1982 Worlds- which women could have done enough in long to win title realistically

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by chanunderrated, Jun 24, 2013.

Which women could realisticalness wise have done enough in long to win 1982 Worlds

This poll will close on Mar 20, 2016 at 9:35 PM.
  1. Cotrill (beat Witt in long)

    24.2%
  2. Thompson (beat Zayak in long)

    42.4%
  3. Witt (beat Zayak in long)

    81.8%
  4. Kristofics Binder (beat Leisnter in long)

    54.5%
  5. Wegelius (beat Binder in long)

    18.2%
  6. Vodorezova (beat Leistner in long)

    51.5%
  7. none of them could have

    18.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    A friend explained the factored points to me from the 1982 Worlds. Apparently if all else remained the same this is what certain people would have had to do to win overall:

    Thompson- place 1st in long skate over Zayak
    Witt- place 1st in long skate over Zayak
    Cotrill- place 2nd in long skate over Witt
    Kristofics Binder- placed 3rd in long skate over Leistner
    Vodorozeva- placed 3rd in long skate over Leistner
    Wegelius- placed 4th in long skate over Kristofics Binder

    Assuming everyone else skated the same as they did, which of these skaters realistically could have skated well enough to achieve these long program placings to win the World title over Zayak overall. I didnt see Leistner and Kristofics full skates so dont know how strong they were or how many triples they landed. Vodorezova was a shadow of her younger self in freestyle, but still good enough to maybe do 3 triples on a good day which would probably be enough for 3rd over immature Leistner, no matter how many triples she did. So I would say for her yes. I would guess for Witt yes it was possible at her best. Kristofics 3rd in long and Wegulius 4th in long I am going to guess yes was possible for them, but I dont really know much about their skating. For Thompson and Cotrill I would say no those placements were not possible for them.
     
  2. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Also why were many of these women not even at the 1982 Worlds. Did many of them just quit. Isnt that unusual in the middle of a quad. What happened to Vodorezova at the 84 Olympics. She skated like the worst I ever saw her, even in her weaker free skater second career:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_YA7ZDQZ7w
     
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Kay Thomson, with her 3Lz and amazing spins, could have rightfully overtaken Zayak and Witt if she skated well in the freeskate, but she didn't.
     
  4. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I thought the 3Lz was her only triple though. Would that have been enough to give her the value in judges eyes to compensate for alot of triples, but not as difficult as the 3lz. She might have had one more triple she sometimes did, but I dont remember what it was now. I remember her spins though, she must have been Swiss born.
     
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Quality and difficulty could trump quantity back then.
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Cottrill, Vodorezova, Witt, and Kristofics Binder all could have. Thomson not sure. Wegelius definitely no. Even 4th in the free program was out of her reach since she wasnt capable of landing the triple salchow she needed to place 4th in the free. She has never landed a triple in competition ever.
     
  7. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Kay Thomson was 6th in figures and 6th in the SP to Zayak's 4th in figures and 10th in the SP.
     
  8. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I would say Vodorezova and Witt for sure. Witt had the triple flip, although I think she abondoned it by Sarajevo.
     
  9. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Witt and Vodorezova for sure. Not sure about the others. I thought Vodorezova deserved 2nd in the long program even with the skate she gave but the judges lowballed her and put her 8th behind women who also did only 1 triple or did none. I think the put her down on purpose so she wouldnt win overall.
     
  10. kukkura

    kukkura Member

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4JdMvDAuKx8#t=175s

    Here the commentators discuss Wegelius' triples and wonder why she fails to land them in major competitions. Ironically, she landed an iffy triple in Helsinki worlds gala, which I guess was her farewell skate as an amateur. I think she could have placed 4th with a clean LP including the triple salchow, after all she was 5th in the SP.
     
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    How many triples did Binder land? Since if she landed only 1 then maybe Wegelius could have placed 4th in the long to win with only 1 triple. However if Binder landed 2 or 3 it would have been hard to place 4th over her in the long with only 1. At the least she would have had to land a clean triple salchow, then not mess up any of the doubles she did.
     
  12. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting study of the oddities of the ordinals systems. It was unusual in that so many good free skaters did poorly in either figures or the SP, leaving a lot more skaters than usual bunched at the top within within a point or few points of each other after the SP.

    After the SP, the standings of the skaters mentioned in the poll were
    Wegelius 3.2 ordinals
    Vedorezova 4.2
    Kristofics-Binder 4.2
    Cottrill 5
    Witt 5.8
    Thompson 6
    Zayak 6.4
    Leistner 9.2

    So, any of the top 3 could have won simply by winning the FS. Cottrill needed to win the FS and have anybody but Wegelius place 2nd. Witt and Thompson each needed to win the FS and have Wegelus place 4th or worse while another skater placed second pushing Ved. and K-B to 3rd or worse. Zayak needed to win the FS with Cottrill no better than 3rd, Ved and K-B fourth or worse and Wegelius 5th or worse.

    As it was the FS placements for these skaters were
    Wegelius 12th
    Vedorezova 8
    Kristofics-Binder 4
    Cottrill 17
    Witt 2
    Thompson 9
    Zayak 1
    Leistner 3
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  13. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Cottrill had the content but didn't deliver. She attempted flip, loop, sal and toe - the most difficult LP attempted by a woman in senior competition to that date that I had seen. (Ito was already out-jumping them in Juniors). Maybe Biellmann in '76 if the stories are true. Anyway, trouble was she under-rotated, double-footed and flipped out of just about every jump and the judges nailed her for it :(
     
  14. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Why is Dick picking apart her perfectly adequate double lutz? :lol: Does anyone know what happened to her? She looks like she had some major problem leading to this. I like her so much better than Ivanova.
     
  15. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    There was a Canadian lady in the 80s who did one triple, and this was a 3Lz?
     
  16. falling_dance

    falling_dance D. Murakami's Newest Fan

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  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    She had some interesting spin variations but Thomson needed to get a professional choreographer. As Peggy would say--back before she decided her job was to pretend to be nice--that looked very sloppy.
     
  18. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I can't figure out who you are talking about when you say "these women". I only see one post in this thread above yours and it is talking about women who did skate at 1982 Worlds. :confused:

    Re quitting mid-quad - It was pretty usual for skaters to retire after the Olympic year, but it was not uncommon for skaters just off the podium or perennial silver medalists to hang around one more year in hopes of snagging a medal or a title after the skaters ahead of them retired and before the next generation improved to pass them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
  19. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Was Sandra Bezic not good enough for her? :lol:
     
  20. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    No one - Elaine was queen
     
  21. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I guess not. She maybe couldn't be helped. :lol:
     
  22. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    She was Zueen! lol.

    It was so interesting to see that the U.S. was so willing to let her go and rally around Sumners. Everything did have to align just right for her to win that year, but she DID win.
     
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thus my respect for her - she medalled at every Worlds she competed in the 81 - 84 quadrennial, including winning '82 Worlds, without any real support from the USFSA and a deformed foot. Also, she pushed the envelope in jumping and actually has a rule named after her which is used to this day. Ironically, she has more of a legacy in the sport (IMO) than her peers at the time, Sumners and Chin.
     
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Chin wasnt around long enough to garner any sort of legacy, other than yet another cautionary note for crazy skating moms and falling stars falling down to earth fast, but pretty much everyone who remembers her skating in 84 adores her and thinks she was probably the best free skater in the World that year. Sadly that was the only year she would ever be at that level, either before or after.
     
  25. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    I remember watching 84 Worlds, and hearing the announcers talking about how much she was needed to place well. She was needed to assure spots for the next year. Sumners and Chin did not go that year.
     
  26. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    And what a final great performance she gave at 84 worlds.
     
  27. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    If the poll starter is accurate in the long program placings needed to win overall than Witt, Vodorezova, Kristofics Binder obviously had a chance to win the gold over Zayak overall. I cant believe Vodorezova even past her prime, and Kristofics Binders werent atleast capable of beating Leistner in the long unless Leistner skated a blinder that day.

    Cotrill had a triple lutz and 4 different types of triples then. Wouldnt the judges have had to atleast place her over Witt in the long program with Witt's mistakes that day then, which according to poll starter would win her gold overall?

    Thomson no way. Not a big enough name, and only 2 triples even if the hardest two. In the short she was screwed in the marks so that already shows the judges would have never given her such marks to win the long program even if she landed both triple lutz and triple flip.

    Wegelius sucks so I doubt she could have done a performance to beat Binder in the long to win gold over Zayak overall, unless Binder did a really bad long, but if she was 4th she probably was decent that night.
     
  28. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Cotrill was very inconsistent.
    It was very close between Binder and Leistner. Leistner and Sumners actually did poorly in figures but outskated Thompson, Wegelius, Cotrill and Vodorezova in the free program.
     
  29. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    One of the more interesting perspectives is that Kristofics-Binder in retrospect only needed to finish 6th in the SP to win gold, and she only placed 9th in the segment - it must have been quite the silly error considering that the required combination needed a double flip, so most of the ladies did double flip-double toe and double-flip double loop (Witt and Zayak attempted double flip-triple toe, Witt successful, Zayak not successful).
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kristofics Binder had been clean in the short at the 81 Worlds and placed something like 6th in the short while Zayak with a fall and Biellmann with a double-double combo had been 2nd and 3rd, so who knows if she even make a mistake to place that low. Perhaps not. I always wondered how the shorts were skated at the 81 and 82 Worlds other than the few I heard about or saw since many of the placings are WTF. One that is funny is Vodorezova botching her planned double flip-double toe combo, doing a double flip-single toe and still being 3rd in the short while Zayak falling on her much harder triple toe combo is way down in 10th. Yet in the long program Vodorezova seems very harshly marked compared to some of the others and what they did, making it even more perplexing. Then you have Sumners 11th in figures when she was 1st in figures the next year.