1984 Pairs Olympic Podium-Long Programs

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by caseyedwards, Jul 7, 2010.

  1. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,340
    Elena Valova and Oleg Vasiliev 1984 Olympics LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkdYWPdbL7s

    Kitty & Peter Carruthers 1984 Olympics LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5agtpQats8M

    Selezneva & Makarov (URS) -1984 Sarajevo, Pairs' Long Program
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7wSsNCxS_M


    Major Gold Medal coach Vasiliev

    Because of all I saw of Carruthers on Universal Sports doing commetary wanted to see his performance!

    Also parents of Ksenia Makarova won Bronze

    V/V had good tech and greater artistry

    Carruthers had good tech and medium artistry

    S/M good music but sloppy

    The talk about the Carruthers doing a throw quad salchow! In 1984?!?

    All judges went for V/V! Feel Carruthers underscored tech overscored artistic
  2. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,484
    IMO, The Carruthers should have won. But politics being what it was (and is), as only the 4th ranked pair in the world coming into the event, the favourites were Valova and Vassiliev. This competition began Tamara Moskvina's reign as a master promotor and politician as well.

    Good that Underhill & Martini, who were co-favourites for the gold, came back to skate so well (and win) a few weeks later in Ottawa after performing so poorly here.
  3. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,340
    Carruthers were good-no doubt about that! The Japanese judge really hated them for some reason!

    I guess Underhill and Martini just had bad Olympic jitters.

    Also the debut of Lloyd Eisler!
  4. Cloudy_Gumdrops

    Cloudy_Gumdrops New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    11,834
    80s hair and costumes were just so bad. :rofl:

    Split twists used to be soooooooooooo tiny.

    I too think that the Carruthers should have won.

    Wow, for a Russian pair, S&M were supremely sloppy. They look like they skated with a lot of power and some good speed though. Seriously overscored if you ask me.
  5. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,416
    There was quite a bit of talk about Barbara Underhill's beige skates being a problem. It may have been an actual problem or psychological one - but she changed back to her white boots for Worlds and it seemed to do the trick whatever the cause!

    That was a magical night at Worlds in 84!And in those days with all the ordinals and the top teams being so close - people in the arena generally didn't know who won until people at the end saw the order of the flags for the victory ceremony. Then quite a roar made its way around the crowd!
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    Based on what were Underhill & Martini co-favorites for the gold? They had won only 1 world medal- a bronze, and had been injured and not done any competitions since those Worlds. I know some felt they should have won the 83 Worlds but since they werent even really close to doing so in the end, that isnt anything that would make them favorites. If anything Baess & Theirbach were co-favorites for the gold based on the results of the past 3 seasons.

    I dont agree the Carruthers should have won at all. I was never a big fan of Valova & Vasiliev but their program was far more difficult and they only had one real mistake. A team that wasnt even favored to medal would need to deliver the knockout punch to win and the Carruthers IMO certainly didnt do that, even though it was the best they had probably ever skated. The Carruthers were clearly the only top pair who skated their very best and were rewarded for that with a silver medal when they would have finished about 5th had everyone done what they were capable of doing.

    I agree Selezneva & Makarov were overscored at this particular event, but would be underscored the remainder of their careers. I would have given Baess & Theirbach the bronze even with their mistakes in both programs.
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,376
    LOL, I agree but in 20 years, we will probably say the same about 2000s !
  8. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,130
    Overall the podium was correct. The Carruthers were far too weak as individual skaters to win gold over V/V. Their program didn't have nearly the content that V/V's did. S/M most definitely deserved bronze over B/T. Their SP was wonderful and their LP was good enough. B/T didn't skate all that well in either program really. Disappointing SP with him popping the loop and the LP wasn't good enough to make the podium IMO.
  9. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,958
    IMO, the pecking order going into Sarajevo was -

    1. Valova/Vasiliev - Defending World Champs. They were a great pair but were buttressed by the Soviet Fed. which had a monopoly on the gold in Olympic Pairs

    2. Baess/Thierbach - '81 and '83 World Runner-ups and '82 World Champs. They were quite athletic. IIRC, they did 3 throw jumps to win '82 Worlds and had a lot of history

    I honestly feel the intl. judges didn't care which NA team came after - Underhill/Martini or Carruthers'. Both had about the same history - each pair had a bronze at Worlds. Even as an American, I thought U/M had better skills but Carruthers' always did well internationally.

    I think the dark horse was Selezneva/Makarov. IIRC, during the broadcast in Sarajevo it was stated that S/M were the most talented USSR team, but they had no history going into Sarajevo. I think they were injured at the time of the '83 Worlds., but this all off the top of my head. Additionally, they never seemed really consistent and I'm not sure the Soviet Fed. had a lot of love for them.

    EVeryone else was significantly behind these 5 teams IMO -#2 GDR pair, Birgit Lorenz/Knut Schubert whom I believe medalled once at Euros and #2 US pair Jill Watson with then-partner cutie Burt Lancon [whatever happened to him]
  10. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,340
    It looks like Selezneva/Makarov were never at Euros or worlds until after the Olympics they won bronze at. They got all the Gold Medalists right but sports illustrated predicted for Pairs V/V then Baess/Theirbach-EG, then bronze Underhill/ Martini-Can. And their dark horse was not even the silver or bonze medalists but Lorenz/Schubet-East Germany.
  11. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,958
    Lorenz/Schubert is a team that did fairly well in a short period of time results-wise but they never really had what I'd call a high profile. They were technically solid but :yawn:
  12. pumba

    pumba New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,100
    I guess with each couple skating clean V/V would have won anyway. They had the best skills and one of the most difficult programmes. Baes/Tierbach would have been in 2nd, with 2-3 Soviet teams, the 2nd EG, the Canadian and the US couples competing for the bronze.
    The Carruthers skated their best, while V/V showed a solid, but not the best performance they could, which still was enough to win fairly.
  13. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,484
    It's going to give me tremendous pleasure to upload a scan I've made from an article by my friend, and colleague, Sandra Stephenson, with a preview of the Sarejevo Olympics.
  14. IneZR

    IneZR New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    978
  15. pollyanna

    pollyanna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,954
    Not so much jitters as it was Barb's boot problems.

    It was boot problems, but the color wasn't the issue, as she used beige boots for Worlds also. She had new boots for 1984 Olympics which did not work for her, so she attached her new blades to her old boots for Worlds, and the rest is history. Electrifying performance and my favorite Concerto in F performance ever.
  16. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    715
    Placements were fair, but I would have put Baess/Thierbach’s LP in 3rd place, and Selezneva/Makarov’s LP in 4th, there would be a tie, and Baess/Thierbach would have gotten bronze. B/T were cleaner in other areas of their skating than S/M.

    If everyone skated clean, my podium would be V/V and B/T in the top 2 for sure, with U/M finishing 3rd. S/M and the Carruthers would fight for 4-5th place.
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    If everyone had skated cleanly I would have gone with:

    1. Underhill & Martini
    2. Baess & Theirbach
    3. Valova & Vasiliev- great pair but wierd program musically and choreographically
    4. Selezneva & Makarov
    5. Carruthers


    However I suspect if everyone had skated cleanly in both programs the judges placings would have been:

    1. Valova & Vasiliev
    2. Baess & Theirbach
    3. Underhill & Martini
    4. Selezneva & Makarov
    5. Carruthers


    How I had the placings with how they all did actually skate:

    1. Valova & Vasiliev- clearly. Sorry I like the Carruthers but V&V even just a bit off are superior technically and artisticlaly to the Carruthers at their best.

    2. Carruthers- reward for being the only top pair to skate 2 clean programs.

    3. Baess & Theirbach- even with their problems their overall skate was better than the 2nd Russians IMO. I dont see how they lost out to both to Carruthers and S&M on the 2nd mark.

    4. Selezneva & Makarov

    8. Underhill & Martini- sorry their performances in Sarajevo sucked, especialy their long. They were lucky to even end up as top Canadian pair.
  18. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    715
    Like i mentioned above, i think Valova/Vassilev and Baess/Thierbach should have been top 2 if they were clean. Why not? They were the best 2 pairs at that event. Artistically the most polished, but even more so, technically, their elements were the hardest. V/V's solo 3t and B/T's throw 3loop should have given them the edge on the first mark.

    and of course, U/M in 3rd place. Not sure why they should have deserved first even if clean.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    I think U/M wuold have deserved 1st if clean since all their elements outside the jumps were superior to Valova & Vasiliev; and their elements outside the jumps and throw were superior to B/T. B/T were not considered that strong on the 2nd mark, they were always more a technical team. V/V were overrated on the 2nd mark at that point, their program was a mish mash of strange music and choreography. At the 83 Worlds when all 3 skated well many people felt Underhill & Martini were robbed of the gold.
  20. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,340
    Is it weird to say this is the thread I was hoping for when I posted this topic?!? So much good info!!!!
  21. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,778
    And many felt that B/T were robbed of the gold that year too, myself included. After V&V skated their LP with errors, yet placed above a virtually clean Baess & Thierbach, the US broadcast had a clip of Kitty Carruthers in the crowd exclaiming;

    'They're ahead of Tassilo and Sabine? But that's crazy....CRAZY!!' :lol:

    1983 Worlds made it very clear that V&V were being groomed for the OGM and their sbs triple toes seemed to allow the judges to overlook all the other errors. But after a few years of very inconsistent soviet pairs (Pestova/Leonovich, Vorobieva/Lisovsky, Pershina/Akbarov) it's not surprising that all of the soviet political firepower went behind V&V leading into Sarejevo.
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    Yeah it seemed V&V were pushed hard to the top out of nowhere mainly on the basis of being the best of one of the weakest groups of Soviet pairs. They were in the right place at the right time. The funny thing is their skating greatly improved over the next 4 years and yet they still found their reign abruptly once Gordeeva & Grinkov emerged.
  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,958
    I didn't get a chance to see '83 Worlds pairs. It sounds like the power of the Soviet Fed in the Pairs domain was too much to overcome.

    I also have to admit that as much as I like the gutsiness of the Carruthers', I think they would've been at a disadvantage had B/T, U/M and S/M all skated their best and the American pair would've probably finished 5th. Then again, who knows what they would've attempted in the LP had B/T and U/M gone clean in the SP and they had nothing to lose: a throw 4sal may have been attempted which they were landing in practice. I was surprised when I rewatched their LP that C/C didn't do SBS 2x's [unless I missed something] to try and gain some ground on the top teams.

    C/C were 5th in 1980 Olympics, BTW which is where they would've ended up again. C/C may have ended up the B/A of the Pairs early 80s scene....trying hard but being passed by other teams.
  24. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,778
    Of all the footage I've seen, I never saw Kitty & Peter compete sbs 2x's. They may have done it elsewhere in another competition but if they did have them they must have been pretty inconsistent as they were never attempted at the major championships where they needed them most. They did have a throw triple loop which they were landing as early as 1978 and completed at the 1978 US Sports festival in Colorado Springs but that disappeared from the repertoire aswell by 1980 it seems.

    All that considered, C&C skated their best program, at the best time when others didn't. It is still my fave pairs LP to watch from that event :)
  25. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    13,663
  26. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,130
    Completely agree that V/V should have been 3rd at 83 worlds behind both the Canadians and East Germans. I love V/V but they were very sloppy in the LP at 83 worlds.

    The Carruthers came home from Helsinki and were very upset about the judging. They didn't agree with the final results at all. Peter gave a brief interview with CBS at worlds where it clearly showed he was pissed off about the judging.
  27. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    715
    Yes, 1983 worlds was most definitely weird in terms of placements. U/M program and choreography was my favourite of the pairs, and they deserved to win, but so too did B/T. I have no clue what the politics were like at the time but it did seem that Moskvina's strategy of including a risky element like the 3t's would always allow an almost clean V/V to place ahead of clean pairs such as both U/M and esp. the Carruthers.
    Did they think they should have medalled? or just upset about the placements of the top 3?
  28. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,484
    Whether they were upset or not about getting a medal, I know that I would be upset about the actual standings.

    When you think about it, a pair making their debut in World competition and winning is great and should be applauded for having that kind of impact. However, that they won with a flawed performance over other teams that skated better, specifically Baess / Thierbach, and Underhill / Martini, that's not so good. Valova and Vassiliev became a better team after 1984. I love their free skate from 1985.

    6.0 logic should be applied to my concern. IJS would produce a different outcome again, no doubt. (And no, I'm not suggesting this become a thread about what the final result would be under the current judging system with a breakdown of individual components.)