Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Xela M, Mar 31, 2014.
DID THAT HAPPEN!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!!!!!
I also could never understand what women saw in Zhulin. He always looked ugly to me, whereas Platov was to die for! However, Zhulin seemed to make women fall over themselves for him whereas Platov got rejections left right and centre. Maybe Platov had less sex appeal in person and Zhulin had all the bad boy charms?
I cant figure it out. Maybe Zhulin has a bigger package. Maybe he is richer. Who knows.
I don't think Zhulin was rich back in 1992
I am just searching for answers. I am a women and wouldnt touch him with a ten foot pole unless he was incredibly rich so I am trying to guess what these women see.
I always thought Nancy had to be secretly thanking Tonya everyday. Tonya made her rich and famous. No one would have remembered Nancy 20 years on
Well she was already rich. She got a bunch of endorsements in 92 and 93. She got more than Kristi who always kicked her ass in competition, and was the Olympic gold to Nancy's bronze, due to racism in the U.S at the time. So she didnt need Tonya for that, although she did get even richer. She was always overhyped both on and off the ice. I love Tonya and wish she never clubbed Nancy to make her the star she is, that she never deserved to be. Too bad a real talent like Tonya is now out of the sport, and thrash like Nancy almost becomes an OGM and a hero.
Can I just say I love your posts in this thread
Thanks, I love your posts too. Whenever I am on this board even when I dont post, I notice some of your posts. I love how you just way what you want, and dont give a darn what others might think of it. Just calling it like it is.
Weren't there 3 separations? So, wouldn't that be at least 0.3 off? I find it hard to believe that their dance was still worth more than the other dances after such a deduction.
Yes, it is somewhat different, because there was not a prescribed deduction for that.
True, but the judges still had rules to follow. So, in the SP, would it have been okay for the judges to gloss over required elements and/or mandatory deductions?
Well, the referee was to blame as well. But if G&P had 3 separations that needed to be penalized, then based on their actual scores, it seems unlikely that the judges in general took all the deductions.
If the points were entirely meaningless, then why were there any prescribed deductions at all? There were required deductions for mistakes in the SP and for falls in the LP as well.
Yes, but it needs to be reasoned out numerically, not just, "I think G&P are that much superior." Otherwise, it's slipshod judging.
Make that 6.2.
Wow I always thought I was the only one who liked Tonya much more than Nancy. It's so sad she turned out to be so stupid
Good point. That's kind of like marrying someone you can't stand just because they're a mega-millionaire. I mean, in the long run (assuming a pre-nup ), is it really worth it? I don't think so. Better to have your sanity, tranquillity, and dignity IMO.
I got to shake Chris's hand a long time ago after a Stars on Ice show, he seemed very nice to me at that time.
I dunno, the 28 second mark at this video http://youtu.be/9oozUaizleQ?t=28s makes it look like she was complaining to Mickey about the horror of the corniness that she had to endure.
I always found her comments about Oksana during the medal ceremony to be pretty hilarious , as well as her comment about lacking motivation during pro-competitions since everyone made the same money.
The Disney escapade always annoyed me; however, because she was being paid millions just to smile, wave and wear a medal. If she felt that strongly in spite of the price tag, she should have said no.
Funnily enough, I think quite a number of people prefered Tonya's skating to Nancy's. I certainly did, although I can't say I was really a fan of either one.
To quickly get back to the Zhulin vs Platov debate... the one thing about Zhulin was that even though he didn't look very strong and Maya was nearly as tall as him, I don't think they ever had trouble with lifts. Maya said that she had never been injured before she paired up with Platov and he dropped her or let go of her during a spin, so she hit the boards and had to have shoulder surgery. Maybe Zhulin had more stamina
Driving 4 hours everyday to whore around between practices for the Olympics would have taken its toll on a lesser man, but not Zhulin
But apparently she'd had a toenail removed by a doctor the night before. Why did she wait so long to get that taken care of, though, I wonder?
Notoriety? That would be Tonya. Notorious rarely has a favorable connotation. Anyway, Nancy did win Piruetten, and if she'd skated really well at '94 Nationals, that could have been a boost for her as well.
Yes, it probably did negatively affect a lot of the skating, sad to say.
Hopefully this will answer your question:
Michael Rosenberg has some interesting observations about Tonya's appeal:
“If you had a dinner and had 12 skaters sitting around the table, at the end of the night, you would say Tonya was the most interesting, the most fun to talk to,” he says. “She’s smart. Street smart. Funny. Unpolished, but funny. Truthful. And a spectacular athlete."
In fact, he still believes she's innocent.
People who inflict emotional abuse are usually pretty selective about the ones they dish it out to. They're a lot like these critters:
Another thing to keep in mind is that even "regular" people are often nicer to complete strangers than to those they have to be around every day, who they may feel (rightly or wrongly) get on their nerves at times. The moral of the story: If you meet a public figure, don't read too much into a one-time pleasant encounter.
I think Laura Branigan does a very good job in this cover. I still prefer the original version.
No, people pushing that argument are just making stuff up becasue they wanted T&D to win. There was really only one separation considered controversial in that it lasted about 12 seconds rather than the 10 seconds allowed. That one should have been called for a deduction. The ISU weren't calling for deductions for brief separations on anyone so there was no reason to call any other penalty here either.
But still, these deductions were not subtracted from the mark a judge put up, the deduction was supposed to be incorporated by the judge when deciding on their marks. It was not uncommon for judges to take deductions in their own minds even if not called by the referee, so any number of them could have seen it and taken a mental ding off their mark for G&P. Or, as I suspect, they saw how much more difficult that dance was than anybody else's and decided that was enough to overcome a choreographic no-no, and that the tech mark should still be higher than anyone else's.
Culturally I live under a rock - thanks you
I believe 5 seconds, not 10 were allowed.
Well even that one deduction might have kept them at silver over Torvill & Dean but it for sure would have lost them gold to Usova & Zhulin, so based on that U&Z atleast were robbed.
It has been a lot of years now, I found a video and I think it must have been 5 as this one was more like 7 or 8. Still, it had been about the same at Europeans and it was not called there either, so it would have been kind of hard to allow it all year then ding them for it here. (And yes, one of the two moves T&D were dinged on was also in the Euros FD, but it was done very differently at Europeans. She was much closer to him it didn't look so much like a throw jump there.)
When the ISU introduced the no-touch steps element I could not help but think back to this event and laugh.
Did you watch skating under 6.0 because clearly you do not understand the concept of scoring in an ordinal system. Has any judge from that event ever been quoted as saying their ordinal for G&P would have been lower had they realized there should have been a .1 deduction? (maybe so, but I don't remember it.) I think the judges put them where they did based on what the teams did on the ice and would have put them in the same places even if the referee called for the deduction. The mandatory deduction would likely only have made a difference if a judge otherwise thought the programs were pretty much a coin toss and didn't have any better reason for placing one over the other. Otherwise, that better reason would have offset the -.1. What ever the absolute points, they would have produced the same ordinals because they would have adjusted their numbers accordingly.
Usova & Zhulin probably should have won the 94 gold but they were screwed over by the judges and bad luck their whole career so nothing new there. I would have given Rakammo & Kokko the bronze over Torvill & Dean had they not fallen but not sure the judges would have ever done this.
Kerrigan I would have had 4th. She had no artistry at all, and no exceptional jumps either. Bonaly atleast landed 2 hard triple-triples and more triples (6 to 5) than Kerrigan, even with the huge mistakes. Sato should have beat Kerrigan so badly in the long to make up for 7th to 1st in the short. Chen and Baiul beat Kerrigan overall easily.
I would have given gold to Miskutienok & Dmitriev. Gordeeva & Grinkov are the better team but had mistakes. Shishkova & Naumov deserved the bronze. I might have even placed them 2nd in the long program over G&G due to much superior technical difficult/merit that night, although behind artistically.
Stojko deserved the mens gold. It doesnt matter if you dont like his artistry. Urmanov had awful spins, awful footwork, poor choreography, and did less difficult jumps and not all clean either.
I wouldnt have even sent Kerrigan to the Games either. I would have sent Tonya Harding and Michelle Kwan since they were the first 2 finishers at Nationals, and Kerrigan had not medaled at the previous years worlds and customarily only medal winners of the previous years worlds were considered for a bye.
^ so.... Once Harding skated like crap, Kerrigan just barely lost gold by a fraction of a point, and Kwan a month later, with 5 of the top 10 finishers at olys missing, only managed 8th, did you rethink your assessment?
Naw, cant stand Kerrigan, her skating, or the nauseating hype around her that continues to this day so wouldnt have missed her. I am not American and so dont even really care if Americans do well or not unless I like them. I guess if I were and a member of the USFSA I guess I grudingly would have beaten Nancy Kerrigan on the teams due to my job being dependent on the U.S winning medals, but usually the precedent then was to only put medal winners from the previous years worlds. Sometimes even medal winners get bumped- Bobek in 96. So Kerrigan they made a special case for, probably in part due to the gruesome way she missed nationals rather than just the usual injury.
Anyway had Nancy not been at the Games Tonya may have done alot better and medaled, so it is not certain the U.S would fare much worse with Harding and Kwan. I know Kwan wasnt a medal contender that year. Harding was treated like thrash the whole Games though because Kerrigan was there, and Nancy was classless through the whole thing in her usual manner. Tonya even speaks about it very angrily in the recent documentary about her.
Since the criminal nature of the attack causing Kerrigan to miss Nationals was unprecedented, they probably figured there were no useful precedents regarding byes. Also, when the previous byes were given, the ISU rule for spots were different. There was a "named skater" rule that said the extra spot won by a podium finish could only be used by that skater. If the country did not send that skater, they could not name anyone else to that place.
At the time, I don't remember anyone seriously arguing Kerrigan should not get a spot on the team if she demonstrated her readiness to compete in time. There was considerable sentiment the USFS should stand up to Harding's legal threats and give the second spot to Kwan, though. Thinking back, I have always wondered if Kwan would have been less tight and won in Nagano if she had had the experience of skating in Lillehammer.
I think WDing Harding from the team would have been wrong since she clearly earned her spot at Nationals and there was no legal evidence she was involved in the Kerrigan clubbing. She did admit to learning about the attack after coming home from Nationals and not reporting it, but I am not sure if that would fall under criminal conduct or not. She claims her life was threatened at that point if she spoke and it is why she didnt, even though she badly wanted to come forward with the news on her own. Poor Tonya.
Egads, even I wouldn't go that far. I may be less than complimentary towards Kerrigan, but Tonya made her bed and she had to lie in it. She chose to surround herself with poor influences, had a shoddy work ethic, lost favor with the USFSA, and at the end of the story her people wound up kiboshing a skater that she should have been able to beat on sheer talent alone.
Well before the team left to Lillehammer, Harding admitted to lying to the USFS, lying to the police, and lying to the media about her involvement in the coverup. To me, the honor of being an Olympic team member should carry with it certain expectations of character and behavior, and the misdeed to which she had already admitted were enough to deny her that place. It should not have needed a criminal conviction or even criminal charges.
Tonya was treated like trash because she acted like trash.
I would have placed Kerrigan 22nd in the free skate behind Lily Lee.
(Just thought I'd add to the hyperbole in this thread)
OK, this is what Tracy Wilson had to say:
"Separations are very clear. You're only allowed to separate 5 times, and for a maximum of 5 seconds."
So, was Tracy Wilson wrong or what? Did the rulebook say 5 seconds or 10 seconds??? And did any of the other couples separate for more than 5 seconds? Apparently G&P separated for more than 5 seconds three times.
If there was only one deduction, and merely for 0.1, then I can completely understand what you're saying. The question is what the actual deduction should have been. Could someone please provide us with a quote from the rulebook--or something similar?
Personally, I don't care that much about who won. I just want to know what was fair. I liked/disliked various things about the top 3 teams.
I had never heard the original before, so I checked it out. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it seemed kind of bland to me--Tozzi is not that gifted a singer IMO. Branigan may be melodramatic at times, but at least she gives her version oomph.
Speaking of music, maybe this should have been the music for U&Z's FD:
You're welcome. Enjoy the sunshine.
That makes all the difference. Hopefully someone can confirm this for sure.
If it was 5 seconds, did G&P actually separate 3 times for that long?
That's basically irrelevant. It's either against the rules or not. If the limit was 5 seconds, and G&P broke the rule 3 times, then that's 0.3 off.
Let's also keep in mind that the winner of a contest isn't necessarily the athlete/team who was the most athletic and/or deserving. Sometimes it's just the one who was the smartest. For instance, let's say we have two football teams: A and B. Team A has far more talent, pushes Team B all over the field, and leads in almost all the stats. But Team B manages to win. Why? Because Team A did some dumb things and racked up some stupid penalties. Does that mean Team B was the better team overall? Of course not. It just means they found a way to win by playing it smart, while Team A self-destructed.
If the rules are clearly spelled out in the rulebook, but you choose to ignore them, then that's just plain stupid. Winning is often about strategy, and if G&P deserved a 0.3 deduction, then I can't see any way they deserved to win. And they had no one to blame but themselves.
Illegalities seem to be a major issue with many of Linichuk and Karponosov's students. G&P had illegal separations and an illegal lift in their 1993 FD. They had another illegal separation in their 96 FD. I think Krylova & Ovsiannikov had an illegal separation in their 95 FD. Lobacheva & Averbukh had 2 illegal moves in their 2002 FD (those jumps Ilia did at the beginning of their programs). And Denkova & Staviski had 2 prolonged lifts in their 2006 FD. L&K are either very clueless or they didn't care and broke the rules anyways.
Separate names with a comma.