1992 Worlds: Ladies Short Program

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by TheIronLady, Mar 7, 2013.

  1. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    All this talk of Laetitia Hubert got me looking for a program by her that I enjoyed watching, and I believe I found one in her energetic performance at 1992 Worlds. The judging of the SP at 1992 Worlds was interesting to say the least, especially Hubert's placement. What do you think of the judges' rankings?

    1st Place Ordinal, Kristi Yamaguchi, USA

    2nd Place Ordinal, Chen Lu, CHN

    3rd Place Ordinal, Nancy Kerrigan, USA

    4th Place Ordinal, Tonya Harding, USA

    5th Place Ordinal, Laetitia Hubert, FRA

    6th Place Ordinal, Josée Chouinard, CAN

    7th Place Ordinal, Karen Preston, CAN

    8th Place Ordinal, Alice Sue Claeys, BEL/USA. Her 92 Worlds SP does not appear to be on YouTube.
    The best alternative I could find was this clip of Claeys' 1992 Euros SP

    9th Place Ordinal, Patricia Neske, GER

    10th Place Ordinal, Surya Bonaly, FRA

    11th Place Ordinal, Yuka Sato, JPN
     
  2. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    I've never seen this Harding SP before - I had no idea she changed the SP after Albertville. I don't know that it was ... "her".

    I really liked Lu Chen's SP, I always loved the way she used her arms, and even this SP had it's voidy moments - full marks for the costume too :lol: :respec:
     
  3. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what Nancy and Tonya are doing so high in the standings.
    Really, it was a SP, with required elements.
    IMO, the standings should have been more :
    1-Kristi
    2-Lu Chen
    3-Laetitia Hubert
    4-Nancy Kerrigan
    5-Josee Chouinard
    6-Karen Preston
    7-Tonya Harding
     
  4. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I am most struck by Yuka Sato's headband. She looks like she just walked off a 1988 fashion runway. In other words, she looks zany. I think Yuka is dazzling in spite of the choreography and bad early 90s cut dress.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  5. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I watched the video of Tonya Harding. There was always so much drama associated with everything she did!

    BTW, she and Rosalynn Sumners were from the same area of the country. Did Tonya and Rosalynn ever share coaching staff / choreographers, etc.??
     
  6. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    I believe that Barbara Flowers choreographed for both.
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the short program standings should have been:

    1. Yamaguchi
    2. Chen
    3. Chouinard
    4. Preston
    5. Hubert
    6. Kerrigan
    7. Harding
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    With the event in the U.S it was always predictable even if any of Yamaguchi, Harding, and Kerrigan had a huge mistake (and in the case of Harding and Kerrigan only trying a double lutz combo and still missing it apparently was not enough) they were going to be held up into the top 3 or 4 after the SP, while the others who made even smaller mistakes (eg- Josee`s double flip, Sato`s combination) were going to be hammered for it.
     
  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I had to giggle when Harding first bobbled at her free leg in the first spiral and then on her edge in the second while she forced herself to smile through the whole thing. I actually quite like the program. At least there was no fierce high kicks anymore. Most elements were strong. Still, no combo at all is such a killer.

    Besides Yamaguchi and Chen, I would also have Chouinard in the top 3. Her mistake was minor and her triple combo was clean. Everything else was perfect. Her program was complex and her execution was solid and much more polished than Chen.

    Sato was glorious and probably the best skater that night along with Chouinard. If her combo was clean she would be at least 2nd in my score card.

    I had issues with many of Hubert's elements. The spiral sequence was virtually non existent and she never bothered to arch her back in the layback spin. Her 2axel landing wasn't so solid either and her combo, while perfect, was much easier than Chouinard's. And then she never held any position in her combo spin. Little deductions here and there should accumulate to prevent her from scoring too high despite skating a seemingly clean program.

    Kerrigan was just the most average skater ever and this is even more apparent when she doesn't skate clean. Perhaps if the judges weren't so unreasonably favouring her in 1992 at the Olympics and at Worlds here, they probably would have some love left for her in 1994. :p

    My take:

    1. Yamaguchi 5.8/5.9
    2. Chouinard 5.5/5.8
    3. Chen 5.6/5.6
    4. Sato 5.3/5.8
    5. Harding 5.2/5.7
    6. Kerrigan 5.2/5.5
    7. Hubert 5.0/5.6

    (I haven't watched anyone else)
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  10. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    Wasn't Alice Sue Claeys clean? I thought she was under-marked throughout the entire competition and could've conceivably ended up on the podium, as crazy as that sounds. The bells on her short program make me :inavoid:.
     
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  11. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    I believe the ordinals were all over the place, so there might have been flip-flops

    Note Vanessa Riley's ordinals - pretty much in line with how she judged the same skaters in Albertville...
     
  12. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    I think so. Vanessa Riley put Sato 2nd in the long and Claeys 3rd, and I think my own judging scorecard would have been most similar to hers. Alice Sue managed 4 quality triples in the long program, although nothing more difficult than the loop.

    Hubert, 6 triples and all (or whatever it was), had absolutely no refinement and still managed to fall twice. I loved her later in her career, but here I think she should have been about 8th or 9th in the free skate at best.

    FWIW- a few years ago I put up the of the top 12 skaters in the LP in relation to each other-- listed by final placement. Here they are:
    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2010/07/1992-worlds-ordinals-someone-school-me.html
     
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  13. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting contrast of music with the two pieces used in the program. Does anyone know the name of the music that is used in the second half of Lu Chen's program? Sounds so 80's. :D
     
  14. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Beetlejuice soundtrack
     
  15. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I thought it sounded familiar but I couldn't put a name on it.
     
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  16. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Whatever happened to Alice Sue after 1992? She seems to be an accountant in Atlanta now. It looks like she was very bright and attended university at age 14.
     
  17. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    She competed at US Nationals in 1996; short program was televised. She also qualified for 1998 Nationals and practiced earlier in the week but withdrew before the competition started.
     
  18. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Did anyone watch Sandra Bezic's educational piece following the Nancy Kerrigan SP clip? It's at 7:22. Sandra uses clips of Surya's jumps to illustrate the technical errors a skater can make. :lol: I would be so offended at Canadian television if I were Surya!

     
  19. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Did she give up on Belgium? Or can you compete in multiple nationals and take the best offer?
     
  20. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I believe she did give up on Belgium.

    Whether a skater can compete in more than one federation's national championships in the same year depends on the rules of that federation at the time. But whether they could compete internationally would also depend on ISU rules at the time.

    Usually when a skater switches mid-season it's someone who hadn't competed internationally at all yet or not within the last year or two.

    I seem to remember reading or hearing that Claeys had tried to make the 1994 Olympic team for Belgium and when it became clear that wasn't happening (some combination of injury and Belgian Olympic Committee rules?), she turned her focus back to the US. But I don't remember details.
     
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  21. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Interesting that she switched from a relatively non-competitive skating nation (field wise) to a very competitive nation. I would think she could easily make Euros and Worlds while skating for Belgium.
     
  22. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    She was the USA junior champion in 1990, so she was away from US Nationals from 1991-1995. As gkelly noted, it seems she could not get her BEL eligibility to participate in the Olympics. She competed in three world championships for Belgium 1992-1994, but she did not attend either the 1992 or 1994 Olympics. I agree that she would have been a credit to the European ladies field in the 1990s (and the Worlds for that matter). There maybe were other factors--an injury as gkelly said--that caused her to leave the BEL federation.

    She was a pretty skater, and I admire her for graduating from University of Minnesota at age 19.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  23. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Except it's not like she would qualify for the Olympics in 1998 while skating for the US. But if she stayed for Belgium at least she could skate at Worlds / Euros. I am not sure how injury could affect which federation to represent, but perhaps funding would.
     
  24. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    Sato's programme was fantastic. That FW :swoon: Shame about the combo - but considering others mistakes, she got screwed :(
     
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  25. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I stopped after the top 7, where the missing video was.

    There were no formal "base values" then, but a lot of judges tended to mark the SP with a mental starting technical mark based on planned content, from which they took deductions or rewarded excellence. In that era, the judges expected ladies with an eye on the podium to be doing the 3Z-2T combination. By using an easier combination, Preston and Hubert are basically telling the judges they know they are not as good as the top competitors, and the judges will start them at a lower level.

    Kristi Y would have been first on my card. She skated with ease and polish. IMO Chen Lu was a clear second.

    After that we had two otherwise good skates each with a jump problem. Kerrigan doubled the Lutz and 2T was UR with both hands down (.2 or .4 deduction). Chouinard has a slight UR and step out on the 2 flip (.2 deduction). I think Kerrigan's much bigger jump problem should have put her behind Chouinard, maybe even Preston.

    Then we have a clean but totally pedestrian skate from Preston with no lutz (3F-2T and 2Lo) and a clean but sloppy and totally juniorish skate from Hubert, also with no lutz (3 Lo-2T and 2F) and a spin that traveled pretty badly. I would have Preston in front of Hubert.

    The real dilemma comes over where to place Harding. She popped her lutz and omitted the back of the combo, which was a mandatory .5 deduction under the 1992 scoring system. Still, her overall skating skills were much superior, her spins stronger. She starts with a higher technical base value so the .5 deduction wouldn't leave her technical mark that far behind Preston & Hubert and she should have a distinctly higher presentation mark than Hubert who didn't hold her positions at all and looked like what she was - a skater just up from juniors.

    So, my ranking would have been
    1-Kristi
    2-Lu Chen
    3-Josee Chouinard
    4-Nancy Kerrigan
    5-Karen Preston
    6-Tonya Harding
    7-Laetitia Hubert
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    It's not so offending...It's to show the different kind of landings, and she uses Surya for good and bad examples. And she uses another skater for the worst : fall ! Although I'm sure she could have found a fall by Surya, lol
     
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    She was 7th in the World in 1992, and won the silver at Skate Canada in 1992 ahead of Josee Chouinard and Tonya Harding (Harding at the time was the #2 U.S skater and a regular at World and Olympic events for them). Given the U.S women seemed to be going into a weak spell, her standing in the World at that point, and her youth, it would have made sense to think she could made the 98 Olympic team in the future at the time. Little did she know her own skating was going to fall way off rather than improve and master improve all the triples, and the U.S women were about to take off again with the Kwan steamroller leading the way.
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Claeys in 92 and 93 btw was very easily beating someone like Tonia Kwiatkowski in international competition, someone who made the 96 and 98 World teams (and would have in 97 without a meltdown, and arguably should have in 95). Tonia is much older than Claeys. Yet Tonia got alot better after 92-93, while the much younger Claeys inexplicably got alot worse. There was no reason she shouldnt have thought at that point she could make future U.S teams though.
     
  29. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Claeys never had a triple lutz or flip, as far as I know. By 1993 it was starting to be important to have those jumps if one wanted top-10 finish at Worlds, and by 1995 it was pretty much required.

    I happened to attend 1997 Upper Great Lakes, which she won with two pretty clean programs, I think 4 triples including a 3loop in the freeskate. Based on how Nationals went that year, I think if she had competed with the exact same performances as at UGL, she could have been 6th in each program and 7th overall. But apparently she didn't have a good day at sectionals that year and didn't make to Nashville.
     
  30. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    Claeys did have a triple flip. I think she only competed it once or twice, though -- perhaps in 1993? I heard she had it back in 1999 or 2000, and she attempted triple toe - triple toe and a double flip (presumably meant to be a triple?) in the short program at Easterns.
     
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