2012-13 ISU Grand Prix Alternate Selection (continued)

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

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    ok then...sorry they didn't TAKE the opportunity to fill the spot and give someone else the chance to compete.

    Kaetlyn's definitely not going. On her twitter.
     
  2. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you about waiting until the last minute, but she didn't wait until the last minute. That would have been the day of her flight to Japan. :(
     
  3. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

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    I think Alissa might have been trying to find that balance between waiting until the last minute and making a decision early enough to leave a window open for a replacement. So, about a week's notice sounds about right.
     
  4. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone seen Alissa on the ice preparing for competition?
     
  5. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

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    I'm willing to wear a wire.
     
  6. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

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    Bird on a wire?
     
  7. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I realize the ISU doesn't care what we think, but, what about a change where the alternate is named during the original selection process. Should that skater later get another event, they are removed as alternate and another is selected with x number of days. That way, if a skater pulls out say, anytime up to 5 days before the event, the alternate is ready to go with their visa. I have no doubt, that given the number of people being flown in for an event, the organizing committee could also be required to have an arrangement made with their travel agent to ensure the alternate can get to the event. This could somehow be worked out with the idea posted up thread that any skater who wins as GP, but does not have a second assignment, is automatically bumped to the top of the line perhaps for any remaining events except the one the next week. I am sure there are some details I'm missing, but at face value, it seems a more fair way to do things. It would stop what happened this year with TEB passing Mirai over and would allow someone like Kaetlyn the opportunity to have a second event.
     
  8. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies ├╝ber

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    They really need to make a rule that if a skater/team with only one assignment wins their first grand prix event that they move up to the top of the alternate list immediately.

    Or go back to 12 entries per grand prix in which case a skater like Osmond might have been given two spots immediately based on her season best ranking, but that's the topic for another day...
     
  9. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    I'm against that idea. The refusal to give Osmond the second spot is kind of a penality to SC's excessive home favoritism. The ISU shoudn't encourage such acts. As far as GP series are concerned, the host federation's interest is above indivisual skaters. The current conducts/rules need no change.
     
  10. Jenifer

    Jenifer Active Member

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    I'm confused. I thought a panel of international judges scored Osmond the winner at Skate Canada.

    But let's imagine that Osmond finished second at SC; 13 points would still put her in the running for the GPF. I think the ISU needs to decide what the point of the GP, and the Final, really is-- to prop up the home skaters of the feds or to provide an open competition for the best skaters in the world.
     
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  11. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    But why should the host feds' interests be more significant than anything else? The goal is a top-notch international series, right? Personally, I think the hosts were given waaaaaaaay too much power wrt alternate selection this season. Come on, Mirai got passed over four times in deference to basically everyone in the bottom 5 at TEB? That should never have been allowed!

    There needs to be some kind of reform.
     
  12. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah really? It's international judges who were grading her, not a Canadian panel. What are you talking about?

    And, IMHO they underscored her on TES.
    Her 3/3 in the short probably met every criteria for a GOE of +3 and only a few judges gave her 2.
    Her 2A came out of footwork and had a feature on a landing and was high with a flowing edge landing. She got +1. Don't agree
    She got an edge call on a 3F which is new for her so she took a hit there.
    Her GOE could have been higher on some of her LP elements

    I don't see evidence anyone was doing her any favors. She could have easily been another 5 points higher overall just on TES at a bare minimum.

    She was undermarked in PCS in the SP, so brace yourself, you'll see 7.5s in her next international if she skates that same short. Might want to get a head start thinking about whom you want to blame for that when the time comes.

    So yeah even if you separate her by a few pts from Suzuki in the LP on PCS on my card she still wins.
     
  13. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Osmond was ranked #41 on the 2011-2012 Seasons Best ranking. That would certainly not have guaranteed her two spots in the 2012 GP, even with 12 skaters in each event. With 12 spots, each federation has host picks and the seeded skaters (5), then two from the top 12 at Worlds (2); then 3 from the top 24 on the WR and SB lists that were not top 10 at Worlds plus the 2011-2012 JGPF and JW medalists. That leaves 2 spots for those in the top 75 on the SB list. Assuming that Skate Canada would have chosen Osmond for SC, there is no guarantee that any of the other 5 hosts would have chosen Osmond. At the time the original choices were made, Osmond's major international achievement was finishing 10th at JW. It is more likely that Lacoste would have gotten two, as the Canadian champion.

    And moving a one-event skater who won his/her first event to the top of the alternate list wouldn't guarantee selection. Nagasu was at the top of the alternate list from the beginning and didn't get a second event until NHK. Even if Osmond had been ranked ahead of Nagasu on the alternate list, NHK could have chosen Nagasu anyway.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  14. NMURA

    NMURA Member

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    Evidence of favoritism is everywhere. Only blind Canadians can't see. Osmond's PCS is just outrageous. I can't imagine historical precedences to give 27+ PCS for a literally junior level skater who has no remarkable records even in the junior ranks. Furthermore, Osmond skated #1 on the skating order. Under normal circumstances, the judges don't give generous scores to lower ranked skaters even if they skated cleanly. That is still evident in GP events (staring order is decided by WS). Only some "special" Canadian skaters who skated in Canada could have such "special" treatments.

    And you know, those judges at GP events are invited by host federations. They are expected to do some favors for home skaters. Not mandatory though, just they has sufficient reasons (=pressure) to boost some "special" skaters.

    FYI, a comparison with world jr champion Murakami's PCS (SP) at 2010 NHK trophy.

    Murakami 26.29 6.61 6.18 6.79 6.61 6.68
    Osmond 27.35 6.68 6.61 6.96 6.86 7.07
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  15. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I have not seen enough of Skate Canada to seriously comment about Osmond's skating or scores. However, while I imagine that skating in Canada was to her advantage, the bolded part is not evidence that the judges did their job improperly; rather the opposite, actually, since the scoring should reflect the quality of the skate and not the skater's position in the skating order.
     
  16. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    Osmond, hit that short program. I don't know who could complain about those scores. Long Program was a different story though.
     
  17. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    and she scored higher than Liza in PCS, Murakami and Tuk were underscored
    I don't really have anything against Osmond but what the judges gave her on PCS was outrageous

    anyways I don't think any replacement is possible now
    NHK is just 4 days away
     
  18. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Just WTF are you talking about? Different skaters, different programs, different competitions, different years, and you are comparing Murakami's scores from 2010 NHK trophy to Osmond's 2012 SC scores because???? Are you trying to suggest that debuting senior skaters are only allowed to score within some sort of corridor??

    And too bad Osmond is not getting the GP, but oh well. It's not the end of the world. And the current rules suck. There's too much conflict of interests between the hosting federations and the individual skaters. They need to change that for the future.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  19. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Change that how? It stands to reason that the host federation has the choice of replacement. It is, after all, their event.

    How exactly would you 'change' it?
     
  20. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Here's an interesting comparison.

    Elizaveta Tuktamysheva made her senior debut at Skate Canada 2011. This was after an impressive 2010-2011 season where she won two gold medals in the JGP, and won silver at the JGPF and JW.

    Osmond had just one international competition in the 2011-2012 season: 2012 JW, where she finished 10th.

    Here's how each scored at Skate Canada in their respective debuts:

    SHORT PROGRAM
    60.56 33.21 27.35 6.68 6.61 6.96 6.86 7.07 0.00 3t+3t, 3f, 2a OSMOND, SC 2012
    59.57 33.95 25.62 6.46 5.96 6.68 6.43 6.50 0.00 3z+3t, 3lo, 2a TUKTAMYSHEVA, SC 2011

    FREE SKATE
    117.81 64.21 53.60 6.89 6.21 7.00 6.86 6.54 0.00 3z+3t, 3z, 3f, 2a+2t, 3lo, 3s+2t+2lo, 2a TUKTAMYSHEVA, SC 2011
    115.89 57.28 59.61 7.32 7.25 7.61 7.46 7.61 1.00 3fe+2t, 3ze↓, 2a+3t, 3s, 3f, 3t-so, 2a+2t+2t OSMOND, FS SC 2012

    A program with just 3 clean triples and a fall gets a PCS score 6 points higher than a program with 6 clean triples?????
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
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  21. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    It's the ISU's event, or at least it should be. It's not the French Invitational or the Japan Invitational. It's an ISU Grand Prix event and THEY should be in charge of which skaters participate. The host federations have the luxury of picking the host picks, and that should be enough.
     
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    It does where the "split couples" and "returning split couples" category concerned in Pairs and Dance, so it is entirely possible to give an entire category of skaters precedence.

    The GP Announcement says that Top 24 SB skaters with one are to be selected in the order of ranking, but the ISU hasn't enforced that, or Nagasu would have been chosen earlier, as the only skater above her in precedence is Czisny.

    Ah, so skaters should only receive what they have in the past, regardless of changes in judges' training and marking clarifications from season to seaon. Now I understand.

    One way to change it is to dump groups and enforce the order of replacements, aside from host picks, in the same way they enforce the initial selection process, unless the next skater on the ordered list:
    1. Is already assigned to the event
    2. Would be the fourth from that country
    3. Declines a back-to-back event of more than a predefined amount of travel time/time zone change, in which case the skater would be next in line formthe next opening
    4. The host country turns down a visa request

    Another is to retain groups, but not move anyone new into the group, until the entire group is selected, unless there's a rules conflict. The groups could be limited to three, like the 1-3, 4-6, etc. groups in the initial selection, and/or they could assign spaces one category at a time and not go to the next until that category is empty, etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  23. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

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    What a crock...:blah:
     
  24. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Especially when their reasoning for GP minimums and reducing the fields is that the GP should showcase the "best of the best" and they allow the Feds to dilute the fields through the alternates process.

    (I realize that the other reasons for cutting the fields are to lower the costs of hosting and to compress the schedule.)


    And, to mention for the 348654334th time, Osmond was one of five choices the Japanese Fed had as an alternate, and the least likely choice based on tactical reasons.

    The Japanese Fed chose no one, and since Lafuente was in the alternates group, I wonder what punitive message they meant to send to the Spanish Federation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  25. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

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    I know that this thread is not in the Board Business forum, but how do I change my user title to:

    Osmond is the new Chan ?
     
  26. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    I know. Seriously :rolleyes:

    I won't wade into the right or wrong scores debate, but what's so hard to believe about Osmond's skating dramatically improving since last year? Compared to her JW performance, she's a totally different skater this year.

    Kaetlyn's skating has become reminiscent of Ashley Wagner's skating in many ways, IMO. Lots of attack, spring, poise and choreography.
     
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  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I forgot that part in CoP where technical content is required to be reflected in PCS, and a fall should mean a -5 in each PCS across the board.

    When you evaluate the actual bullet points of each of the PCS components, it must be a Chan-like misrepresentation that a skater who used the entire rink, had speed and power and multi-directional skating and who projected to the judges and the audience would get rewarded in PCS vs. a skater who had neither speed nor power, who tends towards the Kozuka end of the looking-at-the-ice spectrum, and who skated between the blue lines and said in interviews last season that ice coverage and speed were things she needed to work on in the future, but the focus last season was transitioning to seniors.

    All of that maple syrup at the judges' breakfast must have gone to their heads.
     
  28. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    It was probably cough syrup the judges had for breakfast!!!!!:D
     
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Yeah, they managed to reward different things in different skaters. They must have needed drugs for that.
     
  30. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Except Wagner has shown time and again that she can deliver a clean FS, something Osmond hasn't been able to do.