1984 OLY Ladies Long Program

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by longingfornia, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    7,863
    Kat was so wonderful in the SP, I doubt that even a perfectly-clean skate by Roz could have won her the SPs segment. Kat's jumps were enormous -- not merely completed -- and her footwork to the Hungarian music was one of the best footwork sequences ever by a woman in an Olympics. On top of that, she had the musicality, charisma, speed...all of the elements that racked-up huge 'artistic impression' marks.
  2. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959

    Probably true. And the judges were probably interested in keeping Witt and Roz close together so that the LP would be a real showdown, to keep the competition more interesting.

    Although, Chin had her fans who believe she should've won the SP portion [I'm not one of them] I would've had the SP - 1. Witt, 2. Chin, 3. Zayak, 4. Ivanova, 5. Kondrashova, 6. Sumners.

    Roz was only 4th in '83? Did she have a mistake?
  3. longingfornia

    longingfornia New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2010
    Messages:
    61
  4. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,778
    Nice to read this thread and it's safe to say after discussing this event many times over the years, that most people agree that Zayak was hosed big time. It's so great that these threads have been around to show how great she actually was rather than the crap peddled by certain history books and Evy Scotvold inparticular :p
  5. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    Elaine Zayak + Evy Scotvold = :confused:
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I think these would have been my placings for each program:

    Short programs:

    1. Witt
    2. Chin
    3. Zayak
    4. Ivanova
    5. Sumners
    6. Kondrashova

    Long program:

    1. Chin
    2. Zayak
    3. Witt
    4. Sumners
    5. Kondrashova
    6. Ivanova

    I didnt think Witts long program was anything great. I had no problem with her winning the gold but if people think Sumners was overmarked I think Witt was just as much in the long program. She also popped some jumps and had some tight landings, and I found choreographically it was a hot mess somewhat. I thought the 5.9s for presentation were a joke.
  7. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,778
    You need to watch that Fire on Ice documentary on US ladies skaters ;).
  8. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
  9. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    9,814
    If you take into account Roz's waxel and the popped axel in the mid section then yes I would still give Kat the slight head up since Kat was essentially clean. I liked the second half of Roz's LP at Nationals. The 3toes looked quite solid there. If she had ended her Olympic LP strongly like that then she might have been able to sway at least one more judge to give her 1st place. Too bad she wimped out at Sarejevo. Dick Button reported that she had a perfect run through at the previous night practice session.
  10. pollyanna

    pollyanna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,954
    Yes, she two-footed her toe loop.

    Scotvold is such a butthead. He didn't even mention that Elaine competed fabulous 3 salchows and 3 loops. Very few ladies of that era had jumps more difficult than 3 toes and 3 salchows. At least Evy acknowledged that Elaine could perform those 3 toes from all sorts of different entrances. How many other ladies then could complete 2 axel-3toes or 2 lutz-3 toes? I repeat, he's a butthead.

    Skatesindreams, THANK YOU for all these wonderful links.

    Elaine Zayak is one of my skating idols. :cheer2: I wonder if looking back now, those judges or any other USFSA or ISU officials admit to themselves that Elaine "got hosed."
  11. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    Thanks. Will watch when the BF relaxes ;)

    LOL. You and I are dead on for the SP. The only difference being Sumners and Kondrashova flip-flopped. Why would you have put Sumners ahead of Kondrashova? Sumners had a mandatory deduction w/ the 2 footed 2x. Although, I remember Kondrashova had a near step-out or something on a jump, and wobbled pretty obviously on a spin. Maybe you called them even w/ a slight nod to Roz for her superior basics and choreography?

    Interesting that you put Witt behind Chin and Zayak in the LP. I have to think about what I'd do. Obviously, the LP would've been Witt and the 3 Americans in some form in the top 4
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319

    I had Sumners over Kondrashova in the SP since even though Sumners put her foot down on the double axel and had a very shaky camel spin I thought Kondrashova struggled through almost all the technically elements and technically it was just a fairly weak performance. And artistically I dont find Annas short as interesting as her long which I absolutely loved except for all the inevitable missed jumps and overall tenativeness.

    I put Chin and Zayak over Witt in the LP since I dont like Witts LP choreography that much and I dont think she even gave a great performance. I find it surprising people are that surprised it was so close between Witt and Sumners. Witt also popped several jumps and gave a somewhat marred and unspectacular performance for which she was given inflated scores just as Sumners probably also was. Chin made a very good attempt on a triple flip and Zayak had more 4 successful triples which was the most.
  13. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    9,814
    I don't think Witt popped any jumps in her LP. She decided not to go for the 3flip and did a solid double instead. I don't think she had any plan to go for the 3loop either.
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    She popped the first triple salchow into a double. Dick Button also said the sequence that included a double flip had planned to have a triple of some sort. One of her double jumps it looked likes she stepped out of too.
  15. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,725
    My first (vague) memory of Ivanova is at the 1988 Olympics. I remember thinking her skating dress was very pretty. Years later I watched her performances on youtube and I think she was rather avant garde. I liked her style. She was different, not the typical cookie cutter ice princess. I was saddened at the news of her death, horrified when I found it she was murdered. I'll always have a soft spot for Ivanova in my heart.

    Rest in peace Kira-alongside your twin sister. :(
  16. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    OK. I think Zayak actually had the most technically ambitious program jump-wise w/ 4 different types of triples [toe, toe walley, sal, loop]: including that split leap-3toe-2toe-2toe, a 3loop in the 2d half of the program, and entrances to most of her jumps. Witt and Sumners only had 2 different types. Chin 3 different types. I also think Zayak is the one skater who has held up really well over time, especially with the advent of CoP for which she would've been the best in this group
  17. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Witt's "dazzle"/beauty compensated for some of her faults, I suspect; at least in the minds of some.
  18. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,492
    I wouldn't make too much of Scotvold's opinion of Zayak based on that clip, considering that it was obviously edited from a much longer interview. Who knows what else he said about her or anyone else? That's just the quote the producers chose to use.
    pollyanna and (deleted member) like this.
  19. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Messages:
    7,863
    Oh, absolutely, even though, at that time, she had genuine solid elements. Also, let's remember that this was still at the height of the 'Cold War' and there was an unspoken feeling among officials that, even if all things were equal, a lady from the Socialist Orbit should take home the gold. The West already had two skating golds (Scott Hamilton and Torvill/Dean). The East had only Pairs (Valova/Vasiliev). Witt evened things out with her win in the Ladies.

    Had there been Code of Points then, it may have been different. Elaine would definitely have been higher in the SP and LP segments.
  20. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,535
    I think Chin would have benefited from CoP as well. I find it difficult to believe that any judge using CoP would have ranked Chin as low as eighth in PCS for her Short Program, as the Belgian judge did.

    Of course, if CoP had existed, then skaters would have tried to maximize their TES and PCS rather than their placement, and their programs would have been different.

    Here, for everyone's reference, are the judges' marks for the competition:

    Compulsory Figures
    Short Program
    Free Skating
  21. pollyanna

    pollyanna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,954
    I agree, but I also think her 2 lutz-3 toe combination helped a lot. That's one tough combination, and the only other skater I know of that could compete it back then was Zayak, and she did not attempt it here.

    True, gkelly, but I still think he's an arse. ;)
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  22. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,778
    ;) Yep, they were the only two. Dubravcic also did it at the 1980 Olympics but by 84 much of her jumping ability had been curtailed through puberty and the Zayak rule.

    That's another reason why I get so annoyed at the likes of Scotvold (yeah and the editors) and so many authors making out that all Zayak had was a triple toe. It was Dubravcic who would do like 5 triple toes in one LP, NOT Elaine and while Elaine did 4 at 1982 Worlds she did them from different entrances and transitions and in very difficult combos (3t walley steps 3twalley, 2z/3t, 2 splits into triple toe) while Dubravcic did them the same way all the way through. elaine actually had very balanced technical programs and you never got the impression she was doing the same element over and over. Before youtube, all you ever heard from documentaries and books was this same story and how that rule came about because Elaine supposedly kept doing the same triple jump all the time. Even as late as 1995, Christine Brennan told the world that Elaine was such a success in her comeback because hse landed a triple loop as an adult - something she couldn't do in her peak years. Erm yep ok love. :blah: Hello RESEARCH???? :rolleyes:
  23. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Am I the only one who thinks that Elaine deserved better than she received in 1994. too?
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    The reason Dubravcic hardly got any flak as the true originator of repeating triple toes is she wasnt even relevant enough for most people to care about. Zayak was a name so she was an easier target.
  25. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    17,986
    We had a commentator in Australia, Mike Gibson, who was covering the 84 Worlds and 88 Olympics. He made a number of comments in relation to Witt, many of them very sexist. He even tried to make out the reason why Witt beat Debi Thomas in the SP in 88 was due to the fact that Witt was better looking than Debi. He was saying this to Torvill and Dean who were commentating with him.

    The 84 Worlds coverage his co-commetator is a coach I know and she was kind of sitting their smiling at his comments whilst he was practially jerking himself off watching her.

    When I get some time one day, I am going to do a compilation of his comments and post them on Youtube.
  26. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    Enjoying all the Elaine Love :)

    Elaine did the 3loop cleanly at '84 Olys and '84 Worlds that I know of...
  27. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,778
    Elaine had a triple loop right from the get go at Worlds in 1980. Not that Brennan bothered to check that up or anything. Why let a little matter of a few videos get in the way of your hyperbole? :lol:
  28. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    Questions I had that anyone can comment on -

    If Elaine hadn't been injured at '83 Worlds, completed the comp and her programs were say, at least as strong as her '83 Nats programs, where would she have ultimately placed - threat for gold? medal? were her '83 Nats programs stronger than Leistner, Vodorezova? would she have been off the podium? She was defending world champ in '83. Would the judges have given her scores a small extra boost that Champions usually get?

    I remember Leistner and Vodorezova had scores in the mid 5's in the LP. I'm sure that Elaine's '83 Nats LP would've beaten those.

    Also would no injury and standing at '83 Worlds have boosted her in the Olympic season of '83 - '84? What influence?
  29. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    12,281
    Thanks so much for this link; never seen this before, was an interesting watch. I felt a bit sorry for Sumners; 84 was clearly a painful experience she has carried with her.
  30. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    I'd like to hear those; and see T and D's reaction.

    Here is: Elaine Zayak - 1983 U.S. Figure Skating Championships, LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6QUaaxMC70

    Dick and Peggy's comments give one the idea that TPTB had already decided to "push" Rosalynn, instead of Elaine.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  31. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    706
    What drama!!:drama::violin::watch:
  32. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    Yeah. The Roz v. Elaine situation was unique. Since then, I don't believe I've ever heard Dick & Peggy sing the praises of one skater at the US national level, then mostly diss her main challenger [but who knows]. Jeez. Sarah Hughes had issues as a skater and Peggy wouldn't shut up about how wonderful she was. Why did Elaine elicit so much disrespect?

    Elaine had half of a foot from a lawn mower accident, didn't have a politically well-connected coach [as discussed in this book I read 'Little Girls in pretty Boxes' - something like that], yet was still '79 World Jr. Champ, '80 US Olympic alternate, '81 Natl. Champ, '81 World Silver Medalist, '82 World Champ, '84 World Bronze Medalist, had the Zayak rule named after her. She probably would've medalled in '83 but for injury, so she would've been on the Worlds podium from '81 - '84 each time, and that beats Roz's or Tiffany's records
  33. pollyanna

    pollyanna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,954
    Very interesting. So Roz had 3 triples, a fall, and very weak spins, yet won the LP. Elaine had 6 triples, one of which was a touch down, and one of which was a loop, spins that were superior to Roz's, yet scored lower. I wonder who paid off those judges? ;)
  34. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,254
    I loved "Fire on Ice," have it on videotape, but it was painful to watch that again. Roz's coach should still get a big thump on the head for the way she acted during the Olympics. Yes, Roz is responsible for her own emotions, but her coach did everything to bring her down and nothing to bring her back up after the short program. Very, very sad.

    I also remember reading somewhere (I think it may have been "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes") that Elaine wanted to quit amateur skating after her World's win, but her coaches and parents pushed her to stay in the sport through the Olympics. She gained some weight, and her father took away her car and also ordered the rink cafe to sell her nothing but coffee, no food. She was miserable, and then the injury, and then we know the rest. Anyone else recall this? Elaine was a wonderful skater, I've met her as a coach, she is just delightful. She will always be the most memorable ladies skater we had during that time period in my book.
  35. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,778
    I've always wondered what occured for the USFSA to just drop Zayak like a hot potato. Maybe it was the fact that she could never be consistent in figures because of her childhood injury? Her placement in figures depended on which foot was drawn and if it was the wrong one for Elaine, no amount of politiking could save her. Plus Chin was in the wings and trying triple flips and triple axels in practice so maybe they thought they didn't need Zayak? I also wonder what influence, if any, the ABC team and Dick and Peggy inparticular had on the situation. All that said, there was absolutely no excuse for Elaine not winning the LP at this event. Utterly ridiculous result. :blah: I do love her slow sections to almost all her amatuer programs. They're a study in how to place great elements to really highlight the music. Love it :D
  36. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    9,814
    Aside from the obvious flip and flutz techniques that Sarah had, Sarah was a much more elegant skater than Elaine was. I liked Elaine, but IMO there was a heaviness to her skating and a lack of body awareness.
  37. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    12,281
    Would Witt have been so successful if she was butt-ugly?

    (or at least less supposedly stunning...)
  38. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,254
    Her looks and flirtatious manner certainly didn't hurt her, but Katarina's secret weapon was her competitiveness. As outlined in Fire and Ice - go to youtube and watch the followup to the earlier clip, part 7 covers the Kat/Debi rivalry - she wasn't the greatest skater ever, but she definitely was and remains the greatest COMPETITOR of all the ladies in history. She was supremely confident, and she knew exactly how to psych out her fellow competitors and make them nervous and unsure of themselves (despite the fact that she always played innocent and claimed none of her actions were deliberate). She would make up her own little routines to other skaters' music during practices, cut people off, and flirt with the reporters present to get all the attention for herself. I still remember her positioning herself by the boards after she skated her short program in Calgary in 1988 with her arms crossed, GLARING at Debi Thomas the entire time she skated her short.

    Dick Button once commented that Kat was an absolutely beautiful woman, but he "couldn't recall one memorable thing she did on the ice." That may sound harsh, but she frequently did skate less technically difficult programs than her competitors and often substituted flirtatiousness for actual skating; however, she also skated with power and confidence and rarely made mistakes. Compare that to both Debi and Roz who essentially gave up in their Olympic long programs by psyching themselves out (with a little help in the psych-out arena from Kat).
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  39. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,319
    I cant think of any event or medal Witt won she probably didnt deserve to other than her 87 NHK gold over Ito. Well some think she didnt deserve to win the 88 Worlds too but I am not sure who else did, maybe Manley.

    I also dont think the judges even cared about spins as a factor in scoring in the 80s.

    On another note it is amazing how much better Sumners got in figures placings in a year as well. She was 11th in figures at the 82 Worlds and 1st in 83.
  40. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    Witt's figures placing were crazy as well - '83 Worlds - 8th, '84 Worlds - 1st