1994 Olympics in Lillehammer - Controversial Results across the Board!

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Xela M, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. neptune

    neptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,952
    There are always exceptions. :)

    So why doesn't Janet Lynn fit this mold then? Geniuses can certainly let their talents go to their heads, but they don't absolutely have to. Besides, being crazy and narcissistic doesn't require any special talent. Anybody can do it. ;)
  2. neptune

    neptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,952
    Yeah, I think that reviewer deserved some sort of prize. :lol:

    OK, thanks. Definitely not lack of work ethic then. I wonder if they've ever regretted choosing that FD? I also wonder if Kerrigan has ever regretted choosing her program. If not, then that would seem to indicate that these folks have some serious blind spots that they've never overcome. ;)
  3. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    684
    I disagree. For me (and for many casual fans I know) G&P brought excitement back into ice dance. People tuned in just to watch them. Their "love-hate" chemistry was electrifying and they pushed ice dance to a new level. After they retired, I couldn't bring myself to watch ice dance for many years. Anissina & Peizerat and Navka & Kostomarov were so ordinary, boring and uneventful (and of course less gifted) in comparison to G&P. I still miss Pasha's persona now, although I think ice dance has a little bit more drama this season :D
  4. soxxy

    soxxy Guest

    I miss Pasha. Is she currently involved in the sport?
  5. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    684
    I think she just coaches children in California, although before Sochi she said she briefly worked with I&K and was raving about how talented they are. I would love to see Pasha as a choreographer for some of the top teams.
  6. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    87
    It was too bad K&O got hurt too. They were worthy rivals to G&P when they competed, and fully deserved their 4 year reign on top.
  7. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    684
    I agree about K&O. It's a shame they couldn't stay until 2002. They were a higher quality team than A&P.
  8. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    I personally disagree. A&P almost always skated much more ambitious programs with a lot more content (the one exception may have been 1999 but I'm not sold on K&O's terrible jungle FD that was skated almost entire hand to hand or side by side). Their issues in 1998-2001 was that their execution was sloppy and their unison was very suspect. But otherwise, they were excellent skaters.
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I actually thought A&P were a better team than K&O with less political favor. Maybe not so much when they were competing with each other, but by 99 I thought A&P had surpassed K&O.
  10. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Oh yes, I wasn't saying that you thought they should've placed first in the golden waltz and jive in 98. I'm just trying to personally refute why that shouldn't be the case for those who believe so.

    I also think K&O's FD should've placed about 4th. I personally had A&P in second and Punsulen and Swallow 3rd which surprises even me as I don't even like P&S. But that FD of theirs that season was excellent.

    Funnily enough, I had Punsulen & Swallow in 3rd for the golden waltz, 6th in the Argentine tango, 5th or 6th in the OD, and 3rd in the FD. Not sure where that would place them though overall.
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    Sorry I posted that in the wrong thread which is why I changed my message. I agree with all your placements for P&S. I thought their golden waltz was probably better than A&P's which looked a bit sloppy in some ways. Their Argentine Tango had a stumble but I didnt see all the teams, and they were one of the only teams to step on true outside edges on the crossrolls (K&O didnt even do it, dont remember if G&P did or not). Their OD had a stumble too but was otherwise good compared to many of the awful ODs that year. Their FD was one of the best that year given there were a number of train wrecks that year which had significantly less content than they had in that years FD.
  12. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    I actually thought A&P surpassed K&O in 98 as well!
  13. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Yeah, a lot of the ODs were terrible that year. I think overall, my placements might've been:

    Golden Waltz
    1. Grishuk & Platov
    2. Krylova & Ovsiannikov
    3. Punsulen & Swallow
    4. Anissina & Peizerat
    5. Lobacheva & Averbukh

    Argentine Tango
    1. Grishuk & Platov
    2. Krylova & Ovsiannikov
    3. Bourne & Kraatz
    4. Anissina & Peizerat
    5. Lobacheva & Averbukh

    OD
    1. Grishuk & Platov
    2. Krylova & Ovsiannikov
    3. Anissina & Peizerat
    4. Lobacheva & Averbukh
    5. Punsulen & Swallow

    FD
    1. Grishuk & Platov
    2. Anissina & Peizerat
    3. Punsulen & Swallow
    4. Krylova & Ovsiannikov
    5. not sure, perhaps Drobiazko & Vanagas as I could not stand the FD's of Fusar-Poli & Margaglio, Bourne & Kraatz, and Lobacheva & Averbukh (thought they were all terrible)
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I might have had B&K 2nd in the Argentine Tango. As overrated as they are they did do an excellent dance and I had some problems with K&O's, way too far apart throughout, and on very inside edges on the crossrolls in both patterns. I think I would have B&K higher in the technical score, but K&O higher in the presentation score that dance, so not sure which would come ahead.

    I see by your placings A&P would have won the silver overall ahead of K&O though due to the FD.

    Where do you think Moniotte & Lavanchy belonged. I know some potrayed them like they were hard done by politics but I think they were just well past their primes and also clearly not ready for the event. I dont even think their 11th was that out of line. I doubt I would have placed them higher than 9th in any dance (maybe 8th in the OD ahead of B&K's horrible dance).
  15. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    I'm not sure I get what you mean by the expression "bringing back". I think the late 1980s and the early 1990s were great for ice dancing. Such fascinating pairs as K/P or D/D competed at that time. So why did G/P need to bring the excitement back?
  16. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Yeah, I can see a case being made for B&K to be ahead of K&O in the argentine tango. I still can't believe Tracy Wilson thought K&O had the best dance that segment of the competition. Don't know what the hell she was smoking.

    As for Moniotte & Lavanchy, they were well past their primes like you noted. Like you, I don't think 11th was completely out of line for them.
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    She was smoking her G&P hateorade. She also seemed to start this annoying habit in 1996 she always had one team she had to worship beyond all sense of logic. From 96-99 it was K&O. After K&P were gone she chose A&P from 2000-2002 (they were the best team clearly those years but the worship was still over the top, and she showed herself a bit hypocritical gushing over some of the same things she ripped apart when they were her beloved k&O's rivals from 96-99), and from 2003-2007 it became Denkova & Stayviski (I do think they were probably the best team in the world that period and often undermarked, but still the worship was over the top). The last 6 years of course it has been Virtue & Moir, except when she is on U.S TV during the period D&W were winning regularly.

    I remember her pointing out how far apart K&O were, but she still passed over it like in the big picture it was nothing which is not accurate when you are so far apart the whole dance. When A&P had a stumble in their 2nd CD in SLC she again passed it off like it was nothing. I agreed with them winning that dance even with that, but it was clearly not nothing. Granted the ultra annoying drama addicted douche Tom Hammond was digging for any controversy over A&P winning, so she had to almost go overboard in her praise of them to keep Tom and the drama obsessed NBC team at bay, and from pulling another Sale & Pelletier (which you know they were itching to do with all the French based rumors).

    Still a very good and technically knowledgable commentator overall when she can get out of her own way. Atleast she was apt at pointing out B&K's flaws and why they were having a hard time climbing out of 3rd or 4th in the world, which many other Canadians were either scared or blind to ever do.
  18. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Yeah Tracy's commentating can be very questionable. But concerning your last point, have you ever seen Judy Blumberg's commentary on Bourne & Kraatz and Anissina & Peizerat's ODs at the 1998 Worlds? She absolutely tore B&K apart for their lack of content while deservedly praising A&P's brilliant OD. I kept thinking 'yes, finally a commentator who will call them out on their lack of content.' I remember being super-annoyed when the other commentators kept talking about a 'conspiracy' after the OD finished even though Judy very bluntly pointed out what was wrong with B&K's programs and their skating.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    Yes Judy did an excellent job. She did praise B&K's good points too but called the construction of the program baffling at best. I think Dubova while an excellent technical coach, was herself jaded and blinded by bitterness after some dissapointments, and bought too much into the silly NA "bloc judging otherwise B&K would be dominating and unbeatable" false hype and didnt even sit back and objecitvely analyze what she was working on with them, and correcting their weaknesses. She did do a good job adding more footwork to their routines, and making them less just the hydro blade kids. Even though I didnt agree with their 96 world bronze the improvement in their programs from the grand prix final only a month earlier which made that medal possible was astonishing and does show her expertise as a dance coach. However she also bought into the hype on them too much, and seemed blinded to what their true abilities were, and what they still needed to work on.

    While I loved Riverdance when it first came out, and still do in many ways, it also was a bad program for them in many ways as it showed all their worst weaknesses. So much side by side skating, the few moments in that dance they were even hand to hand rather than not even that were their hardest dance holds off the dance, and that is what is most teams even ones at the bottom the easiest. Shae Lynn's awful posture, especialy in the slow part. Their unision problems, although at the 98 worlds FD they did have their best ever performance to it and had their unision better than I ever saw it (although I still agreed with their 3rd place in that dance). It shows she had bought into the hype and was not even realistic in assessing them anymore. She probably was immune to putting out a dance that showcased their biggest weaknesses, as she deluded herself into thinking they were the perfect team who didnt have any.
  20. neptune

    neptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,952
    Well, we all have our own tastes. But I found G&P's dancing to be rather clumsy and herky-jerky. In Lillehammer, they didn't have nearly the maturity or polish of T&D or U&Z IMO. The main thing they had was speed.

    Of course, a lot of people think Mariah Carey is the greatest too, but I've always had trouble understanding her appeal. To me, she has about as much personality, warmth, and charisma as a piece of cardboard. ;)

    If you like that kind of thing, then yes, I could see that. And I agree that, technically at least, they pushed ice dance to a new level.

    Yes, most fans don't consider those teams to be among the greatest in history.
  21. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Yeah, Dubova was probably very jaded by that point. But she only had herself to blame. She lost Klimova, Ponomarenko, Grishuk, Platov, and Navka because of her favouritism. Perhaps you're right that she was desperate to coach an Olympic champion so she convinced herself that B&K were the one even though they weren't an Olympic gold calibre team.

    At the 98 Worlds, who would you've placed 1st and 2nd in the FD? I personally had Anissina & Peizerat first, Punsulen & Swallow second, and either B&K or K&O in 3rd.
  22. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Concerning Dubova again, I just remembered that she also once coached Linichuk & Karponosov back int the 70s before they left her for Chaikovskaya! I think they left her for a different reason though as from what I remember, Dubova was a young and inexperienced coach and Linichuk wanted someone with more heft to make a champion out of her.
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I had Anissina & Peizerat 1st in the FD, Punsalen & Swallow 2nd, Bourne & Kraatz 3rd, and Krylova & Ovsiannikov 4th. In the OD I had Anissina & Peizerat 1st with a 5.9 for technical merit and 6.0 for presentation, Krylova & Ovsiannikov a distant 2nd with 5.7, 5.7, Lobacheva & Averbuhk 3rd. I didnt see that many other teams, but I had Bourne & Kraatz above the Italians in the OD this time though, unlike the Olympics when I had it reverse. Their OD sucked, but they atleast skated it much better than the Olympics, while the Italians wasnt exactly full of content either and wasnt as well skated.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I cant help but laugh at the idea of Dubova coaching Linichuk. :rofl:
  25. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Lots of people agree with this, me included.

    But there was also one thing about G/P performance that probably was disturbing just for me and had nothing to do with the dance itself. I couldn’t stand Oksana’s open mouth. I kept thinking that if it weren’t for the indoor arena, flies would fall into her mouth. Of course judges couldn’t take this into account while making the verdict ;)
    I realise I'm nasty now.
  26. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Ditto here! But still, Dubova has had a hand in coaching many many high profile teams. Linichuk & Karponosov, Moiseeva & Minenkov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Krikanova & Platov, Usova & Zhulin, Fedorinova & Platov, Grishuk & Platov, Navka & Gezalijan, and then later Bourne & Kraatz. I can't recall who she coached after that but I do vaguely remember seeing her in the kiss and cry area in SLC with Chait & Sakhnovsky.
  27. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,448
    I also thought A&P were the team with greater potential. I don't think K&O would have had smooth sailing thru the next Olympics had they stayed in.

    Though not my favorites initially, I came to really appreciate what Grishuk & Platov brought to dance. To me, they were without question the best team from 95-98. That said, I was not sorry to see them retire after 98, as her act was wearing thin. Also, the US broadcasters really had a down on them and I was tired of listening to those folks complaining about their results.
  28. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Were the US commentators down on them? Judy Blumberg seemed to have nothing but praise for them while Dick Button seemed to strongly prefer them to either K&O or B&K. I'm not familiar with any other U.S commentary on them though.
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    Tracy Wilson, Scott Hamilton, Verne Lundquist, Susie Wynne, Peter Carruthers, Rosalynn Sumners, all enjoyed dumping on them at each opportunity. Susie Wynne called the 5.6 the Canadian or American judge gave them for technical merit for their FD at the grand prix final a fair and accurate mark, and said the rest should be more like that.
  30. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Oh right, I keep forgetting Tracy did commentary for U.S tv a lot during that decade (don't know why that keeps slipping my mind). Peter Carruthers seemed very fond of them in 95-96 but I guess he changed his mind. I've only heard Susie Wynne do commentary on them once and she seemed mixed on them.
  31. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    Wynne and Carruthers were positive on them at one point but in the Olympic season they were much less so. In fairness G&P were making alot of glaring mistakes that season, some falls and stumbles in various programs. Dance experts (which say Carruthers, Sumners, Lundquist, and Hamilton would definitely not fall into) are supposed to see past that and see the differences in basic skating, content, and technical ability that can overcome those mistakes at times, but they did give people a reason/excuse to pick at them some that season. In fairness it is unusual to see the worlds best/dominant team falling and stumbling around from competition to competition, even if they still did enough to merit their wins.

    They also didnt do themselves any favors by having some mistakes in their 97 worlds FD. They still fully deserved to win their, and their Feeling Begins is one of the best programs of all time. However with K&O doing an excellent Masquerade Waltz and still losing (IMO still justified) it was the start of feeding into the protecting the #1/held up theories. Had they skated like Europeans I am sure pretty much all (except maybe sourpuss Wilson) would just be gushing about how great they were. The Euro team were comparing them T&D at their height at Europeans, but unfortunately they had some problems and werent as impressive at worlds, and that is where it all started, and their continuing to make mistakes the next season fed into the unfair slandering of them more.
  32. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    I guess it was good that there were still commentators like Judy Blumberg and Dick Button who were positive when it came to Grishuk & Platov. And I'm not even a fan of the latter when it comes to commentating. He seems to have relatively good tastes when it comes to ice dance though (in my eyes anyways). He hated Bestemianova & Bukhin but loved Klimova & Ponomarenko. He seemed positive on Grishuk & Platov (during their time with Tarasova anyways, not so much during their stint with Linichuk).
  33. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Oh God, did you see the CBC commentary that year where Tracy Wilson criticized The Feeling Begins as G&P skating very fast and then just posing? I seriously wanted to slap her at that point. To blatantly lie like is just inexcusable.
  34. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I hate his commentary on singles, especialy ladies. His fixation on spirals and laybacks to the extent of all else is annoying. He is also a Kwan and Cohen uber and Russian hater (even the men like Yagudin and Plushenko) of the worst kind. Funny how he never made hardly a comment on her layback, even befoe she developed a reasonably good one in 2001.

    The man is a genius though. Deep down he knows his stuff on anything. Including ice dance. His assessments on B&K vs G&P at the 97 worlds were frank and very fair. He pointed out B&K's positive qualities and liked their dance alot, and commended their improvement since last year, but he also pointed out the difficulty of the program, and the power and impact of it being nowhere near G&P and hence the lower marks, especialy in technical merit.
  35. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    She needs to look up the word posing in the dictionary. Doing a few portions where the moves get a bit slower but you are still doing footwork or upper body movements while moving very fast along the ice is not posing. Baiul is what posing is.
  36. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Exactly! And true, there were moves were amateurs or ignoramuses might consider 'posing' but holding positions while gliding over running edges dose not fall into that category! Funny how she would applaud other couples for showing such abilities but criticize G&P for doing so and labeling it as something else completely. Like I mentioned elsewhere, her commentary on G&P during that decade should be looked upon as a major source of shame for her.
  37. neptune

    neptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,952
    Do you mean in their FD at Lillehammer?

    Well, they could have awarded extra points for pest control. ;)

    You know, it's funny--I just watched G&P's OD from 1992. That dance was very intricate but smooth. Even the commentators mentioned that. They also said that G&P were perhaps the best in the world (even then) at covering an ice rink. I found their performance quite charming as well. Now, if they normally skated that way, then I would've been able to get into them a lot more. Too bad they didn't have an intricate and smooth dance for Lillehammer. Of course, none of the top couples had great dances there, but I thought G&P's dance was the emptiest and most gimmicky. Yes, it was fun, but the entertainment value concealed a lot of flaws IMO.
  38. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I wonder if looking back now she is ashamed. I sure hope so. I dont know why she would be so bitter towards G&P. She wasnt at all bitter towards a team like B&B, and was gracious and heavy in praise to them, even though the skating hierarchy had determined she had no hope of beating them despite most times probably a superior team, atleast in a technical sense (which deep down I am sure she realized). It is not like she was ever even competing against G&P.
  39. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Back then, they were working with Dubova and her choreographer. And that lady was a far superior choreographer to Linichuk. Then again, a whole lot of people are far superior choreographers to Linichuk!
  40. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    I too hope she's ashamed, especially for someone who actually does know a lot about the sport. I also found it funny how she (grudgingly) acknowledged that G&P had extremely strong free legs in 98 and how they used their running edges well to speed around corners so they could extend them yet trash them as much as possible at other times and then at the 2002 and 2006 Olympics she would place a ton of emphasis on the important of free leg positions. I kept thinking if they're that important, then why'd you badmouth a team who demonstrated those very strengths that you're emphasizing now!!! She could be truly infuriating at times.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014