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NadineWhite
01-18-2013, 03:47 AM
Can't believe there's even a question, Dick Button of course, hands down. Period.


Btw, David Jenkins 3axel was G-O-R-G-E-O-U-S!!!!! :respec::encore::hat1::cool:

Kasey
01-18-2013, 05:58 AM
Other: First wuz-robbed of jump history (Sabovcik's 4T jump in competition a year or two before Browning's that wasn't ratified due to camera angle)

Vagabond
01-18-2013, 07:27 AM
National pride ? PML ! So, I guess you're from Japan ! ;)

日本人じゃないよ. アメリカのデスよ. :P

(For those who don't know, I'm an American and not particularly a fan of either Ando or Bonaly.)


On this video you're talking about, you can clearly see she ends the rotation at 3.5 turn, then finishes the jumps on the ice.
http://youtu.be/Fi1331g-qcI?t=24s

Okay, I confess. I watched this video a few times too many and got mixed up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR68Q4X45hg

:o

The video in Post #1 isn't from the Junior Grand Prix Final; I think it's from 2003-04 Japanese Nationals. The JGPF jump is shown at about 15 seconds into the video to which I have linked. To my eye, it looks like four full rotations. As for most of the other attempts on that video, the less said the better. :shuffle:


Surya Bonaly's 4Toe are not any better, though.


I feel bad for Surya Bonaly, she would have been credited for the first quad.

Make up your mind.

gkelly
01-18-2013, 05:16 PM
Well, if Bonaly's and Ando's attempts were equally bad, then either neither of them should be credited or Bonaly's should be credited as the first quad by a woman because it was earlier, and Ando could get "first quad salchow by a woman."

Akira Andrea
01-18-2013, 09:10 PM
Well, if Bonaly's and Ando's attempts were equally bad, then either neither of them should be credited or Bonaly's should be credited as the first quad by a woman because it was earlier, and Ando could get "first quad salchow by a woman."

I'm sorry but I can't agree your opinion which assume that Ando's attempt was bad, because it's an unquestionable fact on the history that Ando' attempt had been credited by ISU.

The quotation from Surya Bonaly's wikipedia

She is also known for having attempted a quadruple toe loop jump at the 1991 World Figure Skating Championships ? the first and only female skater to have done so. Though she landed the jump, she was not fully rotated in the air and had to complete the rotation on the ice, making it a triple and not a quadruple jump. Bonaly was never credited with successfully landing the jump by the International Skating Union.
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=ja&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSurya_Bon aly

The quotation from Miki Ando's wikipedia

Ando made history the next season at the 2002-2003 Junior Grand Prix Final, when she landed a quadruple salchow and became the first female skater to land a quadruple jump of any kind in a competition. She remains the only lady ever to perform this feat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miki_Ando

Katarzyna
01-18-2013, 10:41 PM
I voted for Midori Ito! The time when she started landing triples axels some men would have killed someone to have that kind of jump. :)

Maofan7
01-18-2013, 11:28 PM
The video in Post #1 isn't from the Junior Grand Prix Final; I think it's from 2003-04 Japanese Nationals. The JGPF jump is shown at about 15 seconds into the video to which I have linked. To my eye, it looks like four full rotations.

Thanks for clearing that up Vagabond and apologies for the error. The link in post 1 is from the Junior Japanese Nationals 2003/04 and has not been properly labelled by the YouTube uploader. Apologies for not noticing.

Here is the correct link again (thanks again, Vagabond):-

Miki Ando - JGPF 2002/03 - 4S (First & Only Quad Jump By A Lady) - 15 seconds in (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR68Q4X45hg)


I know it's not on the list, but David Jenkins' 3axel in 1957! :eek: It wouldn't be landed in competition for more than 20 years, and not with as good of a landing (OK, David's takeoff is a funky looking and pre-rotated, but come on :P).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI

Unfortunately, Jenkins never performed it in competition. Hence, for the purposes of this thread it does not count, as the thread only focuses on competition firsts. Nevertheless, as you point out, he landed it over 20 years before it was landed in competition. Hence, extremely impressive!!

Proustable
01-19-2013, 12:23 AM
Most significant: Dick Button
Most impressive: David Jenkins

Nours
01-19-2013, 02:20 AM
But Bonaly's quad at 1991 worlds was sooo close to be fully rotated, only a very tiny less than a 1/4 rotated on the ice for me. It should had been credited.
I never liked Ando and her performances disapeared from my memory as soon as she was leaving the ice but I have to say she must be credited for trying quads. Her attemp at 08 GPF was nice. The thing is I'm always a bit reluctant to call a jump a quad when you almost do one revolution on the ice. The landing is almost the same as Bonaly's at 1991, just the tiny bit more, though the video's quality isn't great. And a big laugh at wikipedia entries ! Seriously, does anyone trust such websites ? Why not trusting Google too. It's not because "journalist" does it we should all do it. Anyway anything is good to poo on Bonaly back then & now.
As for the one credited by the ISU, it's nowhere near a full quad for me. She starts the jump facing it (yes, I know, it's a salchow, still more than 1/3 on the ice before jumping is too much to credit anything) and the landing is clearly not complete. The video isn't very good though.
It's a matter of who performed them rather than how it was performed, and in Bonaly's case it's easy to see why it wasn't ratified. What I don't understand is why they didn't give Sabovcik his quad.

The first quad for men IMO is either Sabovcik or if you think it wasn't then it's Urmanov, I can't think of somebody else trying them successfully enough in between.
Didier Guaillaguet in one of his early book ("Les secrets du patinage" writed with Jean Marquet, 1979) says Ronnie Robertson landed several triple axel during training sessions. He also says Ronnie landed a quad loop in 1974 on Lake Placid's olympic ice. He saw this one by himself and actually taped it. R.R. was 37 yo.

As for the triple toe, DG saw Tom Litz landing one during his 1964 olympic FS. Actually I never thought about it but there was such a huge hype surrounding the men event that year in France, because of Calmat, that I'm pretty sure they have a nice coverage of it. One more lost treasure (and pretty sure we can add 1964 euros in Grenoble to the list too).
Last bit which is not really related to this thread (sorry) : he says Nepela fell once within eight long years of internationals competitions :respec:.

gkelly
01-19-2013, 03:33 AM
Didier Guaillaguet in one of his early book ("Les secrets du patinage" writed with Jean Marquet, 1979) says Ronnie Robertson landed several triple axel during training sessions. He also says Ronnie landed a quad loop in 1974 on Lake Placid's olympic ice. He saw this one by himself and actually taped it. R.R. was 37 yo.

I skimmed through that book in 1998 and was surprised to read that part. I mentioned it on rec.sport.skating.ice.figure, and one of the other posters there who skated at the rink where Robertson was teaching at the time asked him about. Robertson did confirm that he had done quad loops.

Akira Andrea
01-19-2013, 05:04 AM
Under the old judging system, Miki Ando is the only woman whom ISU gave credit for having succeeded in the quad jump.
It is true that ISU evaluated the Miki Ando's quad under the 'new judging system' as the under-rotated jump, nevertheless it is not fair to compare the 'Miki Ando's under-rotated quad' under the new judging system with the 'Surya Bonary's under-rotated quad' under 'the old judging system' as the equal attempt.
Under the new judging system, it is because the risk which the player in case of having failed the attempt may suffer increased remarkably than before.

It is the obvious cause that no woman came to challenge the quad jump except Miki Ando after having adopted the new judging system.
Under the new judging system, Miki Ando could not succeed in the quad, but she was evaluated as having succeeded in the under-rotated quad by ISU at least.

Under the new judging system, there is no woman whom ISU gave credit for having succeeded in the quad jump, and Miki Ando is the only woman whom ISU evaluated as having succeeded in the under-rotated quad jump.

Ziggy
01-19-2013, 08:48 AM
It annoys me to no end that Miki Ando is credited as the "first and only lady to have landed a quad" when her "quad" salchow was nowhere near fully rotated. :mad:

Out of those listed, I'd pick Ito's incredible, huge and solid 3axel. :)

bardtoob
01-19-2013, 09:09 AM
delete

briancoogaert
01-19-2013, 03:27 PM
Make up your mind.
My opinion is that Surya's and Miki's quads are equally as under-rotated.
So, if Miki, why not Surya ? ;)

Mafke
01-19-2013, 05:45 PM
Ladies:

Most important =

gold - Colledge (first to make jumps an important part of ladies skating)
silver - Burka (first triple)
bronze - Biellmann

most impressive = Ito! (since 3ax are still so rare for ladies her jump isn't necessarily so significant)

most robbed = Bonaly (I think they just flat out decided ahead of time they weren't going to ratify any attempt of hers)

Men (most important)

gold - Button (invented modern freeskating
silver - Taylor (since 3ax's became so important for men)
bronze - Filipowski (more's the pity that 3-3's aren't more imporant for men than big ugly quads

most impressive = Jenkins! (honestly! considering that jump training was so basic then his 3ax is about the equivalent of a 4-4 (or quint) would be now)

most robbed = Sabovcik