Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Oct 15, 2012.
Yes, her history on the international stage is sooooo stunningly long...
And that's the fault of Skate Canada, who didn't see fit to send her to the JGP or any International Bs last season.
Depends on what you mean by clean FS. Last season, Wagner competed in five international events and US Nationals. Her only clean FS was at Four Continents, where she received no edge calls, did not under-rotate, didn't fall, and didn't double-foot; in fact, she did not receive one -GOE score on any element.
At SC 2011, she had a fall and and edge call on the 3Lz
At NHK 2011, she had an edge call on the 3Lz and under-rotated two jumps
At US Nationals 2012, the protocol format doesn't have any specifics, but she singled a Sal and received -GOE on five of seven jump passes.
At Worlds 2012, she under-rotated a jump and had an edge call on the 3Lz
At WTT 2012 she had an edge call on the 3Lz, under-rotated a jump, and had -GOE on one other.
This year, she's had the edge call on the 3Lz at both SA and TEB, which is really too bad, because, otherwise, she would have had a perfect competition at TEB.
In seven FS's she's had one fall and rarely doubles or singles. She's had a very solid record, especially for US Ladies lately, but she's hardly delivered a clean FS time and time again. Which is, of course, not one of the characteristics that Blair cited.
Poor Osmond. Damn her for skating well.
STRONGLY disagree that an edge call would make a clean program considered not clean. Mrs. Kwan (my absolute favourite skater for the record) skated clean program time after time, we all agree with that....I do recall she had a flutz at least half the time, not much better than Ashley's flutz. I'm not going around saying half of Kwan's clean programs weren't so....
Well, if you're going to nitpick, in the SC FS, Osmond received edge calls on both 3f and 3z (which she fell on) and she stepped out of a 3t; she landed only 3 clean triples. At Nebelhorn, in the SP her 3t+3t got -1.3 GOE, and in the FS she got an edge call on the 3z and fell on an underrotated 3t. At JW, she doubled the 3z in her SP; in the FS: 3t+3t<, 1a+2t+1t.
You argued that Wagner was laying down clean FS "time and time again." I listed all of the instances last season and so far this season that Wagner received -GOE on jumps, and showed that last season, in five out of six events she was flawed in at least two jumps, with only one of them being an edge call, and at US Nationals, all but two jumps had -GOE. (Before last season, as a senior she was defined by her jump issues.) I tend to define "clean" as jumps with 0 to +GOE, but YMMV.
I'm not arguing that Osmond is cleaner now, because the data doesn't support it, or even that she is stronger than Wagner was at the same time in their careers -- Wagner was stronger jump-wise in her first Jr. Worlds in 2007 than in her second in 2009, where she had multiple non-edge flaws -- because I've no interest in spending any more time on it. What I do know is that Wagner is about as fast now as she's ever been, and Osmond skates with more speed and power. Wagner skates with enough speed, and the control she now has is wonderful to see.
I would agree with Blair that Osmond skates with "Lots of attack, spring, poise and choreography," although I find some of her choreography silly.
This thread should probably be closed since there's nobody getting replaced anymore, but I'd just like to pop in and say 1. Kaetlyn Osmond is awesome, 2. Ashley Wagner is awesome, 3. personally I don't see the need to compare these 2 skaters or cry foul on their PCS or attempt to make them seem less impressive by discussing their various edge calls, boring, and they are still top 10 in the World skaters so obv. they are doing stuff right, and 4. ISU rules need to be updated to include mag's suggestion about assigning pre-destined alternates so they can have visas ready. And that's about it.
...but what a stellar history. She has medaled at every senior competition she has entered. Won all of her senior international events, with gold at all GP assignments.
Maybe she should consider retiring while ahead.
There were no serious expectations for Osmond at Skate Canada. But now those expectations are sky-high.
The pressure will be on her to duplicate those results at every competition---including Worlds. That can be tough.
I hope her "nerves of steel" hold up. What potential this young woman has. I really enjoyed her attack and confidence on the ice. At least she doesn't have to worry about the "Puberty monster", she already very womanly and statuesque. I suspect she went through that when she was in Juniors and had her poorer showings there.
We shall see. During the NBC broadcast, commentators mentioned Kaetlyn said she does better when under pressure. She is not intimidated by crowds watching her, since she trains at the Ice Palace FSC which is located in the West Edmonton mall. The mall is the largest in North America, containing a waterpark, ice rink, amusement park, indoor lake, etc. Plenty of people watching her, while taking a shopping break. Almost all of the movie "Christmas in Wonderland" (starring Patrick Swayze and Carmen Electra) was filmed in the mall.
Wow why so much hate for osmond? She is 16 years old and in my eyes charming and bright light in skating. I love Wagner. I agree that both ladies have good attack and poise and both have good programs. Wagner is having a great year and i love what she is doing but she hasnt always been clean. Why is there a need to tear down a bright new skater to lift up a skater who in my eyes does not need the help as she is doing in with her skating
I certainly do not hate Osmond. I think she is very talented and very promising.
Ashley hasn't put 3F+3T or 2A+3T this season yet, so her programs were perhaps clean but not perfect.
Regarding the edge call, she can dump 3Lz and put another 2A instead.
If that's how you want to see her do a clean FS, though.
If she's planning to put in 3F/3T and 2A/3T this season, then with the repeat of the 3T and the 3F (including the solo 3F), she'll have to drop the 3Lo+2A sequence or the solo 3Lo or violate the Zayak rule. Presumably she'd change the 3Lo+2A seq to a 3Lo/2T or Lo/2T, so she could do a 2A without violating the two-2A limit/program.
Why she'd do this doesn't make sense numerically: with +GOE on the 2A -- based on her SP scores, the only place this year she did it solo -- ranging from 3.84-4.38 -- she'd have to lose -1.87 to -2.43 on the 3Lz to break even point-wise (with the second half bonus), and so far this year, she's lost -.35 and -.6 on the 3Lz. So even if there wasn't any psychological impact of including the 3Lz in the FS, it would be dumb for her to make that change, unless adding the 3F/3T and 2A/3T took so much out of her that she'd start losing 4-6X the amount on GOE by keeping it in.
I mean 3F+3T in the Short and 2A+3T in the Free.
I think she can also do the first 3F combination as 3F+2Lo+2Lo instead of 3F+2T+2T. She has done it a few years ago.
Then she wouldn't have to lose the 3Lo/2A sequence, and with the 2A/3T, she can't add a third 2A in the FS in any case.
All I know is that Katelyn didn't collapse at 2012 Nats, Junior Worlds, Nebelhorn Trophy or Skate Canada (and after beating Sotnikova, you can't say there were no hopes/expectations).
Worlds in Canada is a whole different level I know - only short of the Olympics. But she has been surprisingly resilient so far so let's see.