1994 Olympics in Lillehammer - Controversial Results across the Board!

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Xela M, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    ITA. Oksana B. was just a flat out great dancer. No other ladies single skater - and almost none of the other ladies either - could move like she could. Her program to The Feeling Begins was the best out of all of them that I have seen - better than Pasha and Evgeny in terms of musicality IMO. But her LP in Lillehammer was not a great performance. When I rewatched the LPs recently, I would have given the LP to Chen Lu.
     
  2. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I would agree with that statement.

    I enjoyed Mishkutionok & Dmitriev more, but I see why Gordeeva & Grinkov had better technique and deserved to win.

    I enjoyed Baiul more, but I think Kerrigan had better technique and also more difficult technical content in the freeskate and should have won.

    For the men, I think the mixed ordinals among the top four (really five) freeskates were appropriate and would have been satisfied with any of Urmanov, Stojko, Petrenko, or Browning winning the free. Petrenko and Browning were too far behind to medal anyway. I don't think anyone was robbed.

    For dance, again, I would have been satisfied with those three medalists in any order. I was in the arena for the OD and the FD, and I think the correct teams won each of those segments. But how the factored placements come out including Usova/Zhulin in the mix as well, and factoring in the CDs, the medals could have been any order.
     
  3. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ^you guys are so nice! I'm such a pessimist, whenever I read outrageously false claims like no one here praises oksana's artistry, followed by lots of response posts gushing over her, turning the thread into a Baiul lovefest, I always think "oh, well played!" :p
     
  4. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I have to admit that I thought this every time they performed. I can't think of a more physically unattractive pairs team ever. :slinkaway: It astonishes me that some people have listed Artur as handsome. :eek:
     
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  5. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Come on... Artur was hot! He wasn't handsome as such, but that passion on the ice, the power and aggression with which he skated made him quite sexy. He was very masculine, strong and wild.

    http://www.corbisimages.com/images/...e=67&uid=7bba0208-dafc-4b37-a370-fcc1127219d3

    http://skating.bplaced.net/Persons/Mishkutenok-Dmitriev_Ol_94_01.jpg

    http://0.tqn.com/d/figureskating/1/0/r/l/-/-/MISHKUTENOKDMITRIEV.jpg

    http://www.corbisimages.com/images/...e=67&uid=6afc1374-21aa-4d5c-ac13-cc262de4d409

    http://old.bpsd.org/ims/Tech_Ed/8th...eeks/PD5/lucchitti.hannah/images/moves 10.jpg

    It's a matter of taste, but Artur Dmitriev is very much my type of guy :eek:
     
  6. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    No, just no. Unless this is an April's Fools prank? If so, well played. ;)
     
  7. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Haha! No, I really do find (young) Artur Dmitriev Sr extremely hot. His son inherited many of his features, but none of his sex appeal.
     
  8. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think Artur Dmitriev was a great looking man, but he didn't age well (same thing with Oleg Ovsyannikov). I do think from the stories I heard about him and Moskvina, it sounds like she coddled him compared to the way Natalia was treated. Who knows the real story though.
     
  9. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Just as a bit of gossip... I remember reading that Natalia's "problems" with Artur and their coach all stemmed from the fact that she was madly in love with him, but he didn't feel the same way and got another girl (his future wife) pregnant after the 1992 Olympics. Apparently they had to hide this fact from Natalia for as long as possible so as not to distract her from competing. She fell into a deep depression in the run up to the 1994 Olympics. I vaguely remember an interview with both of them when she broke down in front of the camera because Artur mentioned he might skate with another partner.

    So... I guess I'm not the only one who found Artur hot :p

    Oh, and at some point Natalia also dated Alexei Urmanov! She had good taste.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  10. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    It seems very much a matter of taste when it comes to Artur. I recall Peggy Fleming gushing over his gentle strength. She seemed quite smitten with his manliness. I am very glad, though, you agree about Oksana K. She had a face that stood out like no other in the group numbers. :scream::scream:
     
  11. kwanlysacek

    kwanlysacek Member

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    Kerrigan for me is truly the definition of generic and average. That she was even a contender for the OGM shows how weak the field was that particular year. Had she hung around and competed against Kwan, Chen, Lipinski, and even Slutskaya and Butyrskaya in the 96-98 period she would have looked like a joke by comparision. 94 and 95 worlds she would have been a gold contender had she stayed, but after she would have been barely fighting for bronze, and before that when Ito, Yamaguchi, Harding, and Trenary were all still around, it was the same thing as her future would have been, just fighting for bronze both nationally and internationally. So that shows her stint as a gold contender was only due a weak transition period. The fact she wasnt even fighting for gold when people like Yamaguchi and Ito were around, and wouldnt have been had she competed against Kwan, Lipinski, Chen, and Slutskaya in later years, and only when those people werent around shows she just isnt that good and was good timing for her to even be a gold contender.

    She doesnt have great jumps, good but not great, no second triple lutz, the easiest triple-triple combo in the book which even Michelle Kwan who was criticized for not doing difficult combinations mastered, but only hyped as impressive due to competing vs the combo jumping defective Biaul. And good only when landed, she was very inconsistent in her jumps. Her spins sucked, and her footwork did too. Her basic skating was good, but not great, and while in 91-92 she was an elegant skater by 94 she as more stiff and less artistic, and the Scotvolds generally gave her pretty forgettable programs.

    Baiul is just a much more special skater, and it is not like she skated bad in the Olympic long program. It is like she had much less content either, she landed all 5 different triples which Kerrigan did not, so with the easiest triple-triple and one two footed triple by Baiul that gives Nancy a small technical content edge at best. Kerrigan's big mistake which cost her gold was doubling the triple flip. Baiul's only mistake was two footing the triple flip slightly, which is the bigger mistake though, a slightly two footed triple flip is way better than just doing a double flip. Baiul gets the technical quality edge with higher jumps, better spins, more spirals even if Nancy's one spiral is excellent, and better footwork. That is probably why some of the judges gave her a higher technical mark. I find Nancy getting overall as high or higher artistic marks than Baiul who might be the most artistic skater ever, with that cheesy Neil Diamonds number and much less artistry than she used to have back in 91-92 even more questionable than a few judges giving Baiul a higher technical mark, but nobody said anything about that. So I agree with the judge giving Baiul the nod, just as she is the kind of skater you want to see as an Olympic Champion more. Chen and Sato also should have beaten Kerrigan in the LP, if not perhaps overall.
     
  12. michaelfsfan

    michaelfsfan Princess Glee (TM)

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    It used to make me laugh when commentators described Kerrigan as "artistic" - she was stiff as a piece of cardboard and gawky as a newborn pony. :scream:

    IIRC one of the magazines (either TIME or Newsweek) accurately described her choreography as "holier than thou". :EVILLE:

    I think she was made out to be the next Ice Princess of US Womens Figure Skating after Yamaguchi retired because they couldn't find another suitable candidate during the transition period and tried to make people believe that by getting Vera Wang to design her costumes, she would automatically be transformed into this great "arteeste", when most of her choreography consisted of shoving her hand straight into the air or shuffling them around when she was trying to dance on the ice. :lol:

    I would have placed Lu Chen first in the LP - her program was light years more interesting and innovative, both musically and choreographically than Baiul's mawkish Broadway twerkfest and Kerrigan's Puritannical snoozefest. :p
     
  13. kwanlysacek

    kwanlysacek Member

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    My LP results would have been:

    1. Sato
    2. Chen
    3. Baiul
    4. Kerrigan

    So my overall medals would have ended up: 1. Chen, 2. Baiul, 3. Sato

    I agree about Nancy. It is a sad state when the U.S ladies were so weak in artistry that she was the best they could come up with to potray as artistic at that point. When Trenary and Yamaguchi were around, nobody ever thought she was some super artistic skater. Compared to Harding, Kwaitkowski, Ervin, 14 year old Kwan, and young back pumping Bobek I guess she was, but that isnt saying much.

    She definitely lucked out she had her 91-92 success before Chen, Sato, Baiul, and others emerged so had a rep advantage over them. Without that she would never gotten to the point of being a gold contender, probably not even in the weak 93-95 transition period.
     
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although I do think you have an interesting interpretation of the technical aspects of Baiul's performance, I will say that Baiul's Lutz was way better than Kerrigan's (who I thought had a great Lutz but was only good in Lillehammar). Baiul also had speed and I agree she was a special type of skater and really sold that routine (at the end, she acted like she did a 7 triple performance with a 3/3). That said, I just think the one less triple, the lack of any triple combination or sequence, and no real change-of-foot spin is too much for me to overtake Kerrigan's generic skating. Other than a short-lived flying sit spin and that back scratch spin that lasted like 3 seconds, Baiul only did camel spins. Kerrigan wasn't a great spinner (and she wobbled on the opening camel of her combo change-of-foot spin), but at least she showed variety and did spins on both feet.

    I also agree with your LP standings, but I'd flip Kerrigan and Baiul. So I'd have it:

    1. Sato
    2. Chen
    3. Kerrigan
    4. Baiul

    With the SP scores, it'd be:

    1. Nancy Kerrigan (0.5 + 3.0) = 3.5
    2. Lu Chen (2.0 + 2.0) = 4.0
    3. Yuka Sato (3.5 + 1.0) = 4.5
    4. Oksana Baiul (1.0 + 4.0) = 5.0
     
  15. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Oleg was attractive but Artur? Noooooooo. All my years of skating fandom, I thought everyone agreed he was unattractive but this thread is really proving me wrong. :eek::eek: Different tastes and all, I guess.:eek:
     
  16. kwanlysacek

    kwanlysacek Member

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    She didnt really have "one less triple" though. Baiul would have been given most credit for her slightly two footed triple flip. Basically the only technical difference in jumps done is a slightly two footed triple flip for Baiul vs no triple flip for Nancy (big edge Baiul), a 2nd clean triple toe for Nancy (moderate edge for Nancy), and Nancy combining her two triple toes to make the easiest triple-triple in the book (moderate edge for Nancy), so at most barely any difference. Baiul had an extra double axel too. As the referee of the event explained scoring of technical merit is not just jump content but the quality of jumps, and the content and execution of spins, footwork, and spirals. Nancy meanwhile never deserved 6 5.9s for artistry for that cheesetastic program skating before Baiul even skated, but nobody even talks about that and passes by at it as if it were completely deserved somehow.
     
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I know you keep saying the triple toe/triple toe is the easiest triple/triple, but it's still a whole lot harder than a triple/double and it's especially much harder than having no triple combination. I mean Adelina Sotnikova was competitive with Yu Na Kim and Carolina Kostner (who did a 3 Lutz/3 Toe and a 3 Flip/ 3 Toe respectfully) in the SP with her 3 Toe/ 3 Toe.

    Two foots may get some consideration, but there's no way they will be considered close to being clean (especially under 6.0 where jumps weren't quantified and therefore a two-footed jump would not be given a hard explicit score). As for the ref's post-hoc justification of Baiul's performance, with spins and skating moves in-between the jumps being considered, I think it gives a stronger argument for Nancy who had two transitions going into two of her jumps and did her Triple Lutz near the end of her program. I already made my spins arguments above.

    I think people don't talk about the artistic impression score as much because it's so subjective (especially back then where it seemed the rules became stricter with the well-balanced program and MITF after these Olympics) and it's harder to argue concretely. Technical merit is something that is much more tangible to argue. I do agree that there's no way Nancy deserved a 5.9 in that mark, but I don't know if we had any artistic masterpieces that deserved anything above a 5.7-5.8 on that mark with that group of LPs in my very subjective opinion. Witt probably comes the closest, but her technical deficiency really showed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  18. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    But it is the easiest 3/3. Just like the 4t is the easiest quad. See a 2x/2t with a shaky landing combo is way better that a 3t/3t and a 3s/2t, just like any guy who lands 2 double axels in a program should win over a guy doing a quad. Don't you get it?
     
  19. SochiDid

    SochiDid Banned Member

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    'Twas a great Olympics, probably the best Olympics for figure skating in terms of drama and excitement and exposure (i.e., notoriety) and overall coverage (props to CBS for building up the rooting interests and narratives with all their great fluff pieces during those Olympics); for my own sentimental reasons: I actually remember it being cold, and the family was all gathered by the big ****in' electric heater in the living room, waiting for Kerrigan to skate the free skate.
     
  20. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    I don't understand how anyone could argue Baiul over Kerrigan on technical merit. A half assed 2A-2T combo somehow beats a 3T-3T? Wut.
     
  21. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I thought those deductions were absolutely correct. I am sure other competitors could also have come up with interesting stuff if they had known overhead lifts and throw jumps would be allowed in ice dance.

    If the ISU is going to restrict what dancers can do, then they need to enforce those limits. Watching in real time even I thought "that can't be legal" especially the eye-popping throw loop move. I, for one, would have been pretty annoyed if they had let them get away with it.

    BTW "I am OK with it" is not the same thing as I was OK with it at the time nor as I agree with it.

    I am OK with Grishuk and Platov winning in 94. I was not OK with it at the time, as I thought U/Z should have won. Removed from the passion of the moment, however, and having re-watched the programs dispassionately, I can see the judges' thinking. Still, I am not sure I would go so far as to say they were right. I'm just not real sure they were wrong anymore.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It was too bad U&Z chose the most important year of their career to have their worst FD ever. Had they used any of their 90-93 FDs I am sure they would have won the gold, being as they were so close anyway.
     
  23. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    I´m fine with the results in Lillehammer:

    1. Urmanov was the right winner, Stojko´s skating looked too awful.
    2. Baiul was the reigning WC and I agreed with her win.
    3. I hoped that Thorvill & Dean would win, but understood they unfortunately had an illegal move.
    4. G&G were awesome and the feeling & expression they showed in their programmes was unbeatable.
     
  24. Rex

    Rex Well-Known Member

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    It was serious home perm hair, complete with pinwheel bangs. Ogilvie voids, for real. Team Nancy.
     
  25. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I am just curious why being the reigning WC is a justification for her win?
     
  26. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    U&Z should have won. They had payed their dues, it was their turn, and G&P's free dance was an awful hot mess anyway.
     
  27. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    G&P's free dance was HOT and FAST! T & D were slow and U & Z's free dance was just one big WTF moment. It was a revolution of the fast and furious skating that would take over ice dance. G & P's 1994 free dance was skated with so much attack, aggression, confidence and youthful exuberance that it made everyone else look old and stale.

    That's the kind of skating I expected from V & M in Sochi - I expected to see the drive to WIN, but I was rather disappointed.
     
  28. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I kinda agree, but please. You can't get more old and stale than a cheesy 50s ROCKnROLL number. It was like 10 years out of date, only the judges are 20 years out of date in their tastes! I loved T&D's Fred&Ginger homage.
     
  29. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    None of these are legitimate reasons for their win and point to examples of why people don't consider figure skating a real sport.
     
  30. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I remember hearing the same things, but I think your timing is off. Artur's GF was already pregnant with Artur jr by the time of the 92 Olympcs. As you said, they apparently tried to keep the existance of this relationship secret from Natalia until after the season ended. The unhappiness issues arose after that. It was pretty obvious in the pro events they did in the fall of 1992 that things were no longer working for them. By the time they started training for the 1994 Olympics, I think things had been pretty much resolved.