2012-13 ISU Grand Prix Assignments

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 21, 2012.

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  1. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't seem to be a hindrance for Yan so far though. And his SS is considerably better than the other two at this point in their career. He's also the youngest. All he needs is some legitimate choreography and better packaging. There's so much raw talent.
     
  2. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    That is no indication of how good Brown is, but more of how unsuccesful others were... The level just isn´t very high, LOL.
     
  3. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    All 3 got comparable, very high PCS at junior worlds so I think that argument is moot.

    Jason Brown is no victim of the USFS. They freaking love him and have given him monstrous scores at Nationals the past 2 seasons despite having no 3a and making mistakes. I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to stay on the JGP was his own, he hasn't done the 3a in competition yet and he said in an interview a year or two back he wasn't going to rush into seniors internationally and planned to do the JGP for a couple more years at least, just like Lysacek did. He said his goal was now 2018 anyways where the 3a is taking longer to master than he expected. I think the USFS can afford to do this because they know he isn't a threat to the "established" skaters without a 3a. When and if he gets a solid 3a, I could see the lovefest ending, at least until after Sochi...

    Farris seems to be a victim of the USFS. He didn't skate well at Nationals but his scores were still too low, all those guys with ladies content did not deserve to place ahead of him when he went for 2 triple axels and a 4t in his FS, and further, getting significantly lower PCS at Nationals as a senior compared to his internationals as a junior is fishy, especially when others were getting huge bonuses. I mean, the JW silver medalist, who came 0.47 from winning the entire championship with the highest score in history, was 16TH at US nationals? Really? The USFS knows this kid is good and has the goods to overtake someone like Rippon, Dornbush, or Miner very easily and quickly, and they are trying to prevent that. Jason has no 3a yet so they don't worry about him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he starts trying 3a with success in his programs, if he faces similar treatment the next couple years. USFS is blatantly holding Joshua Farris back in order to prevent him from overtaking the likes of Rippon, Miner, and Dornbush, etc before the 2014 Olympics. After Sochi I'm sure they will all of a sudden be supportive of him and give him the attention and scores he deserves, but until then, I expect more of the same. I'm confident that Joshua could skate well enough to earn a spot on this season's world team, but not very confident that the USFS would give him the scores at nationals to be sent, they'll likely deflate or keep his PCS the same as internationally while inflating everyone elses hugely to keep him as low as possible. Josh wanted to move up, he had a senior invitation guaranteed, he has the goods to move up, his SB was as high as the 2nd and 3rd place finishers at US Senior Nationals, he medaled at all his junior internationals this season, and the USFS says "No, you're staying junior another season." Umm wtf.

    The situation in China is also similar, Nan Song was pretty much a non-factor but then he has a good season on the GP and all of a sudden he's the new focus of China even though Yan at 16 is already much stronger in terms of skating skills, speed, and artistry. They are all gung ho for Song for Sochi and will make Yan wait his turn and likely keep him junior until after Sochi, unless Song manages to get 2 spots for the Olympics by placing in the top 10 at this season's worlds, which seems like a stretch considering he was 14th this year with that very strong FS.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Some of the 2012 US Nationals Senior Men's free skates I really enjoyed came from the earlier groups where the level was quite high, IMO: Scott Dyer, Jonathan Cassar, Grant Hochstein and Alex Johnson, to name four.

    ETA: I hope Joshua Farris doesn't think of himself as a "victim" and continues to focus on his overall skating progress. The mental pressures of skating successfully at the senior national and international level are immense -- it's much more than attempting/landing the most difficult jumps in competition.

    I think Mahbanoozadeh's low ISU SB score was why he didn't get at least 1 GP invite. That's why he needed (and deserved, IMO) to go to Four Continents as the first alternate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  5. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

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    Paul Poirier is one of the best male ice dancers in Canada, so it makes sense that after losing some ground last year when he had to find another partner that Skate Canada would want Paul & Piper to have a chance to get going.

    They did well at Nationals, and it was unfortunate that they missed out on Worlds because of the USFSA release situation even though they had qualified to go there by finishing 3rd.
     
  6. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    His program at Nationals was done to probably the most overused music in the history of skating, and instead of choreography, he just stretched his arms out and skated around. There was *zero* choreo in that program, absolutely nothing. Compare that to this, his Transformers program from earlier in the season, which definitely seemed to have some purpose and originality and was skated with some vigor.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ3YfsuiKZg

    Someone along the way made a conscious decision to scrap a pretty good program and hastily throw together a far inferior Rach program. That is not guidance in the right direction for this talented skater. :shuffle:

    Also, his technical performance was nothing amazing at Nationals and the 3ax and quad attempts don't automatically put him ahead of "ladies content" skaters just because he tries them. He fell on the quad and both axels were botchy and ground out. Then there was the fall on the lutz, a singled jump on the end of a combo, and a slip in the footwork. So all in all, there were only 4 clean triples- loop, lutz, flip, and salchow. I see nothing to wuzrob about this kind of performance and placement.

    In contrast, "ladies content skaters" Johnson had 7 clean triples, Cassar had 5-6, Dyer had 5-6, and Brown also only showed 4, but all had good skating and programs. So yes, all 4 deserved to finish ahead of Josh this time.

    All that said, Josh is clearly a strong skater in general with a lot of potential, and I hope for great things for him in the future. I hope he has learned from this Rach debacle. He is still very young and has time. Either he forgot a lot of the choreo during the performance, or someone along the way thought outstretched arms = good program. Perplexing.

    Between Brown and Farris' SP and LP at Nationals, neither was able to show a clean triple axel or quad jump. I can definitely see why they are going back to JGP, as good as their junior results have been.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  7. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Please tell me this is some kind of joke. If you think that the Transformers program had more choreo, you must be blind.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVpYlFPImj4

    This is the Rach program as it was skated at its best - at JW. It was gorgeous, fluid, had way more choreography than you're giving it credit for, he connects with the music, he uses it well.

    Compare that with the skating over the top of the Transformers music, not really going with it at all and looking about as disconnected from the music as it was possible to be...about the only good things he did in that program that he didn't do in the Rach one was the stag jump and illusion turn. The layout was appalling, the way those two spins towards the middle were placed was just not good at all. I just cannot conceive how you see this LP as being the superior one. The Rach LP was unquestionably more suited to his style of skating and his personality, and he pulled it off far better. As a whole, it was the superior program, and the Transformers one was the big mistake, IMO.
     
  8. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    He's keeping the Rach FS for another season, and for the record, if that program is so terrible, why did it score 146+, 71+ for PCS, at JW? The program is actually nice and much better suited to his skating style than the Transformers FS, which IMO overpowered him and was a bit disjointed due to the music cuts.

    In any event, the problem I had with his scores at Nationals was the PCS, his TES for the FS of 69 was deserved and not actually that low. At the JGPF, he skated the same program and made a similar number of mistakes, and his PCS was 69 compared to the 65 at Nationals. Jason Brown also got PCS of 69 at the JGPF for a sterling, clean FS, and got PCS of 75 at Nationals for a 3-fall FS. Skaters like Dornbush, Rippon, Mahbanoozadeh, and Razzano all got PCS inflation at nationals in the form of 5 to 10 points over what they typically get internationally. So honestly, if Josh had received the same treatment, his FS score would have been 137-142 instead of the 132 he got, which honestly would have been reasonable considering the scores handed out to others.
     
  9. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Can anybody tell me why the discussion about skaters competing on the Junior Grand Prix is taking place here and not the Junior Grand Prix thread? They haven't been given assignments in Seniors. It's done. Get over it.
     
    Kasey, AJ Skatefan, oleada and 3 others like this.
  10. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
  11. operagirl

    operagirl Active Member

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    All Year FSC is holding it's club championships this weekend. Leah Keiser (58.24) is ahead of Courtney Hicks (54.34) after the SP.
     
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    operagirl, I think you meant to post the above in the JGP thread? ;) I've re-posted there for you: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3584388#post3584388

    Please let's not rehash this topic any further in the JGP thread. Thank you.

    ETA: Here's a thread in the Trash Can that can be used instead :p: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78766&page=49
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  13. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree here. There's a relevant thread for that...
     
  14. alchemy void

    alchemy void Well-Known Member

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    Where else are we to discuss this KONSPIRACY?!? :cold:
     
  15. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

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    In the Jr Grand Prix thread?
     
  16. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    Or better yet, make a new thread to discuss it so the JGP thread can have actual info instead of just nonsense.
     
  17. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    It's a much more appropriate thread to rehash it in if it has to be done.
     
  18. sandra_persch

    sandra_persch Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe that we have the first withdrawl already

    Alexandra NAZAROVA / Maxim NIKITIN UKR have been crossed out at Rostelecom Cup

    guess they want to stay junior?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Without the GP announcement with this year's alternates rules, it's hard to say who is in the running to replace them. Since they allowed split couples to be in the initial selections, it isn't clear whether they are still high on the replacements list (last year, second after comeback skaters) or on it at all if they were given initial assignments. (Of course, they can be chosen as host picks if they have one at another event.)

    The only split couple in the initial selection is Gilles/Poirier, and they already have two (Skate Canada and Trophee Bompard). Even if they allow couples to be added after the initial GP deadline as they get together, it's pretty late for Crone to find one, since she and Sorensen just split.

    Monko/Khaliavin should be considered comeback skaters for replacements purposes, since they were out of international competition last season, but they already are assigned to Rostelecom Cup. (They didn't take the one-time option to get two in the initial selection.)

    The top-ranked Top 24 SB with one assignment is Tobias/Stagniunas (18 SB, Skate America), followed by Chock/Bates (20 SB), who have China the week before.
     
  20. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    A comeback skater is one who has finished top 6 at Senior Worlds and did not compete since then. M/K won JUNIOR Worlds 2011 and that is not the same thing at all.
     
  21. Marta24

    Marta24 Member

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    Orford/Williams got the spot at Rostelecom Cup
     
  22. toddlj

    toddlj Well-Known Member

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    O/W are #22 in World Standings
     
  23. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Ralph/Hill are #21 in World Standings, but on the SB list, O/W are #21 and R/H #25.

    I believe it is the SB list they use for replacements.
     
  24. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    You're right: junior placement doesn't count. M/K can only get Rostelecom Cup, and the Russian Fed assigned it to them, unlike Skate Canada, which left P/I out in the cold.

    It will be interesting to see if the rules changed to allow the host to choose among the skaters in the Top 24 SB with one rather than go in strict order -- strict order was specified last year -- or if Tobias/Stagniunas passed on a second. Last season there was speculation that Joshi Helgesson, who was Top 24 WS, turned down a second when it was her turn and the host chose from Top 75.

    Russia/Japan (O/W's original assignment) is probably the toughest travel schedule for NA skaters.
     
  25. SUN

    SUN New Member

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    You are right. The list of alternates is arranged based on the SB only (no matter if somebody has 1 event or not).
    But the organizers have some flexibility. The can pick anyone from the top 5.An these top 5 will be updated when someone is picked from this group. Now that Orford \Williams (I think they were 3rd or 4th in this list) are picked for the second event, the couple with the 6th SB moved to the top 5.
     
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    O/W were #21 in the SB list.

    Top 5 would be new this year. Last year the third and fourth bullet points (after comeback skaters and split couples) were:


    Does that mean that it's the top 5 SB with one or none, and that Top 24 SB and WS can be skipped for a second, while skaters in the Top 75 with none can get a first (or second)? This could mean more spots for more skaters and going into Top 75 or deeper into Top 75, thus spreading the wealth, since there's incentive for a host to get the weakest competition for their own skaters.

    Top 5 after Orford/Williams:


    • Tobias/Stagniunas (18-USA)
      Chock/Bates (20-CHN)
      Alessandrini/Vaturi (22-USA)
      Slobina/Sitnikov (23-CAN)
      Ralph/Hill (25-CAN, also 21 WS)

    If Top 24 SB and Top 24 WS are taken into consideration, then


    • Guignard/Fabbri (29-CHN, also 18 WS), assuming Zenkova/Sinitsin stay Junior,
      Pushkash-Guerreiro (32-FRA, 17 WS)
      Yu/Wang (50-JPN, 20WS)

    would be next, in that order to move into the top 5.

    If only SB is taken into consideration, then


    • Guignard/Fabbri (29-CHN, also 18 WS)
      Heekin-Canedy/Dun (30)
      Pushkash-Guerreiro (32-FRA, 17 WS)

    would be next.
     
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Can somebody explain why Orford/Williams (21st on the SB list) were picked over Tobias/Stagniunas (18th) and Chock/Bates (20th)?

    I find it highly unlikely that both of these teams would pass on a second spot, so I guess ISU is again making it up as they go along? :rolleyes:

    Because China is a collectivist society therefore the team performance is probably seen as more important than the performances of individual skaters.

    The federation supported Gachinski going senior because they had no successful senior men at that time.

    That is certainly not the USFS' problem. ;)

    Then I will reply again:

    Dornbush has a higher WR than Ihaveasnoozeday and the latter had a low SB as well.

    Why would he get assigments?
     
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    SUN explained that the host Fed can choose any one if the top 5 with none or one in SB order, so O/W could be chosen over T/S. (The team in between was already assigned to RC. )
    It looks like a rule change from last season.
     
  29. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhh how could I have missed that post. :eek:

    So basically Orford/Williams have been chosen as the weakest team of the five. Nice. :p
     
  30. icellist

    icellist Member

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    if they're going by top 5 from SB now, then for the ladies...

    Alissa Czisny
    Kiira Korpi
    Mirai Nagasu
    Sofia Biryukova
    Polina Korebeynikova

    who's the weakest link of the 5? XD
     
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