1994 Olympics in Lillehammer - Controversial Results across the Board!

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Xela M, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    As I have already written in another post, I don't know the Boitano's role in reinstating the skaters. I don't care that much about it. But if the ISU allowed pros in amateur competitions, they had right to compete and be fairly judged. And what some fans or fellow skaters thought about it, shouldn't matter.
     
  2. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    you are entitled your opinion. My opinion is Boitano and T&D, and to a lesser degree Witt had right to a rather unwelcome environment, and scores on the less than generous side by the judges (at the very least made to absolutely earn anything they got, absolutely no reputation or legacy bonus skaters like them would normally get), as they shouldnt have been there in the first place. In the end that is what they all got. Petrenko, M&D, and G&G (although to be consistent I guess you could raise an issue with G&G too) I felt fine with their comebacks as it felt like they had never really left amateur competition anyway, especialy M&D and Petrenko, and was happy to see them all warmly received by their peers and the judges alike.

    T&D, Boitano, and Witt never even planned to go to worlds which says it all. They werent back for some mythical love of skating, they just expected the red carpet to be rolled out for them and given gold medals if they simply stood up because of who they were, pad their careers and legacy and steal a medal from someone whose time was then, and then abruptly leave again. G&G, Petrenko, and M&D atleast all planned to go to worlds initally. M&D werent put on the Russian team for worlds, and it was too late to add them when G&G WD last minute.
     
  3. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    Why did you feel right with G/G and not right with Witt's comback? As you've written in another post, the pros were taking away things from younger skaters. So it was rather G/G that took something from the others (by winnig gold), not Katarina Witt.
     
  4. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Member

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    That's how I felt about it exactly! I don't need to go on now! lol!
     
  5. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    T& D were planning to go the Worlds!!! It was after the Olympics FD results that they changed their decision. Anyway according to you they stole medal from somebody else, but G/G didn't steal the medal. Strange ...
     
  6. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    G&G basically should have still been competing by 94. They took a break due to burn out, but fall 1990 was when they left and I think by summer 1990 there was already strong talk there was going to be reinstated pros at either the 92 or 94 Games. So they didnt 100% for sure leave thinking they would never return like T&D, Boitano, and Witt all did. They were younger than most of the teams in the top 10 so it just feels strange to think of them as a reinstated team, epecialy when in summer 1990 everyone expected to see G&G at both the 92 and 94 Games anyway.

    However some of their competitors obviously had problems with them. I already mentioned Vadim Naumov speaking rudely to Grinkov for coming back after the 94 Games. Yet Shishkova & Naumov and others were more supportive of M&D who had only been gone 1 year. So that too goes along with all I have said basically.

    So T&D skipped worlds out of temper tantrum the red carpet wasnt rolled out for them to win easily if they just stayed on their feet. My bad, I didnt know that. Fine thanks for the new info, but that doesnt exactly raise my opinion of their comeback, and I am glad the long retired group of pros all in general didnt have a sterling comeback. They won Europeans and were tied for the lead at the Olympics going into the FD, so they should be honored at that point they were still considered as huge contenders for the gold medal at every major event with 1 or 2 other contending teams, not sulking that they werent given 20 6.0s and guaranteed the gold just for showing up like the good old days.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  7. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    Usova & Zhulin also pulled out of the world dance event (in their case I knew they were planning on going) as a temper tantrum for losing to G&P at both Europeans and world. Boo hoo. In their case atleast I have some sympathy (unlike T&D where I cant find a drop even I had thought they deserved the Lillehammer gold) as it was just another chapter in their tough luck type career, but I never am impressed with sore losers and quitters. I bet they especialy felt stupid in the end as they watched G&P fell at worlds, and nearly lose gold to Moniotte & Lavanchy. Had they gone and skated cleanly they would have for certain won their 2nd world title, something huge for their career, and a soother to their crushing Lillehammer loss. Oh well that is what you get for being a sore loser I guess.

    Maya didnt even attend the medalists press conference at the Games and wasnt fined according to the official release since it was said given the understandable dissapointment she should be given some leighway. What a joke, should have been a fine. Not acceptable.
     
  8. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    Your negative emotions are pouring out of you. Maybe you should rather tell us what you think about the programmes, presented in Lillehammer. If you read the thread from the beginning, you will notice that people have different views on them and there are different opinions on the order of places in each discipline.
     
  9. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie Member

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    I understand that someone who had berely taken any break (coming back after two years is like coming back after an injury), is more accepted and liked by their fellow skaters and even competitors than someone who decides to make a comeback after 10 years, when many others have already come on the scene to compete with. Especially when someone's achievements are referred to as outstanding, the current competitors must see their comeback as a threat.

    A medal can't get stolen by anyone unless they tear it from the rightful medallists' neck. I find any discussion about G/P "stealing" the medal from T/D, T/D or Witt "stealing" the medal from someone else etc and so on absolutely hilarious and disgusting.
     
  10. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    ITA
     
  11. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    If we were to go by Witt's performances in 1985-1988 Europeans, that was definitely the case, since she always had at least 1 poor segment (out of 3) yet still won overall because the field was so weak.

    Her best performance that season was German Nationals where she pretty much landed all of her planned content in the LP to finish 2nd overall. I don't know if she was ever practicing more difficult content on a consistent basis.

    I think Andrade had been attempting 3 lutzes at least since 1998, but was only landing them (sometimes) nearing the end of her career in 2002.
     
  12. grassroots39

    grassroots39 Member

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    Did Witt land the triple loop cleanly at German Nationals. If so and still lost to young Tanja that would be a huge thumbs down, since Tanja herself couldnt do anything harder than a triple loop. She had a triple lutz, but she never cleanly landed it once that whole season, and no triple flip. She also had an immature style and not much artistry yet.
     
  13. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although I feel bad for the skaters would have gotten the last spot had it not been for the returning pros, I don't know if I have that much sympathy. They got sort of a benefit of only having to wait 2 years for the next Olympics as opposed to four. I think that was one reason the ISU was willing to let pros reinstate and create some interest in having another figure skating Olympics only two years after the previous one. I always thought it was more of a marketing ploy so the regular people can look forward to seeing some legends on Olympic ice. They didn't know the Harding situation was going to happen.

    Now, you can argue that those who missed out in 1994 had to wait another four years (1998) rather than two (1996), but that's just the way life works. There's a benefit of only having to wait two years and then there's a burden of having to compete against some older stars. IMO, if they didn't have the tech. advantage to compete against skaters who had been out of the game that long, then that's on them.

    Anyway, I have to laugh at the poster who said Kwan was the reason why poor Sasha and NNN, etc. couldn't develop. Please.
     
  14. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    The reinstatement of pros was an obvious PR move, but it certainly did the trick. The 1994 figure skating season was exciting like no other (for various reasons ;) ).

    Although I agree that some pros' comebacks appeared desperate, I disagree that they "stole" medals from anyone. It's competitive sport and the best win. It's not a charitable event. If you are not good enough to win against an ageing pensioner that's tough luck. G&G were still technically superior to everyone else (apart from M&D) so there's nothing unfair about inferior teams losing. That's just the way sport works. If Plushenko comes back at the age of 90 and lands more jumps than an 18-year-old then he would win.

    I don't think the pros in 1994 were treated unfairly by the judges. If they were still outstanding (i.e. G&G and M&D) or good (i.e. T&D) they medalled, but if they skated like crap - they didn't medal. It would have been unfair if it was otherwise.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  15. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    I agree with grassroots39 about sore losers though - they are my pet hate! I also find it funny that both U&Z and T&D could have easily won Gold at Worlds in 1994 with Platov falling.
     
  16. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot more passion here than logic. The decision to allow pros to reinstate happened more than a year before the Kerrigan whack, so there is no reason the think the ISU allowed the pro skaters in to take attention off the Harding-Kerrigan story. As the Olympics unfolded, I think pretty much everybody (not just the ISU) was glad there were other skating stories for the media to talk about, though.

    I admit to being puzzled how anyone can still hold such venom over something from 30 years ago that is fairly innocuous and entirely unimportant in the grand scheme of human existence. For the small number of people negatively affected, there were millions of people who got to see some great skating and the ISU and skating broadcasters all benefited.

    Boitano regretted not being able to compete in 92 and had lobbied hard for years to get the ISU to allow reinstatement. (I suspect, though, that the prospect of the two returning Russian pairs may have been what really sealed the deal for the ISU.) The returning pros were definitely good for skating and the ISU, as they were mostly bigger names and more popular draws than almost all the eligible skaters of the day. For me, the skating in the pairs event alone made that decision a winner.

    I also remember the excitement with which I watched Skate America in the fall of 93 to see Boitano & Petrenko compete again, and I think it was Pirouetten where Mishkutenok & Dmitriev debuted their new free skate.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2014
  17. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    No. She performed two triple toes and two triple salchows again; however they were all clean IIRC. The only time I ever saw her land the triple loop cleanly was in the Lillehammer warm-up for the final group. In the competition itself, she touched down both with her hand and her free foot.

    As for Szewczenko, I thought her much improved from the previous season.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  18. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

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    Both of them? Why not? And why did he think he'd have more fun the third time around? :)
     
  19. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

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    I can agree with that, but in your earlier post I felt the reasoning you gave was too general. The biggest question was--why such a big drop from earlier in the season?

    I think R&S were better than Punsalan & Swallow in many ways--and certainly more creative and interesting.

    It would be neat if anyone could provide some ordinals for R&S from those events. Their paso doble must have been really bad for them to come up with a whole new OD.

    Yes. I think they underestimated P&S too. I'm also curious why Wynne & Witherby defeated P&S easily at '93 Nationals, but then were hopelessly behind them in '94.

    Yes, they had a reputation for that, unfortunately.

    Exactly. :)
     
  20. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Member

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    Easy for us to say it only affected a small number of people; when it's not us personally! :rolleyes:
     
  21. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

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    Well, it seems likely that her placement in figures was inflated (as usual), so she probably didn't. ;)
     
  22. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

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    What about Linichuk in 2009? ;)

    Some folks think Belbin & Agosto were really no better than couples like Punsalan & Swallow, Lang & Tchernyshev, and Roca & Sur, but simply had better political connections. I'm not a dance expert, but that sounds plausible at least.
     
  23. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Neptune, you ask a valid question. Every single time Boitano uttered the same crap about not enjoying his Olympics experience, I would yell at the interviewer to ask a followup question and no one ever did. Ever. I'd love to know the answer to that one, too. It's not like he was under enormous pressure in 1984 so why couldn't he enjoy that one? We may never know because reporters never do their job.
     
  24. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
     
  25. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you should go into journalism, fenway2. :) Maybe this was just a line of his, and nothing more.
     
  26. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    I think Belbin & Agosto were better than all those teams. Punsalen & Swallow didnt start really reaching upper echelon level of dancing on the world stage until the final year or two of their career, and by then it was too late.

    Lang & Tchernyshev never put enough difficulty in their programs, far too much open skating and two footed skating. They had the talent to do it, or atleast seemed to, but they never actually did it. Their compulsories were way undermarked. I often thought their compulsories were the best in the world and would still place down in 10th place around. However the judges knew from experience their original and free dances they were not truly world class so they werent going to be stuck giving them a medal just due to great compulsories so marked them down even there to keep them where they would eventually belong.

    Roca & Sur were held back by poor compulsories, so never really had a chance in the amateur ranks. Their programs were also more pro style than amateur, so they were always better suited to pro skating. She also wasnt as strong a skater as he was, and it was very noticeable, but easier to camoflauge in pro routines.

    Belbin & Agosto were coached by Shpilband just as L&T and P&S had been for many years. So I dont see how they were more politically connected.

    Another factor though is B&A were lucky to peak in a very weak ice dance era in 2004-2006. Navka & Kostomarov were the dominant team for crying out loud, in most eras a team such as that wouldnt even be top 5. B&A couldnt even ever beat or seriously challenge them but were winning medals alongside a team like Grushina & Goncharov, a team who most eras wouldnt even be top 10. After 2006 their ranking slid, although still remained higher than it would have been due to their reputation gained in the weak mid 2000s. We saw in Vancouver when Davis & White and Virtue & Moir had really matured for the first time they didnt look so special anymore. They were a distant 4th, and would have been 5th without Isabelle's pregnancy. Even an injured and well below their best Domnina & Shabalin easily beat them. It is kind of pointless to just compare B&A to say P&S to why they did better. B&A didnt compete against P&S, they competed against a totally different group of teams. B&A would have never seen a world podium competing against Grischuk & Platov, Krylova & Ovsiannikov, Anissina & Peizerat, Bourne & Kraatz, a politcally propped up Fusar Poli & Margalio, Rahkammo & Kokko, Usova & Zhulin, Moniotte & Lavanchy, a politically propped up Lobacheva & Averbuhk like both P&S and L&T had to for many years.
     
  27. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Witt is quite as delusional as some here think her. I think her main goal was to make the oly team, make an impression by skating well there, and revive a stagnating pro career so that she'd still be invited to shows and not "replaced" by newer models. This she did archive, even if it didn't go as well as planned. I don't think we would have seen her at all those pro events like the senior chaperone had she not reinstated.

    I think the closest she came was her oly sp, where a clean strong sp got her in the final group over younger ladies with stronger tech who f-ed up. That was her feel good tv moment that made the public remember her. I'm sure she would have liked to skate a clean LP, but I doubt her goals were anything higher than a possible but unlikely bronze if it were a splat fest. I think her main set back was tanja s. If she expected to win anything, it was probably nats, and maybe a euro bronze. Both went to tanja iirc. Expecting both bonaly and Baiul to f-ed euros so she could win seems too unrealistic to be believable IMO.
     
  28. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Tanja was 5th at Europeans. 3rd and 4th place at Europeans went to the Russian ladies Olga Markova and Maria Butyrskaya, both who were unable to compete at the Games due to Maria's epic failure at the 93 worlds.
     
  29. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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  30. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Kwan had nothing to do with NNN's issues. They were all her own, and impossible to overcome it turns out.

    Sasha though might be different. Who knows how she was mentally affected being in the shadow of Kwan all those years. The pressure of having to skate totally clean to beat Kwan was probably also hard on her already fragile pysche and led to many of her mistakes, and led to her losing confidence in her own abilities and capacity to hold it together on the world level whether Kwan was her main competition or not. Her career might have been totally different without Kwan or it might have been more or less the same. The interesting thing is even if you remove Kwan from all the world and Olympic competition she was in, it does not lead to her as the gold medalist at a single one of them, so it would have to be whether there is a hypothetical difference to her mentality, momentum, and confidence in general without Kwan around.

    Since Sasha seemed like a nasty girl who treated her coaches and those around her poorly, tried to collide with people in warm ups, was lazy and unfocused, I was glad to see her not win a major title though. And enjoyed seeing Kwan regularly beat her at nationals, her being called a choker time and time after falling and losing nationals and worlds each year, and even journeywomen Shizuka swooping in to steal 2 big titles from her, and the ultimate insult to cap it off with Meissner.