Bobrova and Soloviev out of Worlds

[Ania]

Thinking of Bobrova's situation, I'm reminded of a story Oksana Chusovitina told to explain, in part, why she moved to Germany to get treatment for her son when he had cancer. She said at a major hospital in either Russia or Uzbekistan (can't remember), the chemotherapy drugs were replaced with placebos and sold on the black market by someone with access to the medicine. So children were put through chemo, or so they thought, but received placebos and died.

My family and I dealt with the same issue (for a different medical condition) 3 times in the 23 years I lived in Russia. In my experience, this is something quite common.

Everyone in Russia is feeling the pinch economically. With Bobrova clearly receiving this injection at Euros, only weeks after the drug was banned, it wouldn't surprise me if someone - realizing there was suddenly no market for Meldonium - labeled it as something else, just so it could be sold.

This possibility has not occurred to me, but I can easily imagine it happening.

 

[kittyjake5]

I know that this has been already discussed in this thread (sorry brain freeze here) but what was the reason
Bobrova gave in her statement for taking this drug?

 

[altai_rose]

Drugs are prescribed for conditions other than the written indications of the drug, but even then they are only prescribed because there's good evidence that the drug a) works to treat the condition and b) will not harm the patient more than any similar drug or the untreated condition

I agree with most of your post, but I just want to point out that drugs are not uncommonly prescribed even with lack of solid medical evidence for efficacy, because 1) this is how your attending or the hospital has been doing it for the past 30 years; 2) it's difficult to do a good study because of the population (clinical trials on pregnant women... umm, good luck getting approval) or the characteristics of the disease (headaches -- relies on self-reporting; rare diseases); and 3) cost issues (prescribing the drug that costs $100 versus the drug studied in clinical trials that costs $50,000...)

My family and I dealt with the same issue (for a different medical condition) 3 times in the 23 years I lived in Russia. In my experience, this is something quite common.

It's not uncommon in China as well. There's a general mistrust of doctors in China, because clearly, doctors are only there to make money out of you......

 

[dinakt]

My family and I dealt with the same issue (for a different medical condition) 3 times in the 23 years I lived in Russia. In my experience, this is something quite common.



This possibility has not occurred to me, but I can easily imagine it happening.

Possible. Supposedly meldonium is much cheaper than the currently legal alternative, so manipulations are not out of question.

 

[sus2850]

A question: Did Bobrova say she thought she was being injected with a substance called Actovegin by this doctor during Euros? And did she also say that Actovegin, whatever that is, is only legal when not injected? Sounds odd.

 

[Xela M]

A question: Did Bobrova say she thought she was being injected with a substance called Actovegin by this doctor during Euros? And did she also say that Actovegin, whatever that is, is only legal when not injected? Sounds odd.

No. Actoveign is perfectly legal.

 

[Xela M]

The thing that's odd to me is that B&S immedeately said there was foul play. They could have just waited for the results of the investigation or stated that it could have been a mistake, but Dima was quite clear in what he said

 

[Kultakissu]

No. Actoveign is perfectly legal.

https://www.asada.gov.au/news/what-current-status-actovegin

Actovegin is not prohibited in sport under the WADA List of Prohibited Substances and Methods except if it is used by intravenous infusion/injection according to section M2 (Chemical and Physical Manipulation) of the List.

 

[pp55]

No. Actoveign is perfectly legal.

It depends.

WADA has not placed Actovegin on its prohibited list but investigations into its possible use as a performance enhancer are continuing. It is forbidden, however, to take it intravenously as per WADA’s prohibited methods: “Intravenous infusions and/or injections of more than 50 mL per six-hour period are prohibited except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions or clinical investigations.”

 

[Xela M]

How is Sharapova's case sketchy? If she knew in advance it would be pretty stupid to continue to take the drug.

I can completely understand how she wouldn't be concerned about a drug called Mildronate, she has taken 10 years for health reasons, and not understand it's this "serious doping drug" according to WADA called Meldronium. I hope she is vindicated after providing her doctor's records.

Maybe she took it off and on for 10 years and only took it the 4-6 weeks before the test. We don't know. Also, "the company said Tuesday that it believed the substance would not enhance athletes' performance in competition and might even do the opposite."

Sharapova's case is VERY sketchy.

This is the highest earning female athlete in the world whose whole career (and hundreds of millions of dollars in sponsorship contracts) depend on her NOT failing doping tests. And she expects us to believe that all that was put at risk because she forgot to click on an email link from WADA. I will never believe it.

 

[aftershocks]

I wish it had been anyone but Bobrova. Nikita for example would not have shed a tear from me. Bobrova is so unfair

Ha ha, but maybe Nikita is smarter to not take unknown "suppoting injections" from Russia fed doctors 12 hours prior to a competition. I mean smarter to be on the safe side re any kind of "drug taking," or being a figure skater associated with anyone from another sport who is or has been involved in drug taking.

Too bad for Bobrova/Soloviev, but shouldn't all skaters be careful about anything they are or have been taking, especially in light of what they witnessed that recently happened to Carolina?! Bobrova admitting she knew about the problems with Meldonium, I think she should have been extra cautious about taking ANYTHING drug-related immediately after she learned about the Meldonium situation last fall. Regarding any kind of endurance issues, athletes obviously need to find other strategic training-related ways to solve.

 

[skatfan]

Sharapova's case is VERY sketchy.

This is the highest earning female athlete in the world whose whole career (and hundreds of millions of dollars in sponsorship contracts) depend on her NOT failing doping tests. And she expects us to believe that all that was put at risk because she forgot to click on an email link from WADA. I will never believe it.

I agree- she has people for this kind of thing.

 

[sus2850]

https://www.asada.gov.au/news/what-current-status-actovegin

Actovegin is not prohibited in sport under the WADA List of Prohibited Substances and Methods except if it is used by intravenous infusion/injection according to section M2 (Chemical and Physical Manipulation) of the List.

It depends.

WADA has not placed Actovegin on its prohibited list but investigations into its possible use as a performance enhancer are continuing. It is forbidden, however, to take it intravenously as per WADA’s prohibited methods: “Intravenous infusions and/or injections of more than 50 mL per six-hour period are prohibited except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions or clinical investigations.”

That is what I meant was said before (but it was not from her interview, so she might not have known this "no injection" part...).

It is a shame, I like her as a person.

 

[altai_rose]

Too bad for Bobrova/Soloviev, but shouldn't all skaters be careful about anything they are or have been taking, especially in light of what they witnessed that recently happened to Carolina?! Bobrova admitting she knew about the problems with Meldonium, I think she should have been extra cautious about taking ANYTHING drug-related immediately after she learned about the Meldonium situation last fall.

Being extra cautious does not mean that mistakes or accidents will not happen (I'm assuming here that Bobrova did not purposely take the drug).

 

[Vagabond]

In principle I agree with the fact that getting vitamin shots before competing is strange, is it something skaters do in general?

Vitamin shots? No.

"Vitamin shots"? Some do, but, as far as I know, not in general.

 

[aftershocks]

Being extra cautious does not mean that mistakes or accidents will not happen (I'm assuming here that Bobrova did not purposely take the drug).

By 'extra cautious,' I mean stop taking any drugs or injections that are not approved or that are not medically necessary or happen to be on a WADA-banned list. Don't trust doctors who are "in a hurry" at the rink, and you don't know what's in the syringe. Such 'extra cautious' course of action might be a pretty good way to avoid drug-taking-related "mistakes or accidents."

 

[Vash01]

We are not used to seeing a team event in FS, that's all. In gymnastics nobody questions a team gold. It receives the same respect as any other Olympic gold. It is sad to see FS fans not respecting their own sport. I don't remember the name of the US gymnast who was highly publicized as a potential all around gold in gymnastics but didn't win anything but the team gold. She is still an Olympic gold medallist.

(Quoting my own post)

OT:

Gymnastics experts: Was it Kim Zemanskl? (not sure of the spelling)

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

(Quoting my own post)

OT:

Gymnastics experts: Was it Kim Zemanskl? (not sure of the spelling)

I think you're thinking of Jordyn Wieber? Went into 2012 as the World AA champ from 2011 but didn't even qualify for the AA final in London. The US gold was her "only" medal. She was a heavy favourite to win a few medals at least.

Zmeskal is from way back - she was a favourite to win the 92 olympics but was off form the whole time - I think she was about 10th in the end. The US team won the bronze - also her only medal.

ETA: @leafygreens answered a few pages back

 

[Erin]

(Quoting my own post)

OT:

Gymnastics experts: Was it Kim Zemanskl? (not sure of the spelling)

Zmeskal. And no. Someone already answered you upthread that it was Jordyn Wieber. Do you ever read?

 

[BittyBug]

IWADA has not placed Actovegin on its prohibited list but investigations into its possible use as a performance enhancer are continuing. It is forbidden, however, to take it intravenously as per WADA’s prohibited methods: “Intravenous infusions and/or injections of more than 50 mL per six-hour period are prohibited except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions or clinical investigations.”

That is what I meant was said before (but it was not from her interview, so she might not have known this "no injection" part...).

It doesn't say "no injection," it says "no injections of more than 50 ml per six-hour period." We don't know what dose she was taking.

 

[ballettmaus]

Just a quick question: is this drug in question a beta-blocker? Any connection to performance anxieties?

My French isn't s good as my English but if I understood correctly, the drug monitors stress levels and slows the lactation of the muscles which mean that they tire slower. Considering that runners who need stamina have tested positive, it makes sense and if the guy who invented it claims it's not performance enhancing then he clearly has no idea what goes into a performance and that stamina is a part of performance. And if muslces are less sore, the quicker the recovery.

 

[Yazmeen]

Just a quick question: is this drug in question a beta-blocker? Any connection to performance anxieties?

No. Here is the technical mechanism of action: Mildronate was designed to inhibit carnitine biosynthesis in order to prevent accumulation of cytotoxic intermediate products of fatty acid beta-oxidation in ischemic tissues and to block this highly oxygen-consuming process. In plain speak, it prevents buildup of toxic metabolic products that eat up oxygen in heart muscle that has diminished blood flow.

Beta-blockers antagonise the effects of sympathetic nerve stimulation or circulating catecholamines at beta-adrenoceptors which are widely distributed throughout body systems. including these types of receptors in the heart. Completely different MOA.

 

[Yazmeen]

Also, in reference to another couple of comments. When I was a practicing clinical physician, I could prescribe a patient a drug for an approved indication for its use, or I could prescribe it for some other reason than its indications (referred to as off-label usage). However, if I did that, I better have a damn good reason for doing so and it better have good documentation in the patient's records as to why I did that along with how the patient reacted and did on the drug.

I looked up meldonium on PubMed (main source for medical journal articles), and there were only 2 articles related to sports. One link didn't provide much as the actual article was in Russian: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24340769

The other dealt with the testing methods used to detect it after it was used by an athlete: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25847280

 

[Carolla5501]

I read this with shock that apparently these skaters are just letting random people inject them with drugs. And then I wandered down the hall to ask my coworker whose son is an elite level athlete (not skating) and she was honestly shocked. Her son has received injections to assist with soreness etc but only from his physician as part of an ongoing care and treatment for injuries (at that level who doesn't have injuries?), but they would never allow anyone else to do something like this on kind of a routine basis and she indicated the athletes are counseled against accepting treatment from event physicians just for this reason by their governing body before any international events....

 

[Xela M]

I read this with shock that apparently these skaters are just letting random people inject them with drugs. And then I wandered down the hall to ask my coworker whose son is an elite level athlete (not skating) and she was honestly shocked. Her son has received injections to assist with soreness etc but only from his physician as part of an ongoing care and treatment for injuries (at that level who doesn't have injuries?), but they would never allow anyone else to do something like this on kind of a routine basis and she indicated the athletes are counseled against accepting treatment from event physicians just for this reason by their governing body before any international events....

What do you mean "random people"?!

It's not some Tom Dick or Harry who injected Bobrova, it was the Russian team doctor from Mozer's group who stood in for her own physician who couldn't travel with them. How is that a random person?!

 

[Carolla5501]

Zmeskal. And no. Someone already answered you upthread that it was Jordyn Wieber. Do you ever read?

Do you go out of your way to be rude?

 

[Carolla5501]

What do you mean "random people"?!

It's not some Tom Dick or Harry who injected Bobrova, it was the Russian team doctor from Mozer's group who stood in for her own physician who couldn't travel with them. How is that a random person?!

According to my co-worker, "if we don't personally know the physician and he is not actively involved in our son's care, it's a random person" She was dead serious. Their son would not allow this unless by his doctor or possibly an offically appointed physician from the US Governing body for his sport. Physicians with other teams etc would not be presumed to know the details of his care, conditions, injuries etc.... According to her you accept "emergency" medical help from them not routine maintenance which is sounds like these shots were.

She went on to point out that the offical team physician accompanying a team to an event would have complete health histories and be briefed on any treatments her son might require.

I don't feel comfortable giving out the sport, but I will say it's a sport that's had more then one instance of doping allegations (and it involves water ) She knows people who have been thrown out for doping and believes that in at least one case it was a "helpful" physician who unintentionally gave the kid the wrong type of cold medication that created a huge problem for the kid when he failed his doping test. So....

 

[Erin]

Do you go out of your way to be rude?

Not normally. But I admit to having little patience with someone who (a) repeatedly offends in this regard and (b) also gets on other people's cases for not reading. I'm actually repeating her own words from earlier in the thread.

 

[MsZem]

I looked up meldonium on PubMed (main source for medical journal articles), and there were only 2 articles related to sports. One link didn't provide much as the actual article was in Russian: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24340769

The other dealt with the testing methods used to detect it after it was used by an athlete: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25847280

What kind of risks would be involved in using this drug regularly/occasionally? I'm genuinely curious - as I noted yesterday, my focus tends to be on how great a risk a drug might pose to athletes rather than how much it might enhance their performance/ability to train.

According to my co-worker, "if we don't personally know the physician and he is not actively involved in our son's care, it's a random person" She was dead serious. Their son would not allow this unless by his doctor or possibly an offically appointed physician from the US Governing body for his sport. Physicians with other teams etc would not be presumed to know the details of his care, conditions, injuries etc.... According to her you accept "emergency" medical help from them not routine maintenance which is sounds like these shots were.

So if her son were at a competitive event in a foreign country, she'd rather have him receive no treatment than be treated by the team doctor who is the regular physician for a number of athletes on the team?

When doping cases come to light, there's always a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking, and people seem very confident that they would have known better. This tends to overlook the fact that we have information that was not available to the athletes in real time (e.g. the saga of Kostner and her ex-boyfriend). Assuming Bobrova is being honest about her history with this substance - I don't see why she should have been suspicious of the team doctor.

 

[altai_rose]

Also, in reference to another couple of comments. When I was a practicing clinical physician, I could prescribe a patient a drug for an approved indication for its use, or I could prescribe it for some other reason than its indications (referred to as off-label usage). However, if I did that, I better have a damn good reason for doing so and it better have good documentation in the patient's records as to why I did that along with how the patient reacted and did on the drug.

I think it's always important to document the reasoning behind why a drug was prescribed, regardless of whether it's off label or not. Regarding off-label use, I guess it's just so prevalent in certain specialities (specifically, neurology and psychiatry) that it doesn't feel unusual or atypical to me.

According to my co-worker, "if we don't personally know the physician and he is not actively involved in our son's care, it's a random person" She was dead serious. Their son would not allow this unless by his doctor or possibly an offically appointed physician from the US Governing body for his sport. Physicians with other teams etc would not be presumed to know the details of his care, conditions, injuries etc.... According to her you accept "emergency" medical help from them not routine maintenance which is sounds like these shots were.

She went on to point out that the offical team physician accompanying a team to an event would have complete health histories and be briefed on any treatments her son might require.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. But in Bobrova's case, the 'official team physician' may have been, or may have included, the physician from Mozer's group. It's not like Bobrova went to the French team physician for treatment.