1994 Olympics in Lillehammer - Controversial Results across the Board!

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Xela M, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    The fact that judges could do whatever they wanted disregarding the rules, made the mockery of the 6.0 system. It's not surprising it was changed eventually.
  2. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    They still can do whatever they want. Have you watched skating the last 3 years. The judging isnt improved, if anything it is even worse now. The journey from Chan's 4 or 5 mistake victories to Sotnikova SkateGate, and V&T's slew of 10s for interpretation and performance for Jesus Chris Superstar in between. They have even more marks to play around with, and even more possible outs to justify whatever they want to do.

    BTW, just curious are you British?
  3. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    .

    No, I'm not and have never had anything to do with UK apart from visiting it a few times during holidays:).

    I also don't think that the current system is perfect. I'm sure that some of the verdicts are questionable and changes are needed. And I don't enjoy ice dancing inder the current system as I used to. But I believe the system isn't worse that the previous one and despite all imperfections it is fairer.
  4. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    Going to agree with post #321 and throw a bit more memory lane hyperbole into the thread. Torvill & Dean should not have been anywhere near the Russians in the compulsory dances. The judges held them up; the British judge even had them first. It's not surprising, then, that regardless of the various merits of the free dances, the panel would only award them bronze.
  5. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Specific rules tended to change every 2 years at the ISU congress, as is still the case.

    IIRC, the rules at the time allowed a certain number of separations less than 5 seconds, and one separation up to 10 seconds that either must be or must not be connected to stop in the middle or at the beginning/end of the program. I don't remember the details.

    We'd have to try to find a copy of the dance rules for 1993-94 to verify.

    Wilson's comments in the broadcast didn't cover the sum total of all the separation rules at the time. So relying on them to search for deductions would be an inaccurate approach.

    As would relying on a rulebook from 1992 or 1996 or 2014.
  6. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Mrs. Parry even had T&D 1st in the Starlight Waltz, their weaker of the two compulsory dances. No other judge had them higher than 3rd, and three judges even had the guts to put them 4th behind the Finns in that particular dance. She should be ashamed of her biased judging at those Games. She was worse than the Russian judge. She got a remprimand after the dance event for biased nationalistic scoring.

    The worst flag waving judging I saw though was Bill McLaughlin at the 97 worlds. He placed Bourne & Kraatz first in every dance at those worlds. Even their original dance where most judges had them 4th or 5th (despite that they came 3rd barely). He was the only judge to place B&K 1st in any of the dances, and in 2 of the 4 dances, their 2nd compulsory dance and original dance, no other judge had them higher than 3rd. I cant believe he only got a warning and not a suspension.

    Wilson always hated G&P so she is not an unbiased source. I am not surprised she would be looking for any explanation for them not deserving the gold medal, especialy with her good buddy Maya Usova sitting in the gold medal spot at that moment. Rumor is she hated them as she is a good friend of Maya Usova and was even a bridesmaid at Maya's wedding, so Pasha'a affair with Zhulin and the subsequent divorce upset her. G&P beating U&Z for the 94 Olympic Gold probably really upset her, and explains the ever increasing hate filled speeches on them in her commentary. That she was a huge fan of all of Bourne & Kraatz, Krylova & Ovsiannikov, and Anissina & Peizerat who G&P kept dominating and beating (deservedly), just added more fuel to her fire down the line.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
  7. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Ugh I remember her comments on G&P's legendary Libertango OD, which pretty much everyone agrees is a masterpiece. She said something like "they never touched the audience" or some similar nonsense. I also remember her trying to prove that B&K were so much better than G&P, which makes any statements by her about G&P completely ridiculous and irrelevant.
  8. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I normally think of Tracy Wilson has an excellent ice dance commentator but her commentary on Grishuk & Platov should be looked on as a major source of shame for her.
  9. irishcream

    irishcream New Member

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    It had to be motives unrelated to their skating too, since she is far too technically knowledgable to really believe the crap she spoke on them. Even if she didnt like their style of skating, she knows full well the objective merits that go into giving a score, and is able to do that for anyone else (eg- Slutskaya whose skating she didnt like but knew her scores were justifiable and said so).
  10. irishcream

    irishcream New Member

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    As for T&D I think they were upset they werent treated like G&G in their comeback. G&G were treated like the class of the field and certain to win unless she they fell a couple times anyway. T&D are considered the best dance team ever generally speaking, just as G&G are, so they probably felt they deserved the same treatment as G&G got but werent close to it in the end.
  11. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    The difference of course being that G&G were still head and shoulders above everyone else bar M&D and were in their 20's looking and skating better than ever. Whereas T&D were in their mid 30's looking and skating OK-ish but by no means in a league of their own.

    I agree though that T&D expected a red carpet to be rolled out for them and be handed the OGM before they even skated.
  12. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Thanks for the info.

    Yes, it seems that's what we need here.

    That's helpful to know. Yes, we don't want to jump to conclusions until we can see things in writing. But if her marks were inaccurate, that would be pretty lame. I mean, if you're going to appear on TV to criticize something, you should make extra sure you know what you're talking about. ;)

    True.
  13. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Not necessarily--you really have to weigh each individual statement. For instance, if she said, "Evgeni has brown hair," would that automatically make it false? ;) OTOH, it does make sense to scrutinize anything she might have to say about them.
  14. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    That's why it's hard for me to get all choked up about the fact they didn't win. They already had an OGM. I sympathize a bit more with U&Z, who were waiting their turn just like all the other top couples had in the past.

    Even if an athlete/team who truly deserves a second OGM (in a later Games) is scored a bit unfairly and ends up with silver, is it really a tragedy, especially if they've made a killing up to that point? Are they really going to end up homeless and shivering on the streets in the winter? ;)

    Here's something to think about: Would U&Z have stayed on top of the dance world if the Olympics hadn't changed schedules?
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  15. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    I don't think so. G&P only got better with age and although i didn't like their FD in 1996, if they did their 1997 Libertango and The Feeling Begins - there would have been no contest. G&P were simply the better team.
  16. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    I think we should distinguish Tracy Wilson's subjective statements from those objective ones. When she says "they never touched the audience" or "they don't understand the music" well, etc. is not the same as when she talks about the rules.
    I was always sorry for U&Z. Especially that I don't think their FD in 1994 was that bad. Well, it wasn’t a masterpiece, it was worse than their routines from previous years but personally I preferred it to G/P sloppy rock and roll routine. And their OD was much more better than G/P OD.
    Maybe it’s not a tragedy, especially from the perspective of viewers. But if athlete/team truly deserves a second OGM, it’s never ok if they didn’t get it because of unfair judging.
    Probably it would have been even more difficult for them in 1996 than in 1994. Not only because G/P were better, but also taking into account the strained relationship between Usova and Zhulin. As someone has already mentioned in this thread that probably even already in 1994 they didn’t train as much as they should have.
  17. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

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    ..but it will always be a matter of debate/taste/like and dislike and also of morality what "deserve" means. This goes for all medals, all competitions. The judges have their opinion (more or less based on rules and on knowledge, but also on their personal preferences), and viewers have their points of view, too.
    Stating that a skater/team deserved a (second) OGM and saying why one thinks so is reasonable, but it will inevitably lead to the conclusion that the actual winner of the OGM is considered undeserving, and that's something I generally try to avoid.
    This is why I'm so utterly disgusted by some T/D-fans who can't stop raving on YT that G/P should give "back" the OGMs they had "stolen" from T/D.
  18. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    I don't know why people often try to discredit G&P's achievements and i actually believe Tracey Wilson and Chris Dean have a lot to answer for when it comes to G&P slander. G&P were a technically superior team who did more difficult tricks at higher speed. It's not surprising they won as many competitions as they did. In 1994 T&D did not deserve to win. Their compulsories were terrible and at the Europeans actually received a 5.2 from a judge. They deserved similar marks for their waltz at the Olympics. You don't hear Katti Witt demanding an OGM for her 1994 performance just because she is a legend of the sport. T&D 10 years older were not on the same level as G&P.
  19. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember exactly what Wilson had to say. I don't remember her giving marks.

    I'm not saying that her comments about deductions and rules were inaccurate -- just that she didn't read the whole rulebook to the audience. So possibly any fans who took what she did say, unaware of the rest of the rules, might have extrapolated inappropriate and concluded that three deductions were warranted when really it was only one.
  20. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    My opinions about G/P have nothing to do with Wilson or Dean. Actually, only recently, have I seen some YT clips where Wilson commentated. In 1994 when I watched Olympics in front of TV in my country I had no idea what some commentators in Canada, USA, UK or wherever had to say about the competition. I also didn't have any access to postolympics interviews. So the fact that I found both OD and FD not deserving gold, was just based on my observation. I'm not going to argue that others have to agree with my opinions. What Shyjosie has written (
    ) is probably right.
    But Xela M, you also keep repeating that G/P were so superiour. If it were so obvious, there weren't be so much talking even 20 years after Lillehammer. So you have the right to think so, but you should realise that other people have the right to think otherwise and it doesn't mean they are less right than you are. You keep repeating that T/D and their fans wanted gold for T/D just because they were legends. Do you really believe that that was the reason why so many people were disappointed with the result? Don’t you think that maybe people really found their performance better than G/P's? Do you really think that FS fans want their favourites to achieve medals just for their past achievements and not for what they show on the ice?
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
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  21. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    There is a link a few pages back.
  22. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    BTW If anybody asks why U/Z or T/D still moan about the Lillehammer results, I would like to notice that it was neither U/Z fan nor T/D fan who started this thread. It was G/P fan who wanted to bring back the controversy again.
  23. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    First of all, i started this thread to discuss ALL the figure skating results in Lillehammer, not just G&P's win and I actually started it after re-watching G&G's and M&D's performances in pairs (as I mention in my first post). I have absolutely no problem with T&D's or U&Z's fans, but with Chris Dean himself being a sore loser and starting a campaign against G&P. Chris along with Tracey Wilson created the impression that G&P were robbing more talented teams of their medals, which was very far from the truth.
  24. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    THIS. While I agree G/P were definitely talented, I don't believe they should have won that year (I was torn between U/Z and T/D, slightly in favor of U/Z) because that rock n' roll number was a speedskate with tricks, not an ice dance. And I will admit my "less than love" for this team has nothing to do with Evgeny. Pasha is my least favorite skater personality-wise of all time because of her unfettered narcissism. That woman was so in love with herself I'm surprised she didn't insist on carrying a mirror onto the ice so she could blow herself kisses while she danced. I did love "Libertango," but her selfish attitude just carried onto the ice for me and ruined the skating. While the "woman is the pretty picture, and the man is the frame" in ice dancing, you should be able to focus on both skaters. With Pasha, it was always about her, Evgeny was just along for the wild ride.
  25. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Whilst I agree that Pasha was an acquired taste personality-wise, she was an absolutely incredible ice dancer. Evgeny (and the media) always portrayed him as being this poor angel who was being dragged along kicking and screaming by the evil selfish speed-addict Pasha Grishuk. Whereas Evgeny was very competitive himself and loved it. He didn't dump Grishuk before they won everything there was to be won in amateur sport because he knew he couldn't win without her. Otherwise he could have stayed with Dubova and skated with Navka or with Usova when her and Zhulin couldn't stand each other anymore. Grishuk was unique, just like Chris Dean was unique. Both were extremely selfish, competitive and narcissistic, but amazing ice dancers.

    P.S. It's not like Chris was a "frame" to Jayne. On the ice he demanded to be seen more than her.
  26. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    All geniuses are a bit crazy and narcissistic. That is why Pasha and Dean are, and moreso than their partners who while great skaters are not true geniuses and stars in the same way. That is also why Scott Moir and Patrick Chan are both a bit of an ass. Anyone remember John Curry and Toller Cranston, now they take the cake, lol! The rest arent since while they might be great, they still arent true genuises.
  27. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Yes, we should distinguish between subjective and objective. However when the crowd is roaring in the background as they were after the 1997 worlds OD is plain stupid to shout out "they never touched the audience" so you can be heard about the roars in the back.

    There can be no question Tracy Wilson was heavily biased to G&P. She never once just said flat out they are the best team. Not even in 1995 and 1996 when there was literally no team to even challenge them, she still tried to say teams like Rahkammo & Kokko and a still developing Krylova & Ovsiannikov were as good or better.
  28. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    Have you got any links to her commentaries from 1995 and 1996 World or European Championships? I was trying to find any on YT, but in vain. There some clips with commentaries of Dick Button or Sandra Bezic. Did Wilson even commentate those events? I would really like to hear her comments.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  29. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Although she hasn't managed to win Olympic Gold (yet) to me Aliona Savchenko is a similar character to Pasha Grishuk. She is selfish and narcissistic and she looks like she would sell her own mother down the river to win an OGM. Victory at all costs! Robin just came along for the ride. I admire fanatics like them. Figure skating would be dull without such stand out characters.
  30. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    Pasha is a horrible women and a talentless ice dancer who won all her medals through politics. Tracy Wilson was just speaking the truth and y'all should accept that. Her Olympic gold was a farce. She robbed Maya of her husband, then her olympic gold. She should be put in jail for treason.
  31. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    I can actually see at least some of that in Aliona.

    My fevered imagination just pictured Christopher Dean trying to skate with Pasha. There would be a tornado on the ice... :eek:
  32. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Haha! I would love to be there for their training sessions :lol: There would be blood on the ice.
  33. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

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    It came to my mind, too.
    I wonder who of them would be the survivor...?
  34. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    Pasha is a deluded quack who thought she was Marilyn Monroe and Madonna. Marilyn Monroe is a star, one of a kind, Pasha could never be her as much as she dreams to be. Madonna would be furious at this poser who was trying to imitate her. Madonna is a classy women who even screwed a bull once. Pasha could never be here.
  35. CynicElle

    CynicElle Well-Known Member

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    Dude, what? :lol:
  36. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Of course Pasha is the quack... :rolleyes:
  37. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think ripingroar37 is referring to the time where Madonna dated Dennis Rodman who was a Chicago Bulls basketball player.
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  38. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    God, I hope so...
  39. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Good point, but we still don't know for sure yet if her comments were accurate.

    Certainly. I'm just talking about contests that many would consider "close." I definitely wouldn't want to see outrageous judging just so that an athlete/team wouldn't get a second OGM.

    I agree that G&P were better technically, but definitely not artistically. In fact, I think G&P were the Mariah Careys of the dance world--a lot of technical ability, but not much else. ;) I love this description of Mariah Carey that a British reviewer once gave, and I think it fits G&P as well:

    [Carey] has a fine technical voice but the emotional resonance of a car park. :lol:

    So they slacked off??? Why was that?
  40. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    I love it :lol:

    I only heard that they couldn't stand each other, so spent as much time as they thought it was necessary minimum, not more. But I don't know if is true, maybe just some gossips.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014