2012-13 ISU Grand Prix Assignments

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 21, 2012.

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  1. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    This is really the same situation. If you believe he was "screwed", it wasn't 4CC and the Grand Prix. It was 4CC which created the situation with the Grand Prix. USFSA doesn't control Grand Prix assignments other than the assignments to Skate America. Armin didn't receive any GP assignments because of his season's best and World Ranking. Dornbush's season's best is 27th while Mahbanoozedeh's is 41st. Dornbush's world standing is 20th (which is why he got the assignments) and Mahbanoozedeh's is 43rd. As far as GP selection (except for the Skate America host spots), the fact that Armin beat Ricky at US Nationals is totally irrelevant. However, Armin's WS and possibly SB would have been higher had he gone to 4CC although there is no way of knowing whether it would have been high enough for GP selection.
  2. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Someone non-scratchy with any luck.
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Top SB with none or one:
    Voronov-NHK
    Hendrykx-TEB
    Rogozine-NHK
    Dmitriev-CoC
    Ge-none (if he was entered in Senior GP) or Guan-CoC, if Ge is doing JGP

    If "Top 5" means Top 5 regardless of where they are entered*, and if they don't move someone up into the Top 5 after the first is assigned, then

    Cup of China:
    Already Assigned*: Dmitriev, Guan (if Ge is junior)
    Possible: Voronov, Hendrickx, Rogozine, Ge (if senior)

    TEB:
    Already Assigned: Hendrickx
    Assigned to NHK immediately afterwards: Voronov**, Rogozine
    Likely: Dmitriev, Guan or Ge**

    **If not assigned to CoC

    *If the Top 5 skips anyone who is ineligible, then there would more from the bottom to replace at least those already assigned, and possibly those with events the week before or after which take place on another continent.

    If there's a replacement in the Top 5 after Contesti's first replacement is selected, Zhan Bush would be the next from the SB list, if Ge is still Junior. Otherwise it would be Guan (CoC). Bush is assigned to RC, and most likely wouldn't be chosen for TEB the week after.but if the French Fed chooses the first replacement, then Bush would be moved to Top 5 as a possible CoC replacement.

    It would help if the replacement rules were specific.
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Misha Ge turned 21 last month.
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Wow, I keep thinking he's 15! (and I didn't bother to look him up...)

    He'd be the 5th on the original replacements list, then, and with no assignments, eligible for either. I bet he'd like to go to China, since he grew up there for a number of years while his father coached there.
  6. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Armin is still not on this next-in-line list for GP spots, so what are people arguing?
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    It's already been explained in posts #385 and 401.

    Recapping the TBA host spots currently available...
    Skate America: men, pairs, dance
    Skate Canada: men, ladies, pairs
    Cup of China: men, ladies, dance
    Rostelecom Cup: men, ladies, pairs
    TEB: men, ladies, pairs, dance
    NHK: none
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    :EVILLE:
  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The bottom line about Dornbush is that with his Top 24 WS (20th), he was guaranteed one spot, and with his #27 SB, under this year's alternates rules, would have been in the first group of substitutes had he not received a second in the initial selection. (Under last year's rules, he would have been slotted automatically into one of Contesti's two spots.)

    Dornbush earned 237 WS points at 4C's, without which he wouldn't have been Top 24 WS, although if instead of putting him so high on the alternates list for 4C's, USFS had sent him to one of the last Senior B's, and, for example, he beat at least Ponsart at Triglav Trophy, he still would have been top 24 WS. However, the reason he is 27 SB is his performance at CoC, not 4C's.

    Mahbahnoozadeh is 41 in SB, and he would have had to have scored almost 30 points higher than his SB at NHK to have made top 24 SB, or he would have needed 585 WS points at 4C's -- 4th place or higher in a field with Chan, Takahashi, Rippon, Miner -- to be top 24 in WS. He couldn't have placed Top 24 WS with two wins worth of points (500, the max) at Senior B's. It's not impossible that he would have scored almost 30 points higher than his previous SB (NHK) under an international panel at 4C's -- he did score almost 225 at US Nationals, but last season he scored higher at US Nats (~215) that 4C's (~200) -- in order to place Top 24 SB with a score at 4C's, but it wasn't likely.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  10. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I'm not privy to the inner workings of the USFSA, but, is it possible, that this is the analysis that went into deciding the alternates for 4CC's? Assuming kwanfan1818 is correct ;), their decision really does make sense.

    Of course, don't let any kind of analysis get in the way of a good :lynch: :rofl:
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I give USFS very little credit in general, but in hindsight, it gives them plausible deniability against the theory that they only chose Dornbush for 4C's because of the club he came from. It doesn't explain why they wouldn't deal and lobby to get Mahbanoozadeh a spot for GP, since Top 75 are eligible in the first round: SC did get a non-host spot for Rogozine (29 on SB list), the Russian Fed for Voronov (25 on the SB list), and the French Fed threw a bone to Hendrickx -- after all, Van der Perren's guaranteed spot (24 SB) was back in the hopper after his retirement -- but they were in the first group of alternates anyway. As Sylvia pointed out several times, there's still an open host spot at SA.
  12. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=3584

    ISU GP general announcement has now been published - as far as drafting in skaters to fill empty spots goes:

    If any slot(s) remains open and if all skaters/couples as defined in paragraph 2.2. a) (7-12 at Worlds), b) (split couples) and c) (returning skaters) above have been selected for one (1) event, the Organizing Member may select any skater/couple with a top 75 seasonal best score to fill the open slot(s).
  13. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Re-posting from the U.S. Men's thread:
    Relevant excerpts from the GP Announcement:
    So if Lysacek wants to compete at Skate America, is he required to obtain the minimum score in one of the Senior B competitions listed above or is the GP minimum score waived for host picks?
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    (From first pass review): Changes in the 2012-13 GP Announcement, apart from the obvious, like references to this year's documents, minimum scores, season years, and event places and dates:

    1. General
    • Pairs no longer are excepted from participating in Pairs GP and JGP (The skaters themselves can skate in singles or dance in the other.)

    2. Designation of the Skaters

    2.1 Seeded skaters/couples
    • a: No longer have option for third event.
    • b: If there are vacancies in the seeded list, reverts back to next ranked skater/team at 2012 will become seeded.
    • c: Comeback skaters
      • Are given priority for "up to 2" events if they announce and confirm in writing that they'd do two before the annual Selection Meeting.
      • No longer have to be on the official lists (SB, WS) to qualify.
      • Would be considered for host spot.

    2.2 Invited skaters/couples
    • b: "Return of a Split Couple - "Returning Split Couple"
      • Defined as Top 7-12 of Worlds in the past two seasons (2010-11 or 2011-12) with old partner
      • May be chosen as a host pick and as a pick by another federation.
      • Inherits SB score with old partner.
      • Must confirm partnership in writing by the annual Selection Meeting.
      • Does not need a minimum score.
    • c. "Return of a ranked skater/couple "Return Skater/Couple"
      • Defined as previously in top 7-12 two (2010) and/or three (2011) WCs ago, but did not compete at all/was injured last season (2011-12).
      • Must confirm intent to skate in writing by annual Selection Meeting.
      • May be chosen as host pick and by another host.
      • SB from last competing season used.
      • Does not need minimum score.
    • e. Only gold medalists from ISU JGPF are eligible [from all JGPF medalists].
    • f. "It is not mandatory for the Organizing Member's skaters/couple to fulfill the criteria of the minimum score but it is strongly suggested." [from- initial selection needs minimum score, but replacement of replacement doesn't, which, in practice last season included "TBD"]
    • Split couple only to alternate list removed [was 2.2.f.]

    2.3 Minimum Score for Grand Prix Events
    • States explicitly that it's the minimum total score (SP/SD +FS/FD).
    • Calculated on 3/5 (60%) of highest score from last Worlds [from 2/3 last season]
    • There are five events in which to earn minimum GP scores: US Senior International, Nebelhorn, Ondrej Nepala, Finlandia, Cup of Nice, with Pairs competition listed for all but Finlandia [from six last year, including NRW and Graz]

    3. Confirmation of Participation
    • Seeded and invited skaters confirmation deadline is 1 August [from 15 Aug]

    4. Points/Ranking Order
    • Third event language removed

    6. Technical Details for the Individual Events
    • Short Dance info is now a reference to the appropriate documents.

    7. Scoring System / Officials / Replacements

    7.6 Replacements
    • Come-back skaters moved to the penultimate spot on the alternates list and are limited to those in the 7-12, not seeded category [from the top of the list]
    • Split couples are ranked among themselves by SB with previous partner and are at the top of the list, followed by Top 24, Top 75, come-back skaters, winners of the five GP minimum qualifying Senior B's.
    • References added, so that they didn't contradict themselves, for the most part.

    This is where it gets tricky: it explicitly says, "In ranking order" for the Top 24 SB, but then says that all of the skaters/couples on the alternates list will be grouped in sets of five, which is contradictory. Either the Top 24 SB are given a second event in Top 24 order (if they already aren't assigned, they'd be the fourth from their country, or it's a back-to-back assignment), and then everyone else is grouped in 5's, or the "ranking order" distinction is moot.

    Don't these people ever use flow charts or tables to figure out all of their scenarios? :drama:

    9. Technical details for the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final
    References to tech documents added in lieu of SD detail.
    Judges nomination deadline is 28 November [from 1 December]

    Host picks no longer have to meet the minimum score (2.2.f), although it is "strongly suggested." It says the skaters "should" be on the Top 75 SB list when first selected, but it doesn't say "must."

    USFS could have submitted his name for the General Selection deadline, but he isn't obligated to use the one-time come-back skater option, and he didn't qualify for any other federation to pick him, because he didn't have a Top 75 score nor was a seeded come-back skater. If he isn't considered a seeded come-back skater, then, theoretically, he'd be just like any other host pick, so it depends on whether "should" is another suggestion, not a rule.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  15. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Thanks for the detail, kwanfan1818!

    I guess it depends on whether USFS really wants Evan or not.
  16. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    Quote from the announcement:
  17. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    thanks for the details about armin i have been wondering for a while wheter he is going to attend the GP series
  18. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    As postd above by HisWeirness -

    Quote from the announcement:

    Quote:
    Skaters/couples entered for an event of the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating may not participate in the same discipline of an event of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same season. Only skaters participating in different disciplines may enter into both the ISU Grand Prix of Figure Skating and the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in the same year/skating season.


    So will this be known henchforth as "The Sui/Han Rule" (or, alternately, the "Taka/Tran Rule")?
  19. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Glad there is more room for jr and sr teams at the GP. I remember Savchenko and Morozov competing in both so it's been going on long before S/H. I just hope S/H don't plan on competing in dance too! :lol:
  20. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Ah, but S/H could compete Juniors in Dance and Seniors in Pairs :lol:
  21. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Cynthia Phaneuf is out of consideration for GP due to a back injury:
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=84237

    She was not assigned a spot in the general selection, but there was a TBD for Ladies at Skate Canada. She's far enough down the SB list that an alternates spot wasn't very likely.
    Lanna and (deleted member) like this.
  22. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies ├╝ber

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    I wonder who will get that spot now. Maybe a skate off at a senior B between Desanctis and Najarro.
  23. fsfan22

    fsfan22 New Member

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    My thoughts exactly ... it's definitely going to be either of these 2.
  24. fan

    fan Active Member

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    it could also potentially be samson if she returns and monitors well.
  25. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

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    please, i really wanna see her again in competition
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Contesti's spots have been assigned to:

    Sergei Voronov (COC)
    Jinlin Guan (TEB)

    All of the Top 24 SB competing Senior, with the exception of Plushenko (none) were assigned two in the initial assignments.

    Before selection, the Top 6 -- Ge and Guan were tied at 31 -- with zero or one were:

    25-Voronov
    28-Hendrickx (already assigned to TEB)
    29-Rogozine (assigned to NHK the week after TEB)
    30-Dmitriev (injured?, already assigned to CoC)
    31-Ge
    31 Guan

    I don't see any tie-breaker rules for SB, and it's possible that Ge and Guan were added together and the order on the SB list was alphabetical, or Ge was never submitted for GP (which doesn't make sense).

    The wording on the GP announcement suggests that the grouping is static and that all of the men (if possible) in the Top 5 (or 6 with tie) would be assigned before someone else moved up to the Top 5 list. If not, Bush would be slotted into the remaining skaters in the group if Ge is in it, or Bush and Menshov if Ge is not in it.
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Thanks for the update, kwanfan1818. So both Voronov and Guan have received second GP assignments.

    Myriane Samson has returned to competition - link to a brief update if you missed seeing it posted in another thread: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3617988#post3617988
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    For whatever reason, the ISU published Ladies and Pairs sheets dated July 13, but I don't see any changes from the originals posted on May 21.
  29. sus2850

    sus2850 Member

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    Would have rather seen Ge at TEB...
  30. analia

    analia Member

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    Misha doesn't have a fed pulling for him I suppose. Dimitrev's COC spot can still go to him though. Chinese fed is friendly with Misha's parents, or at least some coaches do.
  31. Rochelle

    Rochelle Active Member

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  32. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    From Sylvia's post #335 in this thread (taking out Kexin Zhang who has 2 now)

    LADIES
    1 GP assignment received (listed in order of ISU SB score ranking):
    8 Alissa Czisny USA (NHK; #4 in World Standings; currently recovering from surgery on 6/6)
    11 Mirai Nagasu USA (Cup of China; #13 in WS)
    14 Kiira Korpi FIN (Rostelecom Cup; #5 in WS)
    15 Sofia Biryukova RUS (NHK)
    17 Polina Korobeynikova RUS (TEB)
    19 Polina Shelepen RUS (NHK; #23 in WS)
    ...
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
  33. toddlj

    toddlj Well-Known Member

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    My (hopeful) guesses: I would guess that Nagasu will get TEB.

    as for China: With Korpi already at Rostelecom, she may be out of luck in terms of the timing. Biryukova or one of the other Russian ladies may get it instead.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
  34. Stephanie

    Stephanie Well-Known Member

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    I think Korpi might well get TEB since the French Fed tends to use European skaters (cheaper flights) for their subs.

    I really hope either Korobeynikova or Biryukova get Cup of China.
  35. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

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    That is a very very strong substitute list. They all deserve 2 GP. Those "subs" could come in and win a GP, so we will have to pay attention to the host federations' strategies.
  36. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    It still isn't clear from the contradictory wording* of the GP announcement whether they are supposed to be assigned in the order of their SB if they were Top 24 SB, or whether the host can choose any of the top five, including the Top 24 SB.

    *The wording says, "The alternate list needs to be worked through in ranking order for the top 24 ranked skaters/couples according to their Season's Best. All skaters/couples of the alternates list will be grouped in top ranked groups of five (5) skaters, out of which the respective Organizing Member may pick one skater/couple for invitation." For the Top 24 SB, they can't be both chosen in ranking order and in any order within their group of five based on OM's preference.

    If the former, and there is no strategy involved, then, assuming the Czisny passes because of injury recovery, that Nagasu, who is assigned to CoC, should get Kostner's spot at TEB. Korpi should be next in line, but she's already at RC, which would mean back-to-back competitions for her, traveling from China to Russia. (Even if she were considered for TEB, she would be going from Russia to Paris, although that isn't that much longer to travel or time-zone adjustment-wise than the SA/SC tandem that skaters do, when they are on different coasts.)

    Were Korpi skipped because CoC and RC are back-to-back, then Biryukova, who has NHK, would be next in line.
  37. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    Voronov and Guan were assigned to Contesti's vacant spots withouth being the first two in order so I guess the "chose anyone from top 5 alternates" apply.
  38. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Voronov was first in the order. What shows that FRA was able to choose from the Top 5, was that Guan was chosen over Dmmitriev, both of whom were assigned to CoC. (Hendrickx was already assigned to TEB and Rogozine has NHK the week after.)

    I wish they'd remove the conflicting information, because "ranking order" on its own applies to all skaters in the Top 75 who've met the GP minimum, and it only pertains to the creation of groups. Since they do mention being broken into groups, and not moving someone lower in the list in to become part of Top 5, Hendrickx, Rogozine, and Dmitriev should be considered next.
  39. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    US men -

    After some summer comps and assuming that Evan won't skate this year (wouldn't we have heard something by now?), I think Armin is a safer bet for the TBA slot at SA. He rocked at the Vail open. Plus, the other US men w/o a spot (Carriere, Aaron, Messing, Mroz) were either subpar or downright craptacular. I think only a scintillating performance from 1 of these 4 at Nebelhorn or Finlandia could change the trajectory (when does the USFSA choose the open slots, anyway?)

    US pairs -

    Thinking the TBA spot at SA will go to Z/B. They're doing quite well and very motivated. I think D/L and C/S have good options to be substitutes
  40. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    Hochstein should be in this conversation too. He was strong at Glacier Falls. I'd put him right behind Armin in the pecking order for the SA spot right now.
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