Royalty Thread #7: Do They Get Frequent Flier Miles?

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Zemgirl said:
Nobody walked Camilla down the aisle when she married Charles. And she looked amazing.
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UM............really? I think that walk down the isle should be reserved for your first wedding. After all, weren't you already "given away"?
 
Can we take the wedding chat to the Prince Harry engaged thread now? I'm not laying down the law, just makes things easier :)
 
SHARPIE said:
Can we take the wedding chat to the Prince Harry engaged thread now? I'm not laying down the law, just makes things easier :)
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Will do. Any chance we can change the title to Harry and Meghan's Wedding chat or something like that :)
 
once_upon said:
What about a total break from tradition and Meghan and Harry walk into the church and down the aisle together? Support each other down that long aisle and neither is given away but a couple from beginning to end of ceremony. And no one gives the bride to Harry, they give themselves to each other.
Not traditional. Wild idea I know.
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I digress, but want to say that I hate that brides are still 'given away' today in the western world. The reason being that this suggests a woman is property - generally the property of the father until he gives her away to her new 'master', her husband.

I understand that being given away is a tradition that many people find beautiful. But, I have an issue with people being blindsided by that particular tradition.
 
Back in 1984 when my brother got married - in a catholic church.
He walked down the aisle with my parents.
then the bridal party - bridesmaids, best man, maid of honor and groomsman
then my sister in law with both her parents.
It was very nice.
 
I walked myself down the aisle almost 30 years ago. There was no way either of my parents deserved to accompany me, and since they rejected me as a child I was certainly not theirs to "give away".
 
Japanfan said:
I digress, but want to say that I hate that brides are still 'given away' today in the western world. The reason being that this suggests a woman is property - generally the property of the father until he gives her away to her new 'master', her husband.
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Only if you read it that way.

I think some fathers look forward to this moment, because they are often far less involved in weddings than mothers, who participate more in planning, showers etc. It's their chance to participate in a meaningful way and be there for their daughters.

For some women, it's symbolic. Even if they've been with their groom for many years, it's a time to reflect on your relationship with your father, perhaps as your hero, your protector, someone you measured all other men by. A chance to say thanks Dad, I'll be OK now, because I've found someone as great as you.

I got married at city hall, but had I done it at a church, I would have absolutely wanted my dad to walk me down the aisle, and it would have had nothing to do with anyone owning me or giving me or taking me. Can't imagine him or my husband thinking that either, no anyone else who knows us.
 
Japanfan said:
I digress, but want to say that I hate that brides are still 'given away' today in the western world. The reason being that this suggests a woman is property - generally the property of the father until he gives her away to her new 'master', her husband.

I understand that being given away is a tradition that many people find beautiful. But, I have an issue with people being blindsided by that particular tradition.
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This is why I prefer the term 'escorted' versus 'given away'. The tradition is unlikely to go away but that is the phrase I will use when I get married. I am also excluding the 'who giveth this woman away' bit from the officiant too.
 
Sasha'sSpins said:
This is why I prefer the term 'escorted' versus 'given away'. The tradition is unlikely to go away but that is the phrase I will use when I get married. I am also excluding the 'who giveth this woman away' bit from the officiant too.
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That's basically my plan, although I'll just say that my father is walking me down the aisle, rather than escorted.
 
smurfy said:
Back in 1984 when my brother got married - in a catholic church.
He walked down the aisle with my parents.
then the bridal party - bridesmaids, best man, maid of honor and groomsman
then my sister in law with both her parents.
It was very nice.
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There are several options for how to do the bridal procession in a Catholic wedding mass. That is one of them. The more traditional option is as well. You can also have the entire bridal party enter as part of a traditional mass processional led by the cross-bearer and ended with the priest.

The Catholic wedding has no "giving away" moment--that whole thing I've seen in a million Protestant and a few secular weddings where the officiant asks "who gives this woman". It could, quite literally, be a reason for annulment if included because the validity of the marriage sacrament is based on both parties willingly making the vows of their own accord and with a full understanding of the commitment. If the bride is "given" to the groom in any fashion it may indicate she is not making her own choice. Brides have the option of having someone escort them down the aisle but it is not required and is not to be considered her being "given away".
 
The more i think about it the more troubling I find the father walking down the aisle. Because even though we might call it something else, it comes from the idea of giving away property. I also find comments men make about their daughters not being allowed to date, that they know what all guys want, that they somehow should be a protector of their daughter’s virtue troubling and offensive even when said as a “joke.” In a perfect world, the idea that a father may protect his daughter is okay, because in a perfect world girls would be brought up with complete and total agency over their body. The reality is they aren’t. There are still so many accepted activities and rules which diminish girls. Just look at the number of FB posts about girls being sent home from school because they dare to wear shorts or spaghetti straps (yet boys regularly remove their shirts in PE on a hot day.)

My dad walked me down the aisle. I was young and didn’t think anything of it other than it wasn’t a nice tradition. The older I get, the more intolerant I get of all the little, seemingly benign stuff, that add to the massive wall designed to keep women in their place.
 
mag said:
The more i think about it the more troubling I find the father walking down the aisle. Because even though we might call it something else, it comes from the idea of giving away property. I also find comments men make about their daughters not being allowed to date, that they know what all guys want, that they somehow should be a protector of their daughter’s virtue troubling and offensive even when said as a “joke.” In a perfect world, the idea that a father may protect his daughter is okay, because in a perfect world girls would be brought up with complete and total agency over their body. The reality is they aren’t. There are still so many accepted activities and rules which diminish girls. Just look at the number of FB posts about girls being sent home from school because they dare to wear shorts or spaghetti straps (yet boys regularly remove their shirts in PE on a hot day.)

My dad walked me down the aisle. I was young and didn’t think anything of it other than it wasn’t a nice tradition. The older I get, the more intolerant I get of all the little, seemingly benign stuff, that add to the massive wall designed to keep women in their place.
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It may come from a negative place, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing for people to do. It means different things for different people.

White dresses used to symbolize purity, which is a whole concept I don't like, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't wear a white dress if I want, just because of where the idea comes from.

I want to have my father walk me down the isle. And you what, no matter where it comes from originally, that actually has nothing to do with "giving me away" or me being his property. That is very far from the relationship I have with my father, and it wouldn't reinforce anything other than the fact that we are very close. If you aren't having the "who gives this woman" thing said, it just doesn't have to mean that.

On a related note, I gave my father semi-joking instructions (this was brought on by seeing this situation in a TV show) that if anyone ever asked his permission to propose/marry me, that he could just say no because no one who actually knew me would ever think that I'd be okay with them asking my dad, or even both parents.
 
Jenny said:
I think some fathers look forward to this moment, because they are often far less involved in weddings than mothers, who participate more in planning, showers etc. It's their chance to participate in a meaningful way and be there for their daughters.
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This is part of what I meant when I said it was a tradition.

it's a time to reflect on your relationship with your father, perhaps as your hero, your protector, someone you measured all other men by. A chance to say thanks Dad, I'll be OK now, because I've found someone as great as you.
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Must be wonderful to have or have had a dad like that. :(:(:(

I had a pagan wedding in the mountains and we were married by a new age minister. A small group of guests formed a circle around us, and we handfasted.
 
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RoseRed said:
I want to have my father walk me down the isle. And you what, no matter where it comes from originally, that actually has nothing to do with "giving me away" or me being his property. That is very far from the relationship I have with my father, and it wouldn't reinforce anything other than the fact that we are very close. If you aren't having the "who gives this woman" thing said, it just doesn't have to mean that.
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So what is the significance of having your father walk you down the aisle, then?

And why just your father? Why not your mother as well?
 
It had been announced that Prince Charles will walk the last half of the aisle with Meghan (apparently she will enter with her bridesmaids and page boys.) Now this isn’t what I would choose if it was me, but all the negative comments I have read on FB really miss the point. It is Meghan’s choice and that is the important bit. This is what she wants and hats off to Charles; he said something to the effect that it is a lovely way to welcome her to the family.
 
Sasha'sSpins said:
This is why I prefer the term 'escorted' versus 'given away'. The tradition is unlikely to go away but that is the phrase I will use when I get married. I am also excluding the 'who giveth this woman away' bit from the officiant too.
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Page 35 and this is the first time I've looked at this thread. Since this subject is not about the royals, but fathers walking brides down the aisle.......I don't see how people see this as giving away property. It just seems like a good tradition to have any male family member, or mother if no male is available, or both parents, depending on the closeness of the family, walk the bride down the aisle. If there is no father and an uncle does it, he is not giving away property.

Back in the day, women would have been living at home till they got married. It's more like she was leaving the nest to start a new nest. If a woman has been living with her future husband already, she's not being given away, just escorted down the aisle. In the past 30 years, I've never been to a wedding where they said the "who gives this woman" thing.

There's the father-daughter dance. Is that some sort of ownership significance or just a father and daughter dancing together.

My mom's dad died when she was 17. I have no idea who, if anyone, walked her and her three younger sisters down the aisle, all in the Catholic church in the 50's. I'll have to ask the last remaining aunt if she remembers.
 
Japanfan said:
So what is the significance of having your father walk you down the aisle, then?

And why just your father? Why not your mother as well?
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Because (edit: Western) society still favors a male/female binary and opposite sex pairing. (edit: whether that is shown via wedding traditions or not; but it is IMO, clearly where this particular, often Christian, tradition comes from)

I know a number of people who have had both their mother and their father, or only their mother walk them down the aisle.

Only my father walked me- but it was his way to participate in the wedding. My mother planned the whole thing. I think if I got married now, I'd ask them both to do it. I don't like the message that a woman always has to pair with a man, even if I choose to.
 
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Skittl1321 said:
Because society still favors a male/female binary and opposite sex pairing.
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What is "society" in this context? At a Jewish wedding, the bride and groom are each normally accompanied to the chuppah by their respective parents. Are Jews not part of "society"? [/HASKALAH]
 
Vagabond said:
What is "society" in this context? At a Jewish wedding, the bride and groom are each normally accompanied to the chuppah by their respective parents. Are Jews not part of "society"? [/HASKALAH]
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Do Jews favor male/female binary and opposite sex pairing? If so, even without following the described action of a man walking a woman down the aisle, then I'd say they were part of that society.
If they don't have either that attribute, or the participate in the action described, then no, they would not be part of that particular society, which is dominant in western culture. The society I was defining was based on the attribute, not the action. The action is common as a result of the attribute.

"Society" is a term that describes a community. Most people are part of many societies, many of which are overlapping. It is unlikely that anyone fits every single trait of any particular society they are a member of.

(I'll note that I've only been to one Jewish wedding. Only her father walked her.)
 
Skittl1321 said:
Japanfan said:
So what is the significance of having your father walk you down the aisle, then?

And why just your father? Why not your mother as well?
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Because society still favors a male/female binary and opposite sex pairing.
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Skittl1321 said:
Do Jews favor male/female binary and opposite sex pairing? If so, even without following the described action of a man walking a woman down the aisle, then I'd say they were part of that society.
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Not everything has to conform to your paradigms, which appear to be based on limited familiarity with many facets of our complex society.
 
Vagabond said:
Not everything has to conform to your paradigms, which appear to be based on limited familiarity with many facets of our complex society.
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Well now you say "our society"- so who are YOU defining society as?
It's all cultural construct. People belong to many different societies. I didn't say humankind.

Where did I say ANYTHING has to conform to my paradigms? I couldn't care less who walks someone down the aisle, or if people get married at all. But in "western-society" a large, possibly majority of people do have a male walk the bride down the aisle (I will admit, I don't know much about traditional eastern, or other non-western, societies. So it may be true for them too). So I can edit my post to say "western society"- and I would certainly say Jews are 100% a part of western society, and even if they don't, as a norm, do their weddings this way, I'd still say they favor a male/female binary, unless you'd like to point me to information that disputes that.
 
Vagabond said:
I asked you first.

If I ever get an answer to my question, I may be able to respond to yours.

I can say that "society" is not Protestantism.
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I'm not protestant, and I have never been protestant, so if you think I'm framing everything with that view, it is only because US society has heavy historical protestant influence.

I said that the society I was talking about is one that prefers a male/female binary with opposite-sex pairings, which is by and large western society, and from my knowledge would include Jewish people. It is the view point of this society that makes frames the idea of a woman being escorted by a man, and until she has a partner, her father. Whether or not every member of this society participates in this tradition (as you say most Jewish people don't) doesn't change the notion (notion, not fact) that the tradition likely stems from the viewpoint of the society that historically a woman should be accompanied by a man.

There is no one society.
 
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