1982 Worlds- which women could have done enough in long to win title realistically

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by chanunderrated, Jun 24, 2013.

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Which women could realisticalness wise have done enough in long to win 1982 Worlds

This poll will close on Mar 20, 2016 at 9:35 PM.
  1. Cotrill (beat Witt in long)

    24.2%
  2. Thompson (beat Zayak in long)

    42.4%
  3. Witt (beat Zayak in long)

    81.8%
  4. Kristofics Binder (beat Leisnter in long)

    54.5%
  5. Wegelius (beat Binder in long)

    18.2%
  6. Vodorezova (beat Leistner in long)

    51.5%
  7. none of them could have

    18.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    A friend explained the factored points to me from the 1982 Worlds. Apparently if all else remained the same this is what certain people would have had to do to win overall:

    Thompson- place 1st in long skate over Zayak
    Witt- place 1st in long skate over Zayak
    Cotrill- place 2nd in long skate over Witt
    Kristofics Binder- placed 3rd in long skate over Leistner
    Vodorozeva- placed 3rd in long skate over Leistner
    Wegelius- placed 4th in long skate over Kristofics Binder

    Assuming everyone else skated the same as they did, which of these skaters realistically could have skated well enough to achieve these long program placings to win the World title over Zayak overall. I didnt see Leistner and Kristofics full skates so dont know how strong they were or how many triples they landed. Vodorezova was a shadow of her younger self in freestyle, but still good enough to maybe do 3 triples on a good day which would probably be enough for 3rd over immature Leistner, no matter how many triples she did. So I would say for her yes. I would guess for Witt yes it was possible at her best. Kristofics 3rd in long and Wegulius 4th in long I am going to guess yes was possible for them, but I dont really know much about their skating. For Thompson and Cotrill I would say no those placements were not possible for them.
  2. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Also why were many of these women not even at the 1982 Worlds. Did many of them just quit. Isnt that unusual in the middle of a quad. What happened to Vodorezova at the 84 Olympics. She skated like the worst I ever saw her, even in her weaker free skater second career:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_YA7ZDQZ7w
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Kay Thomson, with her 3Lz and amazing spins, could have rightfully overtaken Zayak and Witt if she skated well in the freeskate, but she didn't.
  4. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I thought the 3Lz was her only triple though. Would that have been enough to give her the value in judges eyes to compensate for alot of triples, but not as difficult as the 3lz. She might have had one more triple she sometimes did, but I dont remember what it was now. I remember her spins though, she must have been Swiss born.
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Quality and difficulty could trump quantity back then.
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Cottrill, Vodorezova, Witt, and Kristofics Binder all could have. Thomson not sure. Wegelius definitely no. Even 4th in the free program was out of her reach since she wasnt capable of landing the triple salchow she needed to place 4th in the free. She has never landed a triple in competition ever.
  7. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Kay Thomson was 6th in figures and 6th in the SP to Zayak's 4th in figures and 10th in the SP.
  8. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I would say Vodorezova and Witt for sure. Witt had the triple flip, although I think she abondoned it by Sarajevo.
  9. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Witt and Vodorezova for sure. Not sure about the others. I thought Vodorezova deserved 2nd in the long program even with the skate she gave but the judges lowballed her and put her 8th behind women who also did only 1 triple or did none. I think the put her down on purpose so she wouldnt win overall.
  10. kukkura

    kukkura Member

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4JdMvDAuKx8#t=175s

    Here the commentators discuss Wegelius' triples and wonder why she fails to land them in major competitions. Ironically, she landed an iffy triple in Helsinki worlds gala, which I guess was her farewell skate as an amateur. I think she could have placed 4th with a clean LP including the triple salchow, after all she was 5th in the SP.
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    How many triples did Binder land? Since if she landed only 1 then maybe Wegelius could have placed 4th in the long to win with only 1 triple. However if Binder landed 2 or 3 it would have been hard to place 4th over her in the long with only 1. At the least she would have had to land a clean triple salchow, then not mess up any of the doubles she did.
  12. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting study of the oddities of the ordinals systems. It was unusual in that so many good free skaters did poorly in either figures or the SP, leaving a lot more skaters than usual bunched at the top within within a point or few points of each other after the SP.

    After the SP, the standings of the skaters mentioned in the poll were
    Wegelius 3.2 ordinals
    Vedorezova 4.2
    Kristofics-Binder 4.2
    Cottrill 5
    Witt 5.8
    Thompson 6
    Zayak 6.4
    Leistner 9.2

    So, any of the top 3 could have won simply by winning the FS. Cottrill needed to win the FS and have anybody but Wegelius place 2nd. Witt and Thompson each needed to win the FS and have Wegelus place 4th or worse while another skater placed second pushing Ved. and K-B to 3rd or worse. Zayak needed to win the FS with Cottrill no better than 3rd, Ved and K-B fourth or worse and Wegelius 5th or worse.

    As it was the FS placements for these skaters were
    Wegelius 12th
    Vedorezova 8
    Kristofics-Binder 4
    Cottrill 17
    Witt 2
    Thompson 9
    Zayak 1
    Leistner 3
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  13. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Cottrill had the content but didn't deliver. She attempted flip, loop, sal and toe - the most difficult LP attempted by a woman in senior competition to that date that I had seen. (Ito was already out-jumping them in Juniors). Maybe Biellmann in '76 if the stories are true. Anyway, trouble was she under-rotated, double-footed and flipped out of just about every jump and the judges nailed her for it :(
  14. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Why is Dick picking apart her perfectly adequate double lutz? :lol: Does anyone know what happened to her? She looks like she had some major problem leading to this. I like her so much better than Ivanova.
  15. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    There was a Canadian lady in the 80s who did one triple, and this was a 3Lz?
  16. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    She had some interesting spin variations but Thomson needed to get a professional choreographer. As Peggy would say--back before she decided her job was to pretend to be nice--that looked very sloppy.
  18. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I can't figure out who you are talking about when you say "these women". I only see one post in this thread above yours and it is talking about women who did skate at 1982 Worlds. :confused:

    Re quitting mid-quad - It was pretty usual for skaters to retire after the Olympic year, but it was not uncommon for skaters just off the podium or perennial silver medalists to hang around one more year in hopes of snagging a medal or a title after the skaters ahead of them retired and before the next generation improved to pass them.
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
  19. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Was Sandra Bezic not good enough for her? :lol:
  20. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    No one - Elaine was queen
  21. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I guess not. She maybe couldn't be helped. :lol:
  22. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    She was Zueen! lol.

    It was so interesting to see that the U.S. was so willing to let her go and rally around Sumners. Everything did have to align just right for her to win that year, but she DID win.
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thus my respect for her - she medalled at every Worlds she competed in the 81 - 84 quadrennial, including winning '82 Worlds, without any real support from the USFSA and a deformed foot. Also, she pushed the envelope in jumping and actually has a rule named after her which is used to this day. Ironically, she has more of a legacy in the sport (IMO) than her peers at the time, Sumners and Chin.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Chin wasnt around long enough to garner any sort of legacy, other than yet another cautionary note for crazy skating moms and falling stars falling down to earth fast, but pretty much everyone who remembers her skating in 84 adores her and thinks she was probably the best free skater in the World that year. Sadly that was the only year she would ever be at that level, either before or after.
  25. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    I remember watching 84 Worlds, and hearing the announcers talking about how much she was needed to place well. She was needed to assure spots for the next year. Sumners and Chin did not go that year.
  26. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    And what a final great performance she gave at 84 worlds.
  27. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    If the poll starter is accurate in the long program placings needed to win overall than Witt, Vodorezova, Kristofics Binder obviously had a chance to win the gold over Zayak overall. I cant believe Vodorezova even past her prime, and Kristofics Binders werent atleast capable of beating Leistner in the long unless Leistner skated a blinder that day.

    Cotrill had a triple lutz and 4 different types of triples then. Wouldnt the judges have had to atleast place her over Witt in the long program with Witt's mistakes that day then, which according to poll starter would win her gold overall?

    Thomson no way. Not a big enough name, and only 2 triples even if the hardest two. In the short she was screwed in the marks so that already shows the judges would have never given her such marks to win the long program even if she landed both triple lutz and triple flip.

    Wegelius sucks so I doubt she could have done a performance to beat Binder in the long to win gold over Zayak overall, unless Binder did a really bad long, but if she was 4th she probably was decent that night.
  28. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Cotrill was very inconsistent.
    It was very close between Binder and Leistner. Leistner and Sumners actually did poorly in figures but outskated Thompson, Wegelius, Cotrill and Vodorezova in the free program.
  29. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    One of the more interesting perspectives is that Kristofics-Binder in retrospect only needed to finish 6th in the SP to win gold, and she only placed 9th in the segment - it must have been quite the silly error considering that the required combination needed a double flip, so most of the ladies did double flip-double toe and double-flip double loop (Witt and Zayak attempted double flip-triple toe, Witt successful, Zayak not successful).
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kristofics Binder had been clean in the short at the 81 Worlds and placed something like 6th in the short while Zayak with a fall and Biellmann with a double-double combo had been 2nd and 3rd, so who knows if she even make a mistake to place that low. Perhaps not. I always wondered how the shorts were skated at the 81 and 82 Worlds other than the few I heard about or saw since many of the placings are WTF. One that is funny is Vodorezova botching her planned double flip-double toe combo, doing a double flip-single toe and still being 3rd in the short while Zayak falling on her much harder triple toe combo is way down in 10th. Yet in the long program Vodorezova seems very harshly marked compared to some of the others and what they did, making it even more perplexing. Then you have Sumners 11th in figures when she was 1st in figures the next year.
  31. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    It's easy to say that figures judging was a joke, but I think, more often than not, it was on the up and up.

    My guess is that Roz worked her ass off on figures and skated better the next year. Midori Ito botched a figure in 1990 and it put her in 10th, costing her the world title. Caryn Kadavy talks about how she was 4th after the first figure in Calgary, but that her second figure was a lot weaker and she ended up in 7th. Tara Lipinski was scored 11th in the '96 Worlds free skate and 1st the next year.

    As someone who competed figures, I can safely say that you can be great at one competition and totally botch the next one. They take so much more steadiness and control than free skating and if you're nervous at all, you're screwed.
  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Still the 1981-1984 quad is the most fascinating in the history of ladies skating IMO. Just that someone would start a thread and poll like this sums it up, what other Worlds would anyone make a poll like this for. The skating and skaters were unpredictable and varying in their strengths and consistency, many skaters unexpectedly retired or emerged mid or late quad, and the judging was often as erratic as the women skaters themselves. The standings for the 1982 Worlds dont look like a competition but more like a lotto board:

    Ladies[edit]
    Rank Name Nation CP SP FS SP+FS Points Total
    1 Elaine Zayak United States 4 10 1 3 7.4
    2 Katarina Witt East Germany 9 1 2 1 7.8
    3 Claudia Kristofics-Binder Austria 1 9 4 5 8.2
    4 Claudia Leistner West Germany 14 2 3 2 12.2
    5 Elena Vodorezova Soviet Union 5 3 8 7 12.2
    6 Rosalynn Sumners United States 11 4 5 4 13.2
    7 Vikki de Vries United States 8 7 6 6 13.6
    8 Kay Thomson Canada 6 6 9 9 15.0
    9 Kristiina Wegelius Finland 2 5 12 10 15.2
    10 Deborah Cottrill United Kingdom 3 8 17 13 22.0
    11 Carola Paul East Germany 13 12 10 11 22.6
    12 Janina Wirth East Germany 12 13 11 12 23.4
    13 Elizabeth Manley Canada 23 11 7 8 25.2
    14 Sanda Dubravčić Yugoslavia 10 14 19 18 30.6
    15 Manuela Ruben West Germany 18 19 13 14 31.4
    16 Sandra Cariboni Switzerland 15 20 16 17 33.0
    17 Karen Wood United Kingdom 22 18 14 15 34.4
    18 Sonja Stanek Austria 7 15 25 21 35.2



    It is possible Sumners really did improve that much in figures in a year. However a different example is someone mentioning on another thread that Zayak and her coaches knew her figures were worth about 7th place. When she was in favor, like at these Worlds and 1981, she was possibly even held up and put 4th or 3rd in figures. However when she was out of favor around Sarajevo she was now 13th in figures.

    Another example is Tiffany Chin who missed a medal in Sarajevo due to a low 12th place in figures despite finishing 2nd in the combined free skating (ahead of Sumners), but next year at Worlds with Sumners gone and now U.S #1 and big hope for gold was 2nd in figures. Witt who was 3rd in figures at both events had been 9 places above her in figures in Sarajevo and now was 1 place behind her. Chin said in an interview with Jenny Kirk recently that she found it funny since she actually felt her figures hadnt improved at all.
  33. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    The fourth numbers is this table (SP+FS) should be ignored. In 1982, results were based on
    CP*.6 + SP*.4 + FS.

    The SP+FS calculation was not added in again and is not really relevant to the "who could have won" conversation.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
  34. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I can't find video of Cottrill's 1982 FS, but here is her clean skate from 1981 Worlds:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG-eRWpboDg

    Her jump elements were 3S, 3Lp, 2A, 2F, 2F-2Lp, 3T, 2F-2T, 2A, 2L-2L, Split F-2T-HalfLp-2S.
    That put her 4th in the FS and 4th overall.

    I'm not sure what it would have taken in 82 for the judges to put her above Witt. Here is Witt's FS from 81, good for second:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLuhzIyma0
    Her jumps: 2Lz-3T, 2A, 3F, 2S, 2Lp, 2A, 3T, 2S, SplitF-3T
    (I want to add the caveat that I find it really hard to count rotations with fuzzy old Youtube video.)

    To me, Witt's skating is in a whole other class. She gets so much more run from her blade and the program as a whole felt much more balanced and complete. I think it entirely possible the judges would place a clean Cottrill behind Witt and a few other top skaters even if they made errors.
  35. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    In the 80-83 period Witt was low in figures, but performing very strong in the freeskating portions. What happened to Cottrill - she vanished from the picture around 82/83 like Wegalius and Binders.
  36. matti

    matti Active Member

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    Yeah, but the so called "small medals" were awarded though. Katarina Witt was the "World free skating champion" in 1982. Likewise Kristofics-Binder, Wegelius and Cottrill were medallists in the compulsory figures competition that year.
  37. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    Someone needs to create a Wikipedia page for "World free skating champions". :COP:
  38. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Was anyone else planning 6 triples like Zayak?
  39. matti

    matti Active Member

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    Definitely! :)

    Ladies' "World figure skating Champions" 1969-1990

    1969 Beatrix Schuba
    1970 Beatrix Schuba
    1971 Beatrix Schuba
    1972 Beatrix Schuba
    1973 Karen Magnusen
    1974 Karin Iten
    1975 Dianne de Leeuw
    1976 Isabel de Navarre
    1977 Anett Pötzsch
    1978 Anett Pötzsch
    1979 Anett Pötzsch
    1980 Anett Pötzchh
    1981 Claudia Kristofics-Binder
    1982 Claudia Kristofics-Binder
    1983 Rosalynn Sumners
    1984 Katarina Witt
    1985 Kira Ivanova
    1986 Kira Ivanova
    1987 Kira Ivanova
    1988 Katarina Witt
    1989 Claudia Leistner
    1990 Jill Trenary

    Ladies' "World free skating Champions" 1969-1990

    1969 Gabriele Seyfert
    1970 Gabriele Seyfert
    1971 Janet Lynn
    1972 Janet Lynn
    1973 Karen Magnusen
    1974 Christine Errath/Dorothy Hamill (?)
    1975 Dianne de Leeuw
    1976 Dorothy Hamill
    1977 Linda Fratianne
    1978 Linda Fratianne
    1979 Linda Fratianne
    1980 Linda Fratianne
    1981 Denise Biellmann
    1982 Katarina Witt
    1983 Katarina Witt
    1984 Katarina Witt
    1985 Katarina Witt
    1986 Debi Thomas
    1987 Katarina Witt
    1988 Katarina Witt
    1989 Midori Ito
    1990 Midori Ito
  40. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    It would have been Hamill since she won the freeskate. (First in FS, 2nd in SP beats second in FS, 1st in SP.)