters "should" be on the Top 75 SB list when first selected, but it doesn't say "must."

    USFS could have submitted his name for the General Selection deadline, but he isn't obligated to use the one-time come-back skater option, and he didn't qualify for any other federation to pick him, because he didn't have a Top 75 score nor was a seeded come-back skater. If he isn't considered a seeded come-back skater, then, theoretically, he'd be just like any other host pick, so it depends on whether "should" is another suggestion, not a rule.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  25. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Thanks for the detail, kwanfan1818!

    I guess it depends on whether USFS really wants Evan or not.
     
  26. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Happy Russian Hunger Games!

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    Quote from the announcement:
     
  27. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    thanks for the details about armin i have been wondering for a while wheter he is going to attend the GP series
     
  28. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    As postd above by HisWeirness -

    Quote from the announcement:

    Quote:
    Skaters/couples entered for an event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating may not participate in the same discipline of an event of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same season. Only skaters participating in different disciplines may enter into both the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same year/skating season.


    So will this be known henchforth as "The Sui/Han Rule" (or, alternately, the "Taka/Tran Rule")?
     
  29. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Glad there is more room for jr and sr teams at the GP. I remember Savchenko and Morozov competing in both so it's been going on long before S/H. I just hope S/H don't plan on competing in dance too! :lol:
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Ah, but S/H could compete Juniors in Dance and Seniors in Pairs :lol:
     
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