1984 OLY Ladies Long Program

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by longingfornia, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. pollyanna

    pollyanna playing the Glad Game

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    I agree, but I also think her 2 lutz-3 toe combination helped a lot. That's one tough combination, and the only other skater I know of that could compete it back then was Zayak, and she did not attempt it here.

    True, gkelly, but I still think he's an arse. ;)
     
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  2. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    ;) Yep, they were the only two. Dubravcic also did it at the 1980 Olympics but by 84 much of her jumping ability had been curtailed through puberty and the Zayak rule.

    That's another reason why I get so annoyed at the likes of Scotvold (yeah and the editors) and so many authors making out that all Zayak had was a triple toe. It was Dubravcic who would do like 5 triple toes in one LP, NOT Elaine and while Elaine did 4 at 1982 Worlds she did them from different entrances and transitions and in very difficult combos (3t walley steps 3twalley, 2z/3t, 2 splits into triple toe) while Dubravcic did them the same way all the way through. elaine actually had very balanced technical programs and you never got the impression she was doing the same element over and over. Before youtube, all you ever heard from documentaries and books was this same story and how that rule came about because Elaine supposedly kept doing the same triple jump all the time. Even as late as 1995, Christine Brennan told the world that Elaine was such a success in her comeback because hse landed a triple loop as an adult - something she couldn't do in her peak years. Erm yep ok love. :blah: Hello RESEARCH???? :rolleyes:
     
  3. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Am I the only one who thinks that Elaine deserved better than she received in 1994. too?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The reason Dubravcic hardly got any flak as the true originator of repeating triple toes is she wasnt even relevant enough for most people to care about. Zayak was a name so she was an easier target.
     
  5. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    We had a commentator in Australia, Mike Gibson, who was covering the 84 Worlds and 88 Olympics. He made a number of comments in relation to Witt, many of them very sexist. He even tried to make out the reason why Witt beat Debi Thomas in the SP in 88 was due to the fact that Witt was better looking than Debi. He was saying this to Torvill and Dean who were commentating with him.

    The 84 Worlds coverage his co-commetator is a coach I know and she was kind of sitting their smiling at his comments whilst he was practially jerking himself off watching her.

    When I get some time one day, I am going to do a compilation of his comments and post them on Youtube.
     
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Enjoying all the Elaine Love :)

    Elaine did the 3loop cleanly at '84 Olys and '84 Worlds that I know of...
     
  7. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Elaine had a triple loop right from the get go at Worlds in 1980. Not that Brennan bothered to check that up or anything. Why let a little matter of a few videos get in the way of your hyperbole? :lol:
     
  8. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Questions I had that anyone can comment on -

    If Elaine hadn't been injured at '83 Worlds, completed the comp and her programs were say, at least as strong as her '83 Nats programs, where would she have ultimately placed - threat for gold? medal? were her '83 Nats programs stronger than Leistner, Vodorezova? would she have been off the podium? She was defending world champ in '83. Would the judges have given her scores a small extra boost that Champions usually get?

    I remember Leistner and Vodorezova had scores in the mid 5's in the LP. I'm sure that Elaine's '83 Nats LP would've beaten those.

    Also would no injury and standing at '83 Worlds have boosted her in the Olympic season of '83 - '84? What influence?
     
  9. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

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    Thanks so much for this link; never seen this before, was an interesting watch. I felt a bit sorry for Sumners; 84 was clearly a painful experience she has carried with her.
     
  10. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to hear those; and see T and D's reaction.

    Here is: Elaine Zayak - 1983 U.S. Figure Skating Championships, LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QUaaxMC70

    Dick and Peggy's comments give one the idea that TPTB had already decided to "push" Rosalynn, instead of Elaine.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  11. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    What drama!!:drama::violin::watch:
     
  12. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. The Roz v. Elaine situation was unique. Since then, I don't believe I've ever heard Dick & Peggy sing the praises of one skater at the US national level, then mostly diss her main challenger [but who knows]. Jeez. Sarah Hughes had issues as a skater and Peggy wouldn't shut up about how wonderful she was. Why did Elaine elicit so much disrespect?

    Elaine had half of a foot from a lawn mower accident, didn't have a politically well-connected coach [as discussed in this book I read 'Little Girls in pretty Boxes' - something like that], yet was still '79 World Jr. Champ, '80 US Olympic alternate, '81 Natl. Champ, '81 World Silver Medalist, '82 World Champ, '84 World Bronze Medalist, had the Zayak rule named after her. She probably would've medalled in '83 but for injury, so she would've been on the Worlds podium from '81 - '84 each time, and that beats Roz's or Tiffany's records
     
  13. pollyanna

    pollyanna playing the Glad Game

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    Very interesting. So Roz had 3 triples, a fall, and very weak spins, yet won the LP. Elaine had 6 triples, one of which was a touch down, and one of which was a loop, spins that were superior to Roz's, yet scored lower. I wonder who paid off those judges? ;)
     
  14. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    I loved "Fire on Ice," have it on videotape, but it was painful to watch that again. Roz's coach should still get a big thump on the head for the way she acted during the Olympics. Yes, Roz is responsible for her own emotions, but her coach did everything to bring her down and nothing to bring her back up after the short program. Very, very sad.

    I also remember reading somewhere (I think it may have been "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes") that Elaine wanted to quit amateur skating after her World's win, but her coaches and parents pushed her to stay in the sport through the Olympics. She gained some weight, and her father took away her car and also ordered the rink cafe to sell her nothing but coffee, no food. She was miserable, and then the injury, and then we know the rest. Anyone else recall this? Elaine was a wonderful skater, I've met her as a coach, she is just delightful. She will always be the most memorable ladies skater we had during that time period in my book.
     
  15. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    I've always wondered what occured for the USFSA to just drop Zayak like a hot potato. Maybe it was the fact that she could never be consistent in figures because of her childhood injury? Her placement in figures depended on which foot was drawn and if it was the wrong one for Elaine, no amount of politiking could save her. Plus Chin was in the wings and trying triple flips and triple axels in practice so maybe they thought they didn't need Zayak? I also wonder what influence, if any, the ABC team and Dick and Peggy inparticular had on the situation. All that said, there was absolutely no excuse for Elaine not winning the LP at this event. Utterly ridiculous result. :blah: I do love her slow sections to almost all her amatuer programs. They're a study in how to place great elements to really highlight the music. Love it :D
     
  16. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Aside from the obvious flip and flutz techniques that Sarah had, Sarah was a much more elegant skater than Elaine was. I liked Elaine, but IMO there was a heaviness to her skating and a lack of body awareness.
     
  17. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

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    Would Witt have been so successful if she was butt-ugly?

    (or at least less supposedly stunning...)
     
  18. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Her looks and flirtatious manner certainly didn't hurt her, but Katarina's secret weapon was her competitiveness. As outlined in Fire and Ice - go to youtube and watch the followup to the earlier clip, part 7 covers the Kat/Debi rivalry - she wasn't the greatest skater ever, but she definitely was and remains the greatest COMPETITOR of all the ladies in history. She was supremely confident, and she knew exactly how to psych out her fellow competitors and make them nervous and unsure of themselves (despite the fact that she always played innocent and claimed none of her actions were deliberate). She would make up her own little routines to other skaters' music during practices, cut people off, and flirt with the reporters present to get all the attention for herself. I still remember her positioning herself by the boards after she skated her short program in Calgary in 1988 with her arms crossed, GLARING at Debi Thomas the entire time she skated her short.

    Dick Button once commented that Kat was an absolutely beautiful woman, but he "couldn't recall one memorable thing she did on the ice." That may sound harsh, but she frequently did skate less technically difficult programs than her competitors and often substituted flirtatiousness for actual skating; however, she also skated with power and confidence and rarely made mistakes. Compare that to both Debi and Roz who essentially gave up in their Olympic long programs by psyching themselves out (with a little help in the psych-out arena from Kat).
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I cant think of any event or medal Witt won she probably didnt deserve to other than her 87 NHK gold over Ito. Well some think she didnt deserve to win the 88 Worlds too but I am not sure who else did, maybe Manley.

    I also dont think the judges even cared about spins as a factor in scoring in the 80s.

    On another note it is amazing how much better Sumners got in figures placings in a year as well. She was 11th in figures at the 82 Worlds and 1st in 83.
     
  20. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Witt's figures placing were crazy as well - '83 Worlds - 8th, '84 Worlds - 1st
     
  21. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    Sarah had a very gangly posture when she skated, and while she hit beautiful positions in the spins, her stroking left a lot to be desired imho.
    I loved her double axel and her layback though. And she was a great competitor as usual with most of the American ladies skaters
     
  22. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Is it naive to say that The WHACK made some of the public powers that be in US Skating take a step back and be more gracious towards skaters who aren't elegant and refined both on and off the ice?

    I think Elaine is a fantastic coach, especially for the jumps. We are lucky to still have her in our sport.
     
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I know but many put that down to politics it seems (and she only won the figures at the 84 Worlds since Sumners, Voderezova, and Leistner all did not attend). While on the other hand nobody makes note of Sumners huge jump in figures placings from the 81-82 and previous seasons to the 82-83 season which I find interesting. Sumners was only 5th in figures at her own Nationals in 82 before coming back to win her first U.S title, and I think 8th in figures at an event like Skate Canada where she lost to Tracy Wainmann due to her huge figures deficit. Suddenly in one season she went from being horrible at figures to being dominant in them. Figures is of course the reason she so easily won the 83 Worlds when she was 4th in the short program and barely won the long program over Witt, and nearly won the Olympic Gold despite her dissapointing freestyle performances.

    For the record I have not seen video footage of Sumners doing one compulsory figure ever which makes it all the more intriguing.
     
  24. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    As someone who competed in figures, I have to say that it was not difficult to have a great figures competition in one year and a sucky one the next. It was very stressful, and maybe more inconsistent than free skating.
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am not talking individual competitions only though. Sumners was very weak in figures in EVERY competition before the 82-83 season including when she won her first National title, then seemed to win figures in every competition starting in the 82-83 season.
     
  26. matti

    matti Active Member

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    Kristofics-Binder and Cottrill retired in 1982 and Wegelius in 1983, the three dominating figures in figures.

    Sumners' figure coach was Kathy Casey (at least during the Olympic season). Perhaps she was good or maybe had political clout?
     
  27. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    She also won figures in 1988 (against Manley and Thomas no less...).

    Also for some skaters placements have something to do with what figures are drawn.

    I wish I could find what figures (including starting edges) were skated at which competitin, you'd probably find that lots of skaters just did some figures better than others.

    IIRC 1984 and 1988 both had paragraph double threes (and Witt seemed to do worse when the paragraph figure was a bracket). Didn't Jill Trenary bomb with an inside counter in 1987 worlds (and then again 1988 olys)?

    I'm especially curious about which figures were skated at 1989 worlds.

    There's a few seconds of Sumners doing a figure on youtube (inside counter or rocker IIRC) and she looks pretty good and uncle Dick seemed impressed.
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is also amazing to look at the 84 and 88 Olympics and note how much stronger and deeper the 88 field was than the 84 field. In 1984 atleast half of the final flight were frankly a joke for elite skaters contending for medals. However by 1988 you had quality skaters pushed out of the final flight and so many interesting skaters and performances. Doesnt the fact Rosalynn Sumners ended up entering the 84 Olympics as the gold medal favorite say enough about the field, LOL (with all due respect to Sumners). I would say the only post World War 11 year the Olympic field was weaker than 1984 was 1980.

    Someone like Leistner for instance was in the same shape in 84 as she was in 88 she probably would have been on the podium in 84. She was after all the silver medalist at the 83 Worlds, but was injured for the Sarajevo Games which is why she did poorly. In 1988 she was at the same level she was at when she was clearly one of the top skaters in 82 and 83 but was reduced to an also ran by the field.
     
  29. pollyanna

    pollyanna playing the Glad Game

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    Well that, plus her disastrous SP didn't help. :p
     
  30. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    OMG, what a shock ! :eek:
    This is the first time I watch it. Too bad about the spin, her jumps were beautiful in this SP !