2012-13 Grand Prix Pre-announcement Thread

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by HisWeirness, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,777
    This will affect USFS selection to jw because skaters like Gao will no longer be able to go back to jw, which has been USFS strategy for Jr world that ensures their getting enough jgp spots next season.

    With the ladies field there may be enough good girls for US to send but if Brown does gp then the US will send three rookies to jw next year
  2. Anya

    Anya Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2002
    Messages:
    900
    There are skaters younger than Lipnitskaya with comparable level of skills (Elena Rodionova, for one) who have competed at Senior Russian Nationals even though they are definitely not eligible for the 2014 Olympics. Not to mention Tuktamysheva and Sotnikova, who debuted at Senior Nationals at 11 and 12, respectively, years before they were eligible even for Junior international events. It is a local Russian issue, and I do not see why the ISU should bother to take it into account (but I bet the RFSF will try to influence the outcome of this vote).
  3. Libertango

    Libertango New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2006
    Messages:
    623
    They might not have the choice and frankly I don't think they care! Chan has skated at TEB as many times as he has at SC since he's a senior! (He's never done COC, has been only once to COR, NHK ans SA).

    I'm not as convinced for Joubert at TEB because he has never been confortable in Bercy and now that he has a valid reason to skip it (another french contender for the podium) he might skip it. Besides he has mentionned wanting to try winning COC before he retires. He might want Rostelecom too since he may be training with Urmanov in Russia this year.
  4. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    I'm also pretty sure that it's not just me who has had more than enough of seeing Sui/Han win JGPs and Junior Worlds for a number of seasons now.

    Yes they are very good but they've already won Junior elite events many times now. Time to move on.
  5. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,777
    If new age rule takes effect and age maximum also lowered for jrs, more jrs will age out of jrs with few sr competition opportunities, esp since it is so "easy" to get a gp now (not)

    There really should be more sr opportunities for skaters. ISU, ugh!
  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,539
    While I think that there's no good reason why someone like Denis Ten should be able to go to Junior Worlds three years after finishing in the Top Ten at Worlds, I do wonder about the effect of this rule on some less accomplished skaters, especially if they're the only age-eligible Senior from their federation.

    I can foresee the day when some fifteen-year-old girl from, say, Croatia or Latvia finishes thirtieth at Europeans, goes through a growth spurt, and needs to rework her jumps. It might be in her interest to spend a season on the Junior Grand Prix, but, if I understand it correctly, the rule change would effectively limit her to Worlds, Euros, and Senior "B" events.
  7. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,883
    I agree that her competing at Nationals should not affect the ISU rules. I was just using that to demonstrate that Lipnitskaya is likely planning to turn senior internationally as soon as possible, so it would be a shame if a change in the ISU eligibility rules drastically changed her Olympic preparation at this time. Radionova is not affected because she won't be elible for Sochi anyway. The rule change, if passed and applied immediately, would only affect skaters who would be turning senior GP eligible in fall 2012. Lipnitskaya is the best known skater in that category. As an Olympic hopeful, this would give her only half of the ISU senior experience she would have anticipated having before the games.
  8. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,954
    I'd like a rule where once you've hit top 10 or 12 at Worlds, or top 6 at Europeans/4CC, you're ineligible for future junior-level international competitions.

    There are going to be winners and losers from any rule change, but this would at least take care of the biggest issues.
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    That is actually a very good point.

    We think about the likes of Sui/Han, Ten or Gao but this would really affect skaters from smaller countries.

    Especially if there is a situation (which is very often the case) where a country has only once decent skater.

    Case in point: Alina Fjodorova.

    She's the only Latvian skater with a number of consistent triples.

    Why shouldn't she do both Junior and Senior events if there isn't anybody in her country anywhere near her level?

    I like that idea.

    This would prevent the Sui/Hans and Denis Tens from returning to the Junior circuit, whilst giving skaters like Alina Fjodorova an opportunity to compete at both for a period of time.

    How would it affect her?

    Less exposure to international judges?

    You'd think that somebody who dominated the JGP circuit and then won Junior Worlds earned enough cred already for that to be a major issue.

    I guess your point is that it's not fair to her to change the rules now but I am confident she's going to be fine. :)
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
  10. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,540
    I don't really like that idea either, then you run into a weird situation like the grand prix after the Olympics where most of the top pairs weren't skating for what ever reason and if jr skaters got bumped up and once the sr skaters could skate again where would the jrs go If they weren't allowed back down to jrs?

    It should go by score not age. Once S/H started scoring in the 190s-200s they no longer should have been with the jrs.
  11. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,874
    I've heard conflicting statements about this: are the assignment requests of the seeded skaters binding, or the federations get to decide (and I don't mean just for host picks). I think Dai would be a more interesting choice, and he hasn't been to TEB in years.

    As for Joubert, I thought that he didn't like skating in France in general - but having skated well in Nice, maybe he's had a change of heart? I certainly expect him to go to CoC again, and I don't think he plans to train in Russia full-time.
  12. Libertango

    Libertango New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2006
    Messages:
    623
    I think there's a draw to decide the order of the federations. Skaters. Most of the time, the federations try to go with the athletes' choices (ie an European skater training in the US who would rather go to SA).

    For Joubert, his rink is closing down soon this year (16th May for the public, later for the skating club) so he's going to have to find an alternative.
  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10,242
    So does this mean, if Farris and Brown do GP next season, they can't be sent to JW even though they are age eligible for it for 2 more seasons? But if they chose to compete on the JGP again, they could be sent to JW or senior Worlds, 4CC, because they are eligible by age for all competitions and would compete as seniors at Nationals? Or would they not be permitted to go to 4CC or Worlds, even if they were to place top 2 at Nats, because they had competed as juniors during the fall season? In other Worlds, would what Ricky Dornbush did last season be no longer allowed as well? If this is how the new rule works, it's a tough situation, but if only the senior GP is limiting their post national international assignment options, then I wouldn't be surprised to see both of them on the JGP again, especially now that medalists at JGPF and JW are no longer garaunteed a GP. Really doesn't give boys in this situation much incentive to move up in the fall at all. Plus realistically they are probably aiming for 2018 as opposed to 2014 now that all these old guys keep sticking around and are talking about coming back.
  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,874
    Yes, I know, but I believe his plan is to remain in France.

    It'll be interesting to see who takes the ISU up on the three GP option; it worked out well for several skaters last year - will they repeat the strategy? And if I'm not mistaken, V/T opted for only two GPs so that they could do a senior B and get ranking points, but now they have more than enough, so maybe they'll be inclined to add a third event?
  15. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,883
    She has experience with international judges (junior level) but I think there is something to be said for actually skating with the seniors. The seniors are more intimidating, they skate bigger, they have better artistry, etc. Many juniors have spoken about how they feel different skating in the same warmup groups with top senior skaters. I think two seasons on the senior GP would be a huge asset to Lipnitskaya so that she could see how she fares next season and then make the necessary changes for 2013-14, like Tuktamyesheva has to do with her ice coverage for example.
  16. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,413
    There are no restrictions for the host picks, at least in the announcement. Several times in the past decade, there have been fields at NHK that didn't reflect the "one from 1-3, one from 4-6, etc." selection process. I think Japan can pick both Takahashi and Hanyu for NHK; if neither Chan nor Takahashi nor Hanyu chooses to do three events, another event would likely get two from the 4-6 (Joubert, Amodio, Brezina).

    Also, Plushenko has announced his intention of competing next season, and he's guaranteed one GP by virtue of a top 24 SB. (While he might drop out of 2nd SB at WTT, there aren't enough skaters at WTT to knock him out of top 24, even if every one were to surpass his score from Euros.) Almost every skater guaranteed one over the last four-five years has gotten two in the initial selection.

    Either TEB or Rostelecom could have two from 4-6 and Plushenko and have as strong a field as any other event. I doubt Joubert would like that at TEB, though.

    "Split Couples" are second highest on the alternates list. Highest are "Comeback" skaters who don't take the "guaranteed two" one-time option. There were none last season.

    The GP announcement is contradictory about when the original team had to be in the top 12 at a Worlds -- last season, the last two seasons, ever -- but given how it worked last season, it appears that:

    1. Each member of a team earns one slot on the replacement list, as Chock/Bates got two, one for Chock/Zuerlein, and one for Samuelson/Bates.

    2. It goes back at least two seasons, since Chock/Bates got one for Samuelson/Bates, and Samuelson/Gilles got one for Samuelson/Bates, and S/B skipped a season due to injury.

    It works a bit differently for Pairs, since they can do both Junior and Senior GP and compete at Jr. Worlds. I do think, though, once they compete in Senior championships, they shouldn't be allowed to return to JGP or Jr. Championships.

    I don't think this should influence whether Brown or any other Junior skates Seniors next year or are submitted for GP, especially if they are guaranteed a spot based on SB (Farris-19, Brown-23, Aldredge/Eaton). They know what the senior fields hold at GP and championships as well as their chances at Senior Nationals, and the decision should be based on when they want to make the change, not to be held back to earn development spots for the future, IMO.
  17. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,687
  18. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,777
    Didn't think it should, but Brown's decision will affect USFS's JW strategy though
  19. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10,242
    This. Brown and Farris are eligible for 2 more JWCs. Top juniors this season like Dolensky and Warren have aged out of ISU junior, and Choate is only eligible for one more season, and at 18 if he doesn't have a 3a yet, idk if he ever will. Chen will of course finally be eligible and is amazing, but will he have a 3a by the spring? He might but if he doesn't, even if he's skates well, he's likely to fair like Shoma Uno did this season and finish in the lower top 10. If USFS wants to keep its maximum number of JGP slots for the men, it's smart to send skaters like Farris and Brown to JW until they age out (unless they do really well at Nationals and make the senior Worlds team) because they can rely on them to place well and get the maximum number of JGP spots.

    Arguably, the young, unproven "true junior" skaters should be given the chance to compete at JW, but there is more of a risk this way.

    Hopefully this change won't influence Farris and/or Brown to stay on the JGP another season just to get a chance/basically a garauntee to get to go to JW next season should they not make the 4CC or World teams if they otherwise were planning to move up, but idk, with this change I wouldn't be surprised if they both stayed on the JGP another season. So I'm not sure if I like this change. Josh especially is ready for the GP, he has all the tricks, his skating is senior quality, but idk if this rule change will influence he and his coaches decision.
  20. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,539
    Indeed.

    It's also a consideration when there's a small federation with several decent skaters, such as Belgium with Kevin van der Perren and Jorik Hendrickx or Italy with Carolina Kostner, Valentina Marchei, and several other ladies who might be able to rack up a respectable score.

    Here are a few examples I can think of right away of skaters who continued skating Juniors after making their international Senior debut (selected competitions only):

    Javier Fernández

    2006-07: Euros (28th), Worlds (35th)
    2007-08: JGP Estonia (9th), JGP Great Britain (11th), Euros (17th), World Juniors (13th), Worlds (30th)
    2008-09: JGP Spain (4th), JGP Mexico (8th)

    Elena Glebova

    2004-05: Euros (25th), World Juniors (20th), Worlds (33rd)
    2005-06: JGP Estonia (6th), Euros (15th), World Juniors (11th), Olympics (28th)
    2006-07: JGP Hungary (6th), JGP Czech Republic (3rd)

    Kevin van der Perren

    1999-2000: Euros (28th), World Juniors (26th), Worlds (31st)
    2000-01: JGP Norway (11th), Euros (26th), Junior Worlds (23rd), Worlds (33rd)

    Jorik Hendrickx

    2009-10: Euros (20th), World Juniors (15th)
    2010-11: JGP Austria (7th), JGP Germany (6th), Euros (16th), World Juniors (13th), Worlds (19th)

    Francesca Rio

    2008-09: Euros (15th), World Juniors (11th)
    2009-10: JGP Germany (21st)

    It's hard to see what benefit there would have been to preventing these skaters from continuing to skate Juniors. They certainly weren't world-beaters at the time.
  21. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,874
    I don't think this is true, and I can't recall it happening, at least not in the recent past - if there were no 1-3 or 4-6 skaters at an event, it was likely because of retirements/injuries, but the original assignment would have included one seeded skater from each group. E.g. for NHK - 2007 you had Takahashi from the previous Worlds' medalists and Verner from 4-6 guys; 2008 had Johnny Weir (3), Takahashi (4) would have been the other seeded skater but tore his ACL; 2009 had Joubert from the 1-3 group and Kozuka as the 4-6 skater, 2010, Takahashi and Abbott; 2011 was an easy selection, because one group had Kozuka and the other included Takahashi.

    Now that the seeded skaters can get three events, it is possible to have more than two seeded skaters, but I believe every event is still supposed to have at least one medalist and one 4-6 finisher.
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,413
    I wished they would be explicit in their own documentation, but that is too much to hope for. NHK has had exceptions, but never to have two 1-3 or two 4-6 skaters from Japan.

    From 2003-2011, there were two skaters/teams in either the 1-3 or 4-6 groups from a single country -- all of them host countries -- but none were assigned to the host event the following GP season:

    2003:
    Ladies: Cohen and S. Hughes (4-6)
    Pairs: Totmianina/Marinin and Petrova/Tikhonov (1-3); Pang/Tong and Zhang/Zhang (4-6)

    2004:
    Men: Weiss and Weir (4-6)
    Ladies: Cohen and Kwan (1-3)
    Pairs: Shen/Zhao and Pang/Tong (1-3)

    2005:
    Pairs: Totmianina/Marinin and Petrova/Tikhonov (1-3)

    2006:
    Men: Sandhu and Buttle (4-6)
    Ladies: Meissner and Cohen (1-3)
    Pairs: Pang/Tong and Zhang/Zhang (1-3)

    2007:
    Ladies: Ando and Asada (1-3)
    Pairs: Shen/Zhao and Pang/Tong (1-3)

    2008:
    Dance: Belbin/Agosto and Davis/White (4-6)

    2009:
    None

    2010:
    Men: Abbott and Rippon (4-6)

    2011:
    Men: Takahashi and Oda (4-6)
    Pairs: Kavaguti/Smirnov and Bazarova/Larianov (4-6)
    Dance: Davis/White and Shibutani/Shibutani (1-3)

    2012:
    Men: Takahashi and Hanyu (1-3); Joubert and Amodio (4-6)

    In the case of retirements, last season's announcement said if there are fewer than six seeds, they would not be replaced. If there are vacancies for 7-12, they look for skaters/teams with SB better than the lowest SB among the 7-12 skaters/teams, and slot them in, and if there aren't any, they go to #13 at Worlds. That's a change from two seasons ago, where they replaced a missing seed with a skater/team that had a higher SB than the lowest of the SB among the top 1-6 skaters.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012
  23. NMURA

    NMURA Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Messages:
    375
  24. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,476
    I am expecting Miki to come back ! :cheer2:

    I'd take her over Murakami, and with Mao not doing well
    she could still be Japanese lady No.1 if she comes back next season
  25. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,904
    would be so :rollin: , if she comes back.

    but as we read in morozovs interview, the chapter ando has closed. i cannot imagine him being her coach after they split up as a couple. i thought she may could go back to nobu sato, but with asada there, unlikely. let´s wait and see...
    lang way until autumn, but crossing fingers.
  26. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,777
    If she does enter herself in the gp, that will mean even fewer spots for the other ladies. I'm curious how ISu will handle that, considering they are the ones who reduce the number of competitors in each GP to ten.
  27. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,904
    sounds a little bit reprouchful.
    as a two time world champ and 5-times top6-finisher, she has the right, imo.

    it would be a thousand times better to see ando (even not at her best) than given the spots to hecken, meite or helgesson 1 or 2 :D

    don´t misunderstand me, i don´t like the 10 spots at gp , i would prefer 12 again and i lwould like to see those skaters (between 10-20 at worlds), but ando is so much more worth to see.
  28. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,884
    I would like to see 12 spots again, too.
  29. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,954
    I'm expecting Mao to do a lot better once she has some real time to mourn her mother. What an incredibly tough season this has been for her.
  30. aemeraldrainc

    aemeraldrainc Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    305
    Forgive my ignorance, but what Morozov interview are you referring to? What thread is it posted in?
  31. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,904
    this one

    http://eg.ru/daily/sports/31120/

    was posted in the from russia with love 2 - thread, just before it was closed and we moved on the the off-season-thread.
    was an interview about his personal life, life as an athlete and coach.

    question was about miki; i´ll copy from my earlier posts there what he said:

    he was going to marry her, but things turned out to be differenz now. she is in japan with ehr mother and he thinks, she will never come back to compete.
    the chapter ando is closed for him, andos mother is against the relationship, he didn´t want to give any details.
  32. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,166
    ISU Season Best Total scores have been updated through World Team Trophy (Men, Ladies, Pairs, Dance) - New SB scores for:

    1 Daisuke Takahashi JPN
    18 Adam Rippon USA
    21 Kevin Reynolds CAN
    56 Paolo Bacchini ITA

    4 Akiko Suzuki JPN
    29 Valentina Marchei ITA

    6 Anna Cappellini/Luca LaNotte ITA
  33. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,344
    In the list on the first page, Contesti is listed two times, one in the garanted 2 spots as top 12 at worlds and one at season best top 24, so you can drop him the second time, making the spot free for someone else
  34. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,864
    Not surprised AT ALL that Ando's mom was against the relationship!
  35. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,019
    WHAT? THAT RELATIONSHIP WAS REAL?
  36. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,166
    Konstantin Menshov picked up 250 points for his win at Gardena Spring Trophy which should move him into the top 24 in the ISU World Standings after the forthcoming update, thereby guaranteeing him 1 Grand Prix invitation under the current selection rules.

    UNOFFICIAL PROJECTED ISU WORLD STANDINGS
    1 Patrick Chan CAN 4080
    2 Daisuke Takahashi JPN 3476
    3 Yuzuru Hanyu JPN 3088
    4 Michal Brezina CZE 2751
    5 Jeremy Abbott USA 2679
    6 Artur Gachinski RUS 2625
    7 Takahiko Kozuka JPN 2592
    8 Samuel Contesti ITA 2435
    9 Javier Fernandez ESP 2331
    10 Florent Amodio FRA 2219
    11 Adam Rippon USA 2013
    12 Tomas Verner CZE 1936
    13 Kevin Van Der Perren BEL 1893 (reportedly retiring)
    14 Brian Joubert FRA 1859
    15 Alexander Majorov SWE 1851
    16 Denis Ten KAZ 1850
    17 Nobunari Oda JPN 1825
    18 Ross Miner USA 1682
    19 Han Yan CHN 1667
    20 Richard Dornbush USA 1547
    21 Konstantin Menshov RUS 1237 1507
    22 Takahito Mura JPN 1465
    23 Jason Brown USA 1452
    24 Tatsuki Machida JPN 1442

    25 Nan Song CHN 1408
    26 Joshua Farris USA 1317
    27 Jorik Hendrickx BEL 1275
    28 Keiji Tanaka JPN 1259
    29 Abzal Rakimgaliev KAZ 1234
    30 Kevin Reynolds CAN 1229
    31 Peter Liebers GER 1205
    32 Daisuke Murakami JPN 1192
    33 Andrei Rogozine CAN 1173

    ETA: Yuki Nishino picked up 225 points for her silver medal at Gardena Spring Trophy but it doesn't look like it will be enough to move her into the top 24 after the update (maybe around #28?).

    UNOFFICIAL PROJECTED ISU WORLD STANDINGS (corrections welcomed)
    (1-24 on page 1 of this thread)
    25 Cynthia Phaneuf CAN 1371
    26 Caroline Zhang USA 1315
    27 Sonia Lafuente ESP 1161
    28 Yuki Nishino JPN 1141
    29 Polina Korobeynikova RUS 1121
    30 Risa Shoji JPN 1101
    31 Julia Lipnitskaia RUS 1100
    32 Christina Gao USA 1098
    33 Kexin Zhang CHN 1072
    34 Yrethe Silete FRA 1063
    35 Rachael Flatt USA 1011
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
  37. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Messages:
    3,550
    Actually it's May 6th, meaning this week-end was the last time I could skate there before they take it down :( . Hoping they'll manage to keep the same smell !

    For Brian, he said sometimes during the season, and this was backed up by Didier, that he may have to chose which event to skate in as he is not getting younger. So maybe he'll just skip part of the GP season ?
    But he also said in the past that he needs competition to compete well, and he still has not won CoC.
    And French Masters are usually early September / October.
  38. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Morozov shagging his skaters. Shocking. :p
  39. Jeschke

    Jeschke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,904
    :biggrinbo
  40. aemeraldrainc

    aemeraldrainc Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    305
    Oh ok. I missed it the first time it was posted so thanks!