1984 OLY Ladies Long Program

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by longingfornia, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I guess Peggy was the one who snarked on Elaine the more of the two. I mean, C'mon, Elaine was skating with half of a foot and still became a world champ, natl. champ, 3-time world medalist, Olympian, all the time managed to stay cheerful on the ice. What's not to love?

    BTW, while watching the Tiffany Chin '84 Olympic LP youtube clip, I was :blah: over the US commentators talking about Tiffany Chin being the '88 Olympic Champ. It was a little presumptuous...

    Do you mean had she not made the mistakes and skated cleanly? Either 2d or 1st in the SP obviously. I was just now ready to anoint her SP winner and subsequently the Olympic champ, but I think Witt also beat her in the SP in '83, too, right? I'm not sure.

    Even if she'd been 2d in the SP, Roz would've still led, but Witt would've pulled closer and had the factored placements to win overall if she could've beat Roz in the LP.

    If Roz won the SP, she would've put some daylight between herself and Witt, so she could've been 2d in the LP and won the Gold.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  2. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was just thinking what if she had been higher. Closer to gold but still getting silver or actually winning gold.
     
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Rueben was definitely not a superior skater to Ivanova and Kondrashova, and she was just as inconsistent but with less ability. I am pretty stunned she was able to get silver at the 84 Europeans, I imagine she had one of her best competitions and the Russian girls both a very poor one. Her Linda Fratianne ripoff Carmen with the exact same music cuts and choreography was especialy bad. Leistner was in horrible shape for the 84 Olympics and was never going to factor in anything. If she had been in her 82 and 83 shape she could have been very much a factor.

    I guess Voderezova and Leistner were the most likely to maybe help Chin by beating Ivanova and Kondrashova. Actually Voderezova was even higher in figures than Ivanova and Kondrashova though so that wouldnt have helped Chin, it would have just helped herself. Maybe someone like Kay Thomson if she had her best performances ever could have helped.

    If Sumners had won the SP over Witt she would have all but locked up the gold under the factored scoring system. I am not sure if she would have beaten Witt in the SP or not even clean though.
     
  4. 4rkidz

    4rkidz GPF Barcelona here I come

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    I agree with Katerina winning.. she was the skater I became a fan of.. she was just such a lovely balance of artistry, athleticism and beauty.. had something very special..
     
  5. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts exactly. I really loved her attitude.
     
  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    As you know, when Zayak was an infant, she lost part of her left foot in an accident. The injury particularly effected her ability to do certain figures, so her scores in the Compulsories varied considerably depending on what figures were drawn at any particular competition.
     
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I find that I quite enjoy Elaine Zayak. Even her interviews are fantastic. Mirai Nagasu sort of reminds me of Elaine Zayak when the talk to her due to her freshness.

    Even though Roz lost the gold in her LP, I really can't help but enjoy her skating. I found it be quite nice to be honest.
     
  8. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    IINM she had trouble with inside edges so if the first figure was an inside rocker or counter (and I think it was in Sarajevo though I'm not completely sure) that's 9 large circles all on an inside edge and she would be in really bad condition going into the next two (which are 50/50 inside and outside edges)

    I remember a news story at the time that indicated she knew full well that she had done very poorly in the figures at Sarajevo.

    I do think she was completely undermarked in the SP and LP though (I'd have her in the top 2 in both probably).
     
  9. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Here's the video where the injury; and her adjustment to it, are discussed:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Eqk6PoS1M

    She never used it as an excuse; or to elicit sympathy.
     
  10. pollyanna

    pollyanna Well-Known Member

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    If Roz had won the SP and Kat placed 2nd in SP, Roz would have won gold 3.0 to 3.6 even with Kat winning the LP. If Roz had placed 2nd in the SP, Kat would have won 3.2 to 3.4.

    At 1983 Worlds, Kat won the SP and Roz placed 4th. Leistner and Vodorezova were 2nd and 3rd, respectively.
     
  11. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Kat was so wonderful in the SP, I doubt that even a perfectly-clean skate by Roz could have won her the SPs segment. Kat's jumps were enormous -- not merely completed -- and her footwork to the Hungarian music was one of the best footwork sequences ever by a woman in an Olympics. On top of that, she had the musicality, charisma, speed...all of the elements that racked-up huge 'artistic impression' marks.
     
  12. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Probably true. And the judges were probably interested in keeping Witt and Roz close together so that the LP would be a real showdown, to keep the competition more interesting.

    Although, Chin had her fans who believe she should've won the SP portion [I'm not one of them] I would've had the SP - 1. Witt, 2. Chin, 3. Zayak, 4. Ivanova, 5. Kondrashova, 6. Sumners.

    Roz was only 4th in '83? Did she have a mistake?
     
  13. longingfornia

    longingfornia New Member

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  14. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Nice to read this thread and it's safe to say after discussing this event many times over the years, that most people agree that Zayak was hosed big time. It's so great that these threads have been around to show how great she actually was rather than the crap peddled by certain history books and Evy Scotvold inparticular :p
     
  15. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Elaine Zayak + Evy Scotvold = :confused:
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think these would have been my placings for each program:

    Short programs:

    1. Witt
    2. Chin
    3. Zayak
    4. Ivanova
    5. Sumners
    6. Kondrashova

    Long program:

    1. Chin
    2. Zayak
    3. Witt
    4. Sumners
    5. Kondrashova
    6. Ivanova

    I didnt think Witts long program was anything great. I had no problem with her winning the gold but if people think Sumners was overmarked I think Witt was just as much in the long program. She also popped some jumps and had some tight landings, and I found choreographically it was a hot mess somewhat. I thought the 5.9s for presentation were a joke.
     
  17. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    You need to watch that Fire on Ice documentary on US ladies skaters ;).
     
  18. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
  19. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    If you take into account Roz's waxel and the popped axel in the mid section then yes I would still give Kat the slight head up since Kat was essentially clean. I liked the second half of Roz's LP at Nationals. The 3toes looked quite solid there. If she had ended her Olympic LP strongly like that then she might have been able to sway at least one more judge to give her 1st place. Too bad she wimped out at Sarejevo. Dick Button reported that she had a perfect run through at the previous night practice session.
     
  20. pollyanna

    pollyanna Well-Known Member

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    Yes, she two-footed her toe loop.

    Scotvold is such a butthead. He didn't even mention that Elaine competed fabulous 3 salchows and 3 loops. Very few ladies of that era had jumps more difficult than 3 toes and 3 salchows. At least Evy acknowledged that Elaine could perform those 3 toes from all sorts of different entrances. How many other ladies then could complete 2 axel-3toes or 2 lutz-3 toes? I repeat, he's a butthead.

    Skatesindreams, THANK YOU for all these wonderful links.

    Elaine Zayak is one of my skating idols. :cheer2: I wonder if looking back now, those judges or any other USFSA or ISU officials admit to themselves that Elaine "got hosed."
     
  21. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. Will watch when the BF relaxes ;)

    LOL. You and I are dead on for the SP. The only difference being Sumners and Kondrashova flip-flopped. Why would you have put Sumners ahead of Kondrashova? Sumners had a mandatory deduction w/ the 2 footed 2x. Although, I remember Kondrashova had a near step-out or something on a jump, and wobbled pretty obviously on a spin. Maybe you called them even w/ a slight nod to Roz for her superior basics and choreography?

    Interesting that you put Witt behind Chin and Zayak in the LP. I have to think about what I'd do. Obviously, the LP would've been Witt and the 3 Americans in some form in the top 4
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I had Sumners over Kondrashova in the SP since even though Sumners put her foot down on the double axel and had a very shaky camel spin I thought Kondrashova struggled through almost all the technically elements and technically it was just a fairly weak performance. And artistically I dont find Annas short as interesting as her long which I absolutely loved except for all the inevitable missed jumps and overall tenativeness.

    I put Chin and Zayak over Witt in the LP since I dont like Witts LP choreography that much and I dont think she even gave a great performance. I find it surprising people are that surprised it was so close between Witt and Sumners. Witt also popped several jumps and gave a somewhat marred and unspectacular performance for which she was given inflated scores just as Sumners probably also was. Chin made a very good attempt on a triple flip and Zayak had more 4 successful triples which was the most.
     
  23. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Witt popped any jumps in her LP. She decided not to go for the 3flip and did a solid double instead. I don't think she had any plan to go for the 3loop either.
     
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    She popped the first triple salchow into a double. Dick Button also said the sequence that included a double flip had planned to have a triple of some sort. One of her double jumps it looked likes she stepped out of too.
     
  25. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    My first (vague) memory of Ivanova is at the 1988 Olympics. I remember thinking her skating dress was very pretty. Years later I watched her performances on youtube and I think she was rather avant garde. I liked her style. She was different, not the typical cookie cutter ice princess. I was saddened at the news of her death, horrified when I found it she was murdered. I'll always have a soft spot for Ivanova in my heart.

    Rest in peace Kira-alongside your twin sister. :(
     
  26. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    OK. I think Zayak actually had the most technically ambitious program jump-wise w/ 4 different types of triples [toe, toe walley, sal, loop]: including that split leap-3toe-2toe-2toe, a 3loop in the 2d half of the program, and entrances to most of her jumps. Witt and Sumners only had 2 different types. Chin 3 different types. I also think Zayak is the one skater who has held up really well over time, especially with the advent of CoP for which she would've been the best in this group
     
  27. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Witt's "dazzle"/beauty compensated for some of her faults, I suspect; at least in the minds of some.
     
  28. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't make too much of Scotvold's opinion of Zayak based on that clip, considering that it was obviously edited from a much longer interview. Who knows what else he said about her or anyone else? That's just the quote the producers chose to use.
     
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  29. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Oh, absolutely, even though, at that time, she had genuine solid elements. Also, let's remember that this was still at the height of the 'Cold War' and there was an unspoken feeling among officials that, even if all things were equal, a lady from the Socialist Orbit should take home the gold. The West already had two skating golds (Scott Hamilton and Torvill/Dean). The East had only Pairs (Valova/Vasiliev). Witt evened things out with her win in the Ladies.

    Had there been Code of Points then, it may have been different. Elaine would definitely have been higher in the SP and LP segments.
     
  30. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I think Chin would have benefited from CoP as well. I find it difficult to believe that any judge using CoP would have ranked Chin as low as eighth in PCS for her Short Program, as the Belgian judge did.

    Of course, if CoP had existed, then skaters would have tried to maximize their TES and PCS rather than their placement, and their programs would have been different.

    Here, for everyone's reference, are the judges' marks for the competition:

    Compulsory Figures
    Short Program
    Free Skating