2011-12 Season ISU Technical Requirements and Changes

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by HisWeirness, Apr 5, 2011.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Reducing GOE for steps not corresponding to the music is great in theory, the problem is they didn't specify what that means.

    And let's face it, the judges are going to ignore that.

    Great. Twists are usually badly enough executed as this is. And the judges don't usually apply the deductions that are in place already.

    Another awful awful change. Why simplify it? Not like it's that hard to do anyway.

    I am very dissapointed that flying upright (which is just :rolleyes:) hasn't been banned in the SP.

    Good change. Some of the "difficult entries" are performed for a millisecond and really shouldn't count.

    Second year in the row because the judges continue to ignore this. :mad:

    A number of skaters performed no steps whatsoever during the Ladies SP at 2011 Worlds and the deductions that are in the rulebook haven't been applied.

    I think it's gonna be a dead rule.

    Same as that rule saying that a sit position means buttocks not higher than the skating knee.

    A few skaters at 2011 Worlds were higher and none of them ended up having those positions called as upright ones...
  2. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    I know. At least the SPTC keeps bringing up the issue. It would be really sad if no one cared that the basic SP requirements were not being met by many skaters. But, as you pointed out, the JUDGES need to act. :(

    If the judges and callers start enforcing these rules on the GP (like when the UR rule came in with a vengeance) the skaters may respond and change their programs.
  3. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Has anything changed with pair lifts? I hate that some pairs seem to have the same lift 3 times in their LP w/ minor variations getting in or out. They all seem to go to the catchfoot position before the exit. :wall:
  4. Cloudy_Gumdrops

    Cloudy_Gumdrops New Member

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    I hope so.

    I'm so sick of those ugly catchfoot lifts.
    shan and (deleted member) like this.
  5. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like it's going to be harder to get level 4 elements basically?

    Is the reduction in the GOE for level 4 steps an attempt to encourage skaters to go for better executed level 3 steps with +GOE than poorly done attempts at level 4? I'm not sure I get the point of the change.
    That and the sbs footwork are the biggest issues with pairs right now. At the very least limit the catchfoot to one lift a program.
    It's probably done to reduce the flailing look of the footwork sequences. I'm not necessarily unopposed to it. :shuffle:
    I can't decide if I like it or not. I like seeing laybacks and back cross spins from men, so I'm kind of falling on the side of keeping it.
  6. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Only 1 flying spin now? Am I reading that right, or can a skater still do a 2nd flying entrance to a spin w/o invalidating the spin. They just wouldn't get credit in the base value of the spin. Maybe it could be viewed as a transition, lol.

    Regarding steps into the solo jump, I would like to see them go farther and let the caller award levels. It could either be an addition to the base value, or a factor to multiply with the base value of the solo jump
  7. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind flying laybacks, they are unusual and not very easy to do. But flying upright is just a joke. It's so much easier to perform than both flying sit and camel.

    Sounds great! Points added depending on how complex the entry is and the caller flagging total lack of steps for a deduction like with an "e." :)
  8. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    In my experience, the "sit=butt not higher than knee" is still being applied. Do you have any specific examples from Worlds? I'd love to look at the video. (Not being sarcastic - genuinely curious how it's being applied internationally.)

    One of the requirements for the pairs LP is that all three lifts must be of a different nature and that one of them must be a Group 3 or 4. From the perspective of a pairs skater, needing to perform three different entries is not a "minor variation."

    Difficult flying entry/landing on same foot as takeoff is a feature for spins. I think what this is saying is that the "flying bullet" only counts once per program, just like the backward entry only counts once per program. A skater can fly into more than one spin, but they only get credit for the flying feature once. It's also not quite accurate to say that they "wouldn't get credit in the base value of the spin." If - for example - a skater does a difficult entry into a flying camel as part of the combo spin, and then does another flying camel as the flying spin, they would still receive the base value of a "FCSp," but the flying entry would not increase the level.

    The ISU uses "base value" in two different ways, which is confusing... but what's new? :slinkaway
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Phaneuf always lands her flying sit in the upright position. But maybe, because she doesn't complete a full revolution in it, it doesn't count? Should't it be called as a flying upright? Or at least deducted for the wrong landing position?

    I don't think there is anything in the rules about situations like this.

    Joubert, on the other hand, lands his flying upright in the sit position.

    Two examples of bum over knee from 2011 Worlds:

    - Asada's flying sit (the variation at the end)
    - Ando's flying sit (the pancake variation at the end)
  10. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    It's allowed to have part of the spin in an "intermediate position," especially for difficult variations, as long as a certain number of revolutions in the spin as a whole meet the standard for the basic position.
  11. nro

    nro New Member

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    Wow, the lady's position is important but why so draconian? In that case, why not also completely nullify lifts if the lady's position is sloppy, or spins/jumps that are out of synch.
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I didn't realise that.
  13. aster

    aster Member

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    They will still get credit for the spin, but if it is not a combo spin, the tech. specialist should not be giving the skater credit for any feature that doesn't meet the definition of a sit spin (if it's a flying/solo sit of course). Intermediate positions are only allowed in combo spins.
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Great, even less values for GOEs, because you know, who cares about quality? :drama:
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    So those variations shouldn't count (thus lowering the level), right?

    Or should they count as an upright position, thus changing the flying sit into flying change combination spin?

    Tell me about it. :(
  16. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

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    I hate this. Why should they not award the few skaters who put their energy in the Level 4 step sequences. There aren't that many and it needed great basics to reach them
  17. aster

    aster Member

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    Depends on the spin:

    In a combination spin, an imperfect difficult variation (usually, a sit spin that is too high) would theoretically count as an intermediate position. When it's obvious, though, that the skater is going for a sit spin and just doesn't do it correctly, often the technical specialist doesn't count the DV at all. As well, for CCoSp (combo spins which change feet), a skater must have all 3 basic positions (sit, camel, upright) with one on each foot, so if the DV is too high to count as a sit spin and there isn't another sit spin in there, the spin is automatically a level 1.

    In a one position spin (with or without change of foot or flying entry), they wouldn't count unless it looks like the skater actually intended to do a combination spin. Usually, in the case of a too high sit spin, it's pretty obvious that it's just a too high sit spin and not an upright spin or intermediate position, so the tech. specialist just ignores that DV and considers the rest of the spin. They can also used the planned program content sheet to figure out what the intended spin is. These are often inaccurate, though, since coaches and skaters change programs and don't update them.
  18. YoenNL

    YoenNL Active Member

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    I am too. I had proposed to take it out of the list of elements in one of the TC reports. That could have been a solution not having it to pass through Congress as a rule change.
  19. YoenNL

    YoenNL Active Member

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    Let's bring on an "s" - button for the Tech panel?
  20. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    I watched Phaneuf's SP from Worlds 2011. In that program, I think the "time" that it takes her to obtain the sit position after the fly is a GOE issue, not a technical panel concern. It's clearly not a flying upright, because she's clearly trying to obtain a sit position - which she certainly does.

    This stuff used to be written down in the 100 page version of First Aid. I confess that I have no idea where to find it now that First Aid has gone on a major diet.

    Long or short? Gkelly's response captures what I was thinking might have happened, though...
  21. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    She gets extra points for accuracy.
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    "s" as in, for sh!t jumping!
  23. ItalianFan

    ItalianFan New Member

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  24. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    Today the ISU released ISU Communication 1677 (34 pages) which includes technical rules for ice dance (Scales of Values, GOE, and Components for pattern dances, Scales of Values, GOE, and levels for required elements, Program components marking, clothing restrictions).

    Here is an excerpt from the clothing restrictions:
    page 30 (program components adjustments):
    Last edited: May 24, 2011
  25. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    So we're back to the uplifting effect, eh? No more Schindler's List, Tristan & Isolde, -- and maybe not Salome either?

    And I've yet to hear an Argentine Tango with anything like an uplifting effect. (Though for me personally, loss of accordions playing tango would be an improvement.)
  26. BittyBug

    BittyBug Quadless

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    And exactly how are they going to determine what is "understandable to the audience"?
  27. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    LOL those rules are sooo pointless.. and in the ends the judges won't bother with them like they didnt with Amodio. I bet Khokhlova or Hoffmann will still manage to dress slutty enough :)
  28. love skating

    love skating Clueless American

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    Will this be otherwise known as the Domnina & Shabalin rule?

    I don't know why a dance has to be uplifting and/or understandable. IMO dance is art and art isn't always uplifting or understandable.
  29. peibeck

    peibeck Left in the Kiss-n-Cry

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    :blah:

    Where are they supposed to make this deduction in the PCS? Choreography? Performance?

    I'd rather have an "annoyingly perky" deduction than one for music that isn't "uplifting." :p
  30. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    "not clearly understandable" comes out of composition/choreography (CC)
    "music does not have an uplifting effect" comes out of interpretation/timing (IT)
  31. Hedwig

    Hedwig New Member

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    I am no native English speaker so I may be off base but isn't uplifting not meant to be something like happy/clappy/perky but more "morally erecting" (which is the direct translation from German) which could mean pretty much everything apart from elevator music?
  32. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Presumably narcocorridos then are explicitly forbidden ;) ??

    They are a distinctly non-uplifting polka.
  33. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Shame that it didn't work. :(

    That would be awesome! Lack of steps is never going to get deducted by the blind judges otherwise.
  34. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Yes, yes, yes.
  35. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    If that rule applies to just the FD, my take of it would be that the uplifting effect is not a requirement in the SD and I'd be really curious to know why they don't use the same rule for both segments.:confused:
  36. zotza

    zotza Active Member

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    I think the ISU wants to keep ice dancing fans as far away from depression as possible .And as a result they will surely lead us to depression:rofl:

    I found an article about the uplifting effect in art.

    http://www.northshorelij.com/NSLIJ/The arts have uplifting effect for people regardless of thei

    So if they use the term as it's used in this article,they really mean happy programs,that put a smile on our face.But how can they really dictate what makes a person feel good.For example,classical music is considered non uplifting ?Or will they make all teams dance to "Ode to Joy"?
  37. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    They rewarded the Shibs for what I think they mean by it.
  38. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    That "upifting" rule depresses the heck out of me, and the "understandable" rule escapes my comprehension :(
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  39. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I am sure the issuing of communications is just a conspiracy with the timber industry to keep people printing more paper.
  40. Conga

    Conga New Member

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    ITA! These rules may just put an end to my love of ice dance...:(